Drag queens banned from Pride event 'because they may offend transgender people' - Polidicks

Seriously, am I missing something in this thread? Where are all the trans people hating on drag queens? I've seen a couple of people complaining on the first page, and ever since then it's been everybody complaining about that. I'm a transgender socialist, leaning on communism, and I [I]still[/I] think it's fucking ridiculous that drag queens have been banned from this event. I understand that not everybody is like me, but I think you guys are kind of grasping at straws here.

[QUOTE=SpartanApples;48262642][IMG]https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11745460_10207244593059629_812653426813800682_n.jpg?oh=b3fb195eb1b07fb7b1337b62c4a70c09&oe=561D9E71[/IMG] This was on their facebook, what a joke.[/QUOTE] Wow. Discrimination against cis people. Guess prides been taken over by a certain group. I imagine a cis-drag can simply just start identifying as trans but this is silly.

have you actually any idea why free pride exists let's take it back down to what it is - a free pride. a pride where you don't have to pay for a ticket to stand about in a shitty rain soaked park in glasgow to show off being who you are they asked their trans & non-binary members "are you cool with drag queens?" and they went "nah" so they went "okay so judging from the people who actually know about trans issues and what is transphobic and harmful we're gonna listen to them and say no drag performances" and then people started giving them racist and sexist abuse (mainly from white cis gay men, also a bunch of straight folk) they're trying to help marginalised folk (i.e. trans people, people of colour) have a say about [I]their[/I] pride since it's generally white cis gay men who dominate the organising. it's not oppression, it's not a big victim complex coming into play, it's a bunch of people who don't like the commercialisation of pride trying to have a good time of it and trying to do it in a sensible and sensitive way

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48263056]Seriously, am I missing something in this thread? Where are all the trans people hating on drag queens? I've seen a couple of people complaining on the first page, and ever since then it's been everybody complaining about that. I'm a transgender socialist, leaning on communism, and I [I]still[/I] think it's fucking ridiculous that drag queens have been banned from this event. I understand that not everybody is like me, but I think you guys are kind of grasping at straws here.[/QUOTE] I think it's because the people on the front page are disgustingly prejudiced enough to warrant a discussion. I say, good on you for holding the opinion you do. Everyone should be allowed to do what they want so long as it doesn't harm others.

People on the first couple of pages are upset that drag queens put trans people in a bad light, but it's the media that has blurred the line. The drag queens aren't out to make a statement.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;48263083]I think it's because the people on the front page are disgustingly prejudiced enough to warrant a discussion. I say, good on you for holding the opinion you do. Everyone should be allowed to do what they want so long as it doesn't harm others.[/QUOTE] It's just the hateful trans people, the article and then that facebook post combined.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48263001]DohEntertainment, I agree with some of what you're saying but trans people can't be 'solved' with therapy in the same way gay people can't. Through brute force, the thoughts can be repressed, but that leads to major depression and a very high suicide rate. Recent research has suggested that trans people are biologically different from cis people due to processes which take place during foetal development, and their brains are closer to that of their preferred gender than their biological sex. Not all trans people choose to have surgery or even take hormones, and some indeed do choose to remain presenting as the sex they were designated at birth, but the issue is more complicated than 'wanting to be special'. [...] [/QUOTE] Without going too far into that territory, I think there is also something to be said about modern 'trans culture'. For a doctor to prescribe you medication, you have to be diagnosed with something right? I don't imagine it super healthy to be going through puberty/young stages of your life and existing in an echo chamber that says to 'get on horomones asap no rocky'. Given, the supportive nature of these circles of thinking is preferable to the societal response which is 'fag' more or less, but like anything else dealing with sexuality it's a personal journey. Also I'd like to see said research, honestly. [QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263077]have you actually any idea why free pride exists let's take it back down to what it is - a free pride. a pride where you don't have to pay for a ticket to stand about in a shitty rain soaked park in glasgow to show off being who you are they asked their trans & non-binary members "are you cool with drag queens?" and they went "nah" so they went "okay so judging from the people who actually know about trans issues and what is transphobic and harmful we're gonna listen to them and say no drag performances" and then people started giving them racist and sexist abuse (mainly from white cis gay men, also a bunch of straight folk) they're trying to help marginalised folk (i.e. trans people, people of colour) have a say about [I]their[/I] pride since it's generally white cis gay men who dominate the organising. it's not oppression, it's not a big victim complex coming into play, it's a bunch of people who don't like the commercialisation of pride trying to have a good time of it and trying to do it in a sensible and sensitive way[/QUOTE] So you think 'having a say' should extend to the ability to exclude an entire group of people? v:v:v

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263077]have you actually any idea why free pride exists let's take it back down to what it is - a free pride. a pride where you don't have to pay for a ticket to stand about in a shitty rain soaked park in glasgow to show off being who you are they asked their trans & non-binary members "are you cool with drag queens?" and they went "nah" so they went "okay so judging from the people who actually know about trans issues and what is transphobic and harmful we're gonna listen to them and say no drag performances" and then people started giving them racist and sexist abuse (mainly from white cis gay men, also a bunch of straight folk) they're trying to help marginalised folk (i.e. trans people, people of colour) have a say about [I]their[/I] pride since it's generally white cis gay men who dominate the organising. it's not oppression, it's not a big victim complex coming into play, it's a bunch of people who don't like the commercialisation of pride trying to have a good time of it and trying to do it in a sensible and sensitive way[/QUOTE] But mate, that [I]is[/I] discrimination and there's no way to pretend it's not. If the same thing happened with the Gay and Lesbian community banning Transsexual performers the crossdressers of facepunch would be throwing a shitfit, but because it's not [I]their[/I] group that is being discriminated, it's [I]just fine.[/I]

It is honestly just a tad a bit disappointing, right? A group that has struggled with oppression and shunning for almost the entirety of its existence now has people trying to represent them by oppressing and shunning certain types of people. I think the full circle analogy works very well here. I had hoped more for the human race.

[QUOTE=Mister_Jack;48263173] So you think 'having a say' should extend to the ability to exclude an entire group of people? v:v:v[/QUOTE] do you think they should go "yeah a bunch of us feel it would be really bloody hurtful to have a bunch of cis folk come and pretend gender is a massive joke" and the organising committee go "ah well, fuck em, bring on the queens" part of being inclusive means listening to marginalised people - trans folk don't have an advantage in pretty much any walk of life, cis drag queens turn the gender off and return to their everyday lives. [editline]21st July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;48263193]But mate, that [I]is[/I] discrimination and there's no way to pretend it's not. If the same thing happened with the Gay and Lesbian community banning Transsexual performers the crossdressers of facepunch would be throwing a shitfit, but because it's not [I]their[/I] group that is being discriminated, it's [I]just fine.[/I][/QUOTE] what

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263204]do you think they should go "yeah a bunch of us feel it would be really bloody hurtful to have a bunch of cis folk come and pretend gender is a massive joke" and the organising committee go "ah well, fuck em, bring on the queens" part of being inclusive means listening to marginalised people - trans folk don't have an advantage in pretty much any walk of life, cis drag queens turn the gender off and return to their everyday lives. [editline]21st July 2015[/editline] what[/QUOTE] So you feel NO shame WHAT SO EVER, dismissing an entire group, drag queens and kings, as being a "Massive joke"? Inclusive my fucking ass. You don't even understand drag culture if you think it's just a bunch of white gay or straight people making fun of it. They're themselves and you think you can just dismiss them as a "massive joke"? Jamsponge, this is the shit i'm talking about. This is straight up hateful, and you know you'd call it that if it was said about trans people, that they were a "massive joke".

[QUOTE=Levithan;48260908]except the heat that bigots spout actually lead to LGBT deaths and youths getting kicked out of their homes[/QUOTE] So it's okay for you to be a bigot because you aren't going to run any drags out of their homes? Or because your sweeping generalization is a realistic depiction of every single drag in the world? The guy you quoted was absolutely right. It's incredibly hypocritical to take this viewpoint.

[QUOTE=Mister_Jack;48263173]Without going too far into that territory, I think there is also something to be said about modern 'trans culture'. For a doctor to prescribe you medication, you have to be diagnosed with something right? I don't imagine it super healthy to be going through puberty/young stages of your life and existing in an echo chamber that says to 'get on horomones asap no rocky'. Given, the supportive nature of these circles of thinking is preferable to the societal response which is 'fag' more or less, but like anything else dealing with sexuality it's a personal journey. Also I'd like to see said research, honestly. So you think 'having a say' should extend to the ability to exclude an entire group of people? v:v:v[/QUOTE] Here's a [url=https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/]New Scientist article on transgender people having different brains[/url], and here is the well-sourced [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism"]Wikipedia article on causes of being transgender[/URL]. It should also be noted that trans people currently have to go through many, many stages before they are even given therapy, let alone hormones. I am currently in the process of waiting for my appointment where my doctor will confirm that I am experiencing gender dysphoria. I saw my GP about it in March, it is almost August, and I still don't even have a date for my appointment (which is about 100 miles across the country) yet. Then, I'll need numerous therapy and counselling sessions before they will give me hormones, through which I will be continuously monitored and checked up on. After a year, they will let me change my sex on my birth certificate, and after that, receive surgery. Trans people in the UK cannot receive hormones or even puberty blockers until they are 18 years old, and there are similar laws around the world. Nobody can be rushed into hormones (of which most of the effects bar some things like breast growth in trans women or, in trans men, voice deepening, are reversible if the hormones are stopped) without illegally buying hormones online.

I like watching drag, I think it's art. I love the effort put into the makeup and costumes. Literally though, my favorite show is also Ru Pauls Drag Race. [editline]21st July 2015[/editline] It also gives you perspective, one of the drag queens was talking about how he's really insecure with himself and getting into his drag character helps him overcome a lot of those insecurities because he gets to act out this character that's everything he's not.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48263224]So you feel NO shame WHAT SO EVER, dismissing an entire group, drag queens and kings, as being a "Massive joke"? Inclusive my fucking ass. You don't even understand drag culture if you think it's just a bunch of white gay or straight people making fun of it. They're themselves and you think you can just dismiss them as a "massive joke"? Jamsponge, this is the shit i'm talking about. This is straight up hateful, and you know you'd call it that if it was said about trans people, that they were a "massive joke".[/QUOTE] Yeah, I'm with you guys. I don't see many high-profile drag queens who treat it like a 'massive joke', but it's appalling that anybody is treating it as such. Just because it's a lifestyle choice rather than a condition from birth doesn't mean that one is welcome to mock it. It would be interesting to see what the festival's thoughts are on drag kings, though.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48263224]So you feel NO shame WHAT SO EVER, dismissing an entire group, drag queens and kings, as being a "Massive joke"? Inclusive my fucking ass. You don't even understand drag culture if you think it's just a bunch of white gay or straight people making fun of it. They're themselves and you think you can just dismiss them as a "massive joke"? Jamsponge, this is the shit i'm talking about. This is straight up hateful, and you know you'd call it that if it was said about trans people, that they were a "massive joke".[/QUOTE] i'm speculating from what i've seen about some of the reasoning behind it, not giving the party line or even pretending to know what's going on inside of the free pride org. didn't say that's even my opinion there but feel free to put words in my mouth. from what i know, a bunch of people said they aren't comfortable around it, as a group their views were taken on board and they went "we'd rather not have cis drag performers" like feel free to take this and grind it through the social justice machine and whine about damn sjw's taking away our freedom but if it's such a strong feeling for you, why not start your own free pride and not give a damn how anyone feels?

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263280]i'm speculating from what i've seen about some of the reasoning behind it, not giving the party line or even pretending to know what's going on inside of the free pride org. didn't say that's even my opinion there but feel free to put words in my mouth. from what i know, a bunch of people said they aren't comfortable around it, as a group their views were taken on board and they went "we'd rather not have cis drag performers" like feel free to take this and grind it through the social justice machine and whine about damn sjw's taking away our freedom but if it's such a strong feeling for you, [B]why not start your own free pride and not give a damn how anyone feels[/B]?[/QUOTE] Because that is the dumbest thing ever. Trans people were (rightfully so) fighting because nobody gave a damn how they felt before and now they just do the exact that thing that was done to them?

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263280]i'm speculating from what i've seen about some of the reasoning behind it, not giving the party line or even pretending to know what's going on inside of the free pride org. didn't say that's even my opinion there but feel free to put words in my mouth. from what i know, a bunch of people said they aren't comfortable around it, as a group their views were taken on board and they went "we'd rather not have cis drag performers" like feel free to take this and grind it through the social justice machine and whine about damn sjw's taking away our freedom but if it's such a strong feeling for you, why not start your own free pride and not give a damn how anyone feels?[/QUOTE] Because I think it's very foreshadowing of the type of community you want when you say "Well, yeah, we totally have every right to call ourselves inclusive, and push people out, and also mock them!" I'm calling out OBVIOUS hypocrisy where I see it. Now, if you want to tell me that I'm wrong to do so, lets hear it. Feel free to defend an obvious hypocrisy of exclusion whilst dancing all about saying "Look how inclusive I am". It's double think and double talk and it's just hypocrisy that I want people to notice. I'm LG[B]B[/B]T, I exist as part of the community. If they can say "no we don't want this" then I have the right to say "Isn't that hypocrisy?"

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263204]do you think they should go "yeah a bunch of us feel it would be really bloody hurtful to have a bunch of cis folk come and pretend gender is a massive joke" and the organising committee go "ah well, fuck em, bring on the queens" part of being inclusive means listening to marginalised people - trans folk don't have an advantage in pretty much any walk of life, cis drag queens turn the gender off and return to their everyday lives. [editline]21st July 2015[/editline] what[/QUOTE] So basically you say that transcommunity is just a big hugbox which don't want anyone else in it, no matter how different. Damn it son, this is the degree brought to us by being too progressive.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48263297]Because I think it's very foreshadowing of the type of community you want when you say "Well, yeah, we totally have every right to call ourselves inclusive, and push people out, and also mock them!" I'm calling out OBVIOUS hypocrisy where I see it. Now, if you want to tell me that I'm wrong to do so, lets hear it. Feel free to defend an obvious hypocrisy of exclusion whilst dancing all about saying "Look how inclusive I am". It's double think and double talk and it's just hypocrisy that I want people to notice. I'm LG[B]B[/B]T, I exist as part of the community. If they can say "no we don't want this" then I have the right to say "Isn't that hypocrisy?"[/QUOTE] bis are just fake gays anyway this movement is for excluded and marginalized people, now get the fuck out normie

You would be surprised how many times I've heard that about being bi. It's why I'm constantly critical of the Internet and real life lgbt communities because crap like that isn't important to them, I don't see it as high priority but it's not fun to not even fit into the lgbt community

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48262990]I'll be upfront with your pseudo intellectual ramble First off, we as humans, naturally divide into groups, with and against are natural elements in the human psyche as old as the human race itself. Dividing into "communes"(By the way, this is NOT the word for that as you mean "communities", not communes. Hence pseudo intellectual, you don't use whatever flowery word you want just because) is how we function at a basic level. Accepting, and acknowleding that we are actually different is, in my opinion, a fairly essential element to rational discourse. We're not the same, we're VERY alike, but we are not the same, and as both of us likely want to be seen as individuals rather than as a group, we acknowledge those differences. Doing so, in my opinion and likely in reality, is one of the ways we gain perspective. What you're asking, is the loss of all perspective. Plurality of views is a heavy topic to deal with, but it is also how we make sense of the world. If we don't acknowledge and accept what is different about us and our ideas, we can never, ever move forward. Those differences are the building blocks of our societies and our intelligence. Plurality of perspective. I agree that we shouldn't aggressively attack one another but I disagree whole heartedly with the assertion that people arguing over minutia or other details that they feel are important is wasteful or harmful. It is only so when it is taken too far. I don't feel like you're effectively communicating what you want to say to anyone when you use overly flowerly language. It doesn't work.[/QUOTE] Of course we're different, dammit, but we are all human. Nothing can change that. I firmly believe we have gone too far in this trite argument of rumors, scandal, and trivia now that things like TPP looms over us with not a soul speaking, and these people advertise "Free Pride" so all shout in glory. It's madness, I tell you. We should not divide by petty morality for the sake of liberalism, but creed, nature, and some sports teams. When everyone as different, nobody is unique. If nobody is invalidated, nobody is right. [QUOTE=WarriorWounds;48263197]It is honestly just a tad a bit disappointing, right? A group that has struggled with oppression and shunning for almost the entirety of its existence now has people trying to represent them by oppressing and shunning certain types of people. I think the full circle analogy works very well here. I had hoped more for the human race.[/QUOTE] This is why I believe that "doing what you feel" as a motto is doomed to fail. Eventually, we will succumb to conformity, and demand no change. The opposite can be said for conservatism.

"You can't do this because it offends me" is part of source of so many LGBT issues. How could you ever be so short sighted to go down the same path, when you are on the other side of the argument.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;48263056]Seriously, am I missing something in this thread? Where are all the trans people hating on drag queens? I've seen a couple of people complaining on the first page, and ever since then it's been everybody complaining about that. I'm a transgender socialist, leaning on communism, and I [I]still[/I] think it's fucking ridiculous that drag queens have been banned from this event. I understand that not everybody is like me, but I think you guys are kind of grasping at straws here.[/QUOTE] It was just really damn weird to open the thread and see 4 different trans people being bigots on the first page. The rest of the thread seems to be a reaction to that amazing opening. at least there are sensible people like you in the world, jamsponge.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;48263304]So basically you say that transcommunity is just a big hugbox which don't want anyone else in it, no matter how different. Damn it son, this is the degree brought to us by being too progressive.[/QUOTE] Full. Circle.

So, victory for LGBT but fuck anyone else that doesn't scheme into the idealized perception? It seems so very familiar. This thread is such a great example of the [I]expected[/I]. It's comforting to see supposedly open and equality seeking individuals reveal [URL="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_more_things_change,_the_more_they_stay_the_same"]how utterly alike they are to the previous generations[/URL] that they would so revile. These kind of official reactions like the OP, which I am sure will be the first of a great many in the years to come, will be good for sources in another few decades when we can cite how no one ever truly learns anything meaningful from history - - this despite living in the greatest informational era of humanity.

I guess Kathoeys are banned too?

[QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263077] and then people started giving them racist and sexist abuse (mainly from white cis gay men)[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=codenamecueball;48263077]it's generally white cis gay men who dominate the organising.[/QUOTE] I take it that "straight white males" just aren't as good as they used to be at being scary boogeymen?

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;48263458]I take it that "straight white males" just aren't as good as they used to be at being scary boogeymen?[/QUOTE] Extremists must need an enemy. It is simply so. As you delve deeper, your enemies must be from further within until you strike your very heart.

[QUOTE=DohEntertainmen;48263361] This is why I believe that "doing what you feel" as a motto is doomed to fail. Eventually, we will succumb to conformity, and demand no change. The opposite can be said for conservatism.[/QUOTE] What? Succumb to conformity, demand no change? Where are you pulling these left turns out of your ass from? Nothing you said there made any sense. I'm just pointing out that that stupid people who do stupid things are a problem, and you are trying to tie some weird pseudo-intellectual political ideology to it to push your weird agenda of an argument, don't include me thanks.