Libyan 'War' Megathread - Any news pertaining to surgical strikes is to be posted HERE
1,053 replies, posted
2125: A statement from Col Gaddafi is expected shortly on Libyan state television.
[img]http://imgkk.com/i/16h8.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=smurfy;28694557]Well maybe if 10 000 people are dead, the rebellion is failing and the leader of the country has vowed to systematically execute every single one of them.
The number of people who have died in the Libyan uprising is more than ten times that of all the other Arab protests combined.[/QUOTE]Yeah, this is the foreign policy the U.S. needs. Don't jump in unless the situation is critical or unless the people are massively suffering and ask for help, then only stick around until the people can prop themselves up and get the hell out. If we stick around in these countries, or try to install our own leaders, we just piss the people off. If we help them, but let them run their own show, chances are they'll be thankful in the end.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;28694379]
Those systems were designed for taking out high-flying, fast aircraft like the SR-71 or bomber aircraft like B-52s, so i'd imagine it'd be a significant hindrance for those aircraft. Not sure how it bodes for smaller fighter/bomber aircraft, after all the French got theirs through unscathed.[/QUOTE]
Even though those kind of missiles WERE fired at cold war SR-71's and they didn't even come close to hitting them
Ok, 1 last informative post:
[quote]
On 17 March 2011 the UNSC voted to enforce a No-Fly Zone (NFZ) over Libya, in response to the conflict between Qaddafi's regime and separatist forces. The Libyan military operates numerous Soviet-era strategic SAM systems which represent the most likely threat to allied aircraft enforcing the NFZ. Libyan SAM systems include the S-75 (SA-2 GUIDELINE), S-125 (SA-3 GOA), and S-200 (SA-5 GAMMON). Numerous AAA, MANPADS', and tactical SAM systems are also operated, but represent a considerably reduced threat given their limited effectiveness above 20,000 feet.
LIBYAN SAM DEPLOYMENT
The graphic presented below illustrates the pre-conflict state of Libyan strategic air defenses. Major military airfields, active EW radar sites, and operational strategic SAM coverage zones are marked. It should be noted that the graphics presented here depict identified dedicated EW facilities. Many SAM batteries possess their own organic EW elements; simply targeting the known EW facilities does not necessarily prevent the SAM force from receiving the target track data necessary to prosecute an engagement.
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DeD3FURlcPw/TYRKd9j_i2I/AAAAAAAAC7A/jA6HFDidIeU/s1600/LIBYA%2BALL%2BLAYERS.jpg[/img]
The majority of contested territory is along the northern coastline of Libya, shown in the graphic below. This is advantageous to any allied aircraft entering the theater of operations, as they do not have to travel deep into Libya to enforce the NFZ in support of separatist forces. Furthermore, ISR and support aircraft can be operated offshore under the protection of CAPs and naval air defense systems.
[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2c0Ftj4hbX4/TYRKpHvbstI/AAAAAAAAC7I/vHbuDKa9GKo/s1600/ZOOMED%2BALL%2BLAYERS.jpg[/img]
Separatist forces are concentrated along the eastern coastline of the nation from Benghazi to Tobruk and the Egyptian border. As the air defense forces in these regions are likely no longer under Qaddafi's control, the graphic below indicates the likely pro-Qaddafi SAM threat picture facing NFZ operations.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V-xLoKYdQFk/TYRKu81RowI/AAAAAAAAC7Q/7okArV8LmjU/s1600/PROQADDAFI1.jpg[/img]
Numerous SAM garrisons and unoccupied, prepared strategic SAM sites present an opportunity for pro-Qaddafi forces to reinforce their positions prior to the start of NFZ operations. Reinforcing the strategic SAM network in this fashion will present an increased SAM threat to allied aircraft and offer increased overlapping coverage zones around key military installations. A potential reinforced pro-Qaddafi SAM network is illustrated in the graphic below.
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RQPaJmdgdEM/TYRKzzQqXAI/AAAAAAAAC7Y/vZtOBfKSqCo/s1600/PROQADDAFIREINFORCED.jpg[/img]
The majority of the command and control facilities for the pro-Qaddafi regime, as well as the seat of power, are consolidated in and around the capital of Tripoli. The following two graphics depict the current operational SAM network around Tripoli, as well as a potentially reinforced network employing currently inactive positions.
[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N9-vwTpaJnc/TYRK5j25P6I/AAAAAAAAC7g/eJBXDcR5ZyI/s1600/TRIPOLICLOSEUP.jpg[/img]
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GX_zEdoRpK0/TYRK9lwQSJI/AAAAAAAAC7o/S73OT6KJlaI/s1600/TRIPOLICLOSEUPREINFORCED.jpg[/img]
ENFORCING THE NFZ
The true nature of the SAM threat to NFZ operations will become apparent when operations commence. Should allied forces choose to enforce the NFZ over the entire region, it is likely that SEAD or DEAD operations will commence against the bulk of identified pro-Qaddafi SAM sites. However, should NFZ enforcement be limited initially to protecting separatist-controlled areas in the eastern portion of the nation, it is possible that few of the pro-Qaddafi SAM sites would be targeted as they would be unable to engage allied aircraft.
The exception to the latter scenario is the S-200. The S-200 enjoys a 250 km range against cooperative targets such as ISR and support aircraft. Given that allied aircraft will likely be based out of European territories or operate from USN CVNs, heavy use of inflight refueling should be expected. Eliminating pro-Qaddafi S-200 batteries would enable allied ISR and support aircraft to operate much closer to the Libyan coastline.
Should allied forces choose to enforce the NFZ over the entire nation and consequently engage active S-75 and S-125 SAM batteries, the capability of the pro-Qaddafi SAM network could be significantly degraded with a relatively small number of sorties. The Libyan SAM inventory is constrained by the reliance on Soviet-era systems. The S-75, S-125, and S-200 are limited by the fact that each engagement radar can only prosecute a single target. S-200 batteries are often bolstered by multiple 5N62 (SQUARE PAIR) engagement radars to allow the battery to engage multiple targets, but the single-target limitation significantly reduces the effectiveness of the network as a whole. Furthermore, over-reliance on aging technology places the network at significant risk for electronic warfare interference. The US military, for example, has faced the S-75 and S-125 over Iraq and the former Yugoslavia and is well-versed on countertactics and electronic attack procedures to mitigate the threat posed by such systems. While measures may have been taken to allow the S-75 and S-125 to remain viable in Libyan service, at this point they do not present significant risks to a modern military force. That is not to suggest that they present no risk whatsoever, but rather that they are no longer considered to be high-threat systems based on their age and known technical performance.
Aerial attacks against separatist positions appear to have been curtailed in favor of ground assault and artillery bombardment. In this light, the provision of the NFZ calling for protection of civillian under threat from pro-Qaddafi forces could allow operations over regime-controlled areas. A potential military campaign could begin with strikes against SAM positions and EW facilities, followed by strikes against pro-Qaddafi forces threatening or engaged with separatist forces, particularly those near Benghazi. Given the limited number of SAM sites located in territory held by the Qaddafi regime, it is likely that the capability of the strategic SAM network to prosecute targets could be significantly curtailed within 24 hours. Cruise missiles could be employed to strike identified SAM sites, forgoing the expense of a significant SEAD or DEAD operation and allowing combat aircraft to be tasked to protect separatist forces.
CONCLUSION
With the decision to enact a NFZ over Libya, the strategic SAM network represents the most significant threat to allied aircraft tasked with its enforcement. However, due to the single-target engagement capability of Libyan S-75 and S-125 batteries, the network is far less capable than it appears at first glance. Libya negotiated for the purchase of S-300PMU-2 (SA-20B GARGOYLE) advanced SAM systems from Russia in 2010 but at this date no sale has been completed and no deliveries have been reported. Had Libya moved to upgrade its air defense network in recent years, the issue of allied aircraft enforcing a NFZ could have become a far more complicated task. Once again, a nation relying on an aged air defense network will potentially be at risk in large part because it failed to upgrade its capability. As an interesting footnote, it will be important to monitor Iran following the cessation of action against Qaddafi's regime. Perhaps the destruction of yet another aging air defense network will be the final catalyst pushing Iran to modernize it's own defenses.
SOURCES
Positional information derived from Google Earth. Range data used to create engagement zones sourced from Jane's Land-Based Air Defence. Graphics created using GIMP 2.0.
[/quote]
Source:
[url]http://geimint.blogspot.com/2011/03/libyan-nfz-sam-threat.html[/url]
2131: Coalition forces have launched strikes against Mitiga air base outside the centre of Tripoli, Al-Jazeera reports.
Oh dear.
[QUOTE=Tac Error;28694571]
On another note, the SA-6 is the SAM that devastated Israeli air power during the Yom Kippur War. I wouldn't know how it would perform against today's jets though.[/QUOTE]
Probably worse. Active protection on Aircraft has come a long way in 30 years.
Ok, because of how tightly clustered and positioned the symbols near Tripoli were, it looked like nuclear signs at a glance and I was going to say something, then my shitty vision let me see that it was just a tight group of different symbols.
[QUOTE=MendozaMan;28694621]Even though those kind of missiles WERE fired at cold war SR-71's and they didn't even come close to hitting them[/QUOTE]Huh, my bad; I hadn't known they saw actual use against SR-71s
[QUOTE=Jsm;28694648]2131: Coalition forces have launched strikes against Mitiga air base outside the centre of Tripoli, Al-Jazeera reports.
Oh dear.[/QUOTE]
Oh dear?
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;28694699]Huh, my bad; I hadn't known they saw actual use against SR-71s[/QUOTE]
There was a thread in GD about an SR-71 mission flying into Libya through the "wall of death" AA system. The plane just outruns anything you can launch at it.
Gaddafi is apparently talking on state TV, Sky are playing the sound from it. Its horrible quality.
2136: Col Bob Stewart, the former United Nations commander in Bosnia, observes that resolution 1973 mandates "all necessary measures" to protect civilians. But doing this, he tells the BBC, may necessitate regime change. "The best defence for the people of Libya is for Gaddafi to go," he adds.
I actually hope the coalition does not kill Gaddafi themselves. It absolutely has to be the rebels who bring him to justice, who looses the axe strike, who tightens the noose.
Shits going down
oh god we're gonna be poor
[QUOTE=MendozaMan;28694621]Even though those kind of missiles WERE fired at cold war SR-71's and they didn't even come close to hitting them[/QUOTE]
Got a source for that?
See, I think its a good thing that its difficult for our aircraft to get shot down. Not just because of the potential loss of life and the destruction of an aircraft, but because if we do start seeing allied crafts shot down, it will just pressure the West in to sending in ground troops as retaliation. While ultimately it may be necessary, at this stage, it wouldn't be very good for anyone and could quite possibly turn against us.
[QUOTE=Ringo_Satu;28694135]I dunno, I could have made it unclear (sorry if I did), I meant armed rebels. What would you do if you were the ruler? You would just watch as the country is getting taken apart in armed rebelions? What's the army for then?
In conclussion, Libya should have left alone, it's disguisting how America has to put it's nose in everyone's bussiness.[/QUOTE]
God you are so dumb it hurts my heart.
[QUOTE=Tac Error;28694791]Got a source for that?[/QUOTE]
It's the fastest plane in the world and can fly twice as high as conventional planes. It's just impossible for a missile to get to it.
People on CNN.com already bitching about America being war hungry.
Just read that about 110 cruise missiles were launched at Gaddafi's SAM sites.
[QUOTE=OvB;28694874]It's the fastest plane in the world and can fly twice as high as conventional planes. It's just impossible for a missile to get to it.[/QUOTE]
No, I mean a source (as in official reports) that SA-5s were used against them.
lol, Gaddafi just released a statement saying he will arm 'ordinary citizens' en masse.
Gaddafi is actually smarter than he seems, really, if NATO forces attack citizens he arms loyal to him there are so many ways to spin that.
[QUOTE=Tac Error;28694918]No, I mean a source (as in official reports) that SA-5s were used against them.[/QUOTE]
Bah fuck, I can't find the thread anymore. It was about the story of one of the last SR-71 missions about the time it retired. They said they had to make a path correction that made them scrape the "wall of death" and multiple missiles were fired at them. They broke new speedrecords in order to escape them, and they were pretty sure only SA-5's could go that fast that they had to increase power. It was more of an assumption then a source, but they were pretty confident some higher tech SA's had been fired at them.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28694986]lol, Gaddafi just released a statement saying he will arm 'ordinary citizens' en masse.
Gaddafi is actually smarter than he seems, really, if NATO forces attack citizens he arms loyal to him there are so many ways to spin that.[/QUOTE]
well it depends if those in loyalist controlled cities are truly loyal to him, if they turn around and start shooting him he will regret it.
[QUOTE=Best4bond;28688382]So America Bitches (Canada and Australia) havent gone in after America?
Yet anyways...[/QUOTE]
yeah stupid american bitches trying to stop Second most Glorious Leader Ghadaffi from justly murdering his own civilians, who do they think they are
[QUOTE=MendozaMan;28695028]words.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1063618-How-a-Pilot-Risked-His-Life-To-Spy-On-Libya[/url]
This one?
Why dont the libyan rebels just send in a fake journalist for an interview with Gaddafi posing as someone from a bigger corporation, and then kill him when he is most vunerable?
[QUOTE=RagamuffinIIII;28695036]well it depends if those in loyalist controlled cities are truly loyal to him, if they turn around and start shooting him he will regret it.[/QUOTE]
I bet most of the people "loyal" to him are under some form of duress.
[QUOTE=MajorMattem;28695210]Why dont the libyan rebels just send in a fake journalist for an interview with Gaddafi posing as someone from a bigger corporation, and then kill him when he is most vunerable?[/QUOTE]
Not many people want to volunteer for a suicide mission.
[QUOTE=Zeddy;28694796]See, I think its a good thing that its difficult for our aircraft to get shot down. Not just because of the potential loss of life and the destruction of an aircraft, but because if we do start seeing allied crafts shot down, it will just pressure the West in to sending in ground troops as retaliation. While ultimately it may be necessary, at this stage, it wouldn't be very good for anyone and could quite possibly turn against us.[/QUOTE]
Or our culturally embedded belief that each individual is of inestimable value and our assumptions that a conventional military operation that is not successful as Desert Storm will be a failure could get the public to bitch and pull out if an allied jet does get shot down.
[QUOTE=WhyteclouD;28695151][url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1063618-How-a-Pilot-Risked-His-Life-To-Spy-On-Libya[/url]
This one?[/QUOTE]
Yup, that's the one.
Also holy shit at the "Gaffi is arming his loyal brainwashed subjects with AK's and grenades"
He is trying to pull a 1945 japanese home islands, and that will end in a major bloodbath.
[QUOTE=MajorMattem;28695210]Why dont the libyan rebels just send in a fake journalist for an interview with Gaddafi posing as someone from a bigger corporation, and then kill him when he is most vunerable?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security[/url]
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