Bioshock writer: "I'm fed up with the industry" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828022]What about games like Heavy Rain where you play as multiple characters?[/QUOTE] Basically just an interactive movie. Some people enjoy that, but many people do not. I personally don't enjoy videogames like that, which is why I heavily dislike that the only types of games that get recognized as having good stories are the ones that tries to emulate the feeling of a movie more than the feeling of a videogame.

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828041]Then you end up with games like Dear Esther that just reek of art house influence, and are a simply a vehicle for the story which I think are dreadful to play through.[/QUOTE] Dear Esther's a bit of an anomaly. It was part of Dan Pinchbeck's (the creator) thesis on using video games as a medium to tell stories, specifically first person shooters. If thechineseroom wasn't re-branding their site for some stupid reason I could link it for all to read; interesting shit.

I really don't care for amazing stories in videogames all too much, sure we can have a walking dead here and there but first and foremost a game should be about gameplay. If I wanted a seriously good story I would read a book or watch a movie, when I play a game I want a good interactive gameplay session for entertainment. Videogame stories will always be tethered by the limitations of the games they are in and if that makes you "fed up" then go just write a book then you faggot. What's cool and fun about writing good stories in videogames is that you WORK with the limitations of the game, you WORK with the artists, programmers, and level designers. You use these disadvantages and you can make something wholey unique. If you are just trying to plump a movie or a book story right into a game of course there will be frustrations.

[QUOTE=Dark Crypto;40828050]dude how the fuck is what are you doing even a ban reason I mean, I can get "you guys are dumb fucks" but "what are you doing", you don't even know what you're banning them for you're a shit mod, get off the pc gran 420 BLAZE IT FFAAAGGGOOTTSS[/QUOTE] Which ones Alt is it?

The ban reason probably directed to the user, not the general public. That guy most likely knew full well what he was doing (posting a chain of replies through different threads).

[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828077]I really don't care for amazing stories in videogames all too much, sure we can have a walking dead here and there but first and foremost a game should be about gameplay. If I wanted a seriously good story I would read a book or watch a movie, when I play a game I want a good interactive gameplay session for entertainment. Videogame stories will always be tethered by the limitations of the games they are in and if that makes you "fed up" then go just write a book then you faggot.[/QUOTE] What about games like Heavy Rain though? That story beats quite a few books, and still has gameplay.

[QUOTE=Simski;40827999]Because in games, the story is always centered around the player. Videogames don't tell good stories by having tons of characters and dialogue, videogames tell stories by having the player be the main character of a fantastic adventure. Many of the bigger writers seem to think that the only good written videogames are those that are basically interactive movies, but I think the games with the best stories are the ones that gives you enough freedom to feel like you're the one making all the decisions and presents enough challenge to feel that you've earned your place as the protagonist of the story.[/QUOTE] Definitely. This is why people really like stories in games such as Fallout and Deus Ex - considering their genres, they give the player much more freedom to explore and take in the elements of the story dotted around the enviroment while also giving the player actual weight to the choices they make. Games like the The Walking Dead are significantly more linear but manage to give the same effect, but games like that are more focused on character writing. If you make good characters and expand from there, it can really help fill in the gaps of the story's universe.

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828094]What about games like The Walking Dead though? That story beats quite a few books, and still has gameplay.[/QUOTE] Umm, if you misquoted me. The first thing I said was it's fine to have a walking dead here and there. I am ok with that, but I would quit videogames if every game was like that. What I get from her is that she is complaining because of the limitations of videogames today, but you can create something awesome if you work with those limitations to your advantage. Also actually work and collaborate with the game designers who are responsible for putting some of your ideas in the game, don't just try to put a movie or book script into a videogame and then kind of have game designers work for and around your plot.

I think video games as an art need to embody the very best strength the medium can deliver, utilizing all of the aspects of UI, gameplay, environmental/character design, writing and interactivity to deliver an overall theme and a truly unique storytelling experience no other medium can deliver. Sadly 99% of games only fall into one or two of these aspects and fail to fully push the medium. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] And no just because it has an ~artsy~ look to it doesn't make it art. I'm looking at 99.99% of you artsy games.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828077] If I wanted a seriously good story I would read a book or watch a movie, when I play a game I want a good interactive gameplay session for entertainment. Videogame stories will always be tethered by the limitations of the games they are in and if that makes you "fed up" then go just write a book then you faggot.[/QUOTE] You know there are books and films created purely as a "...session for entertainment." Iron Man 3 recently came out, I'd hardly call that a "seriously good story". Certainly but that doesn't mean developers shouldn't try to work with writers on creating something both good and fun (MGS1). [QUOTE=plunger435;40828094]What about games like The Walking Dead though? That story beats quite a few books, and still has gameplay.[/QUOTE] I'd hardly call what we got "gameplay".

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828094]What about games like The Walking Dead though? That story beats quite a few books, and still has gameplay.[/QUOTE] Walking Dead barely has any gameplay, it's basically just there to qualify as a game. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] fuck youuu warriorrr

[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828077]I really don't care for amazing stories in videogames all too much, sure we can have a walking dead here and there but first and foremost a game should be about gameplay. If I wanted a seriously good story I would read a book or watch a movie, when I play a game I want a good interactive gameplay session for entertainment. Videogame stories will always be tethered by the limitations of the games they are in and if that makes you "fed up" then go just write a book then you faggot.[/QUOTE] I would very much like it if the standards of story and characters in games could at least hold a candle to those of written literature. I like reading books but I also enjoy visual feedback and interaction. Good writing is not something quantifiable and there's no concrete reason why gameplay must hold back the story or vice versa. As long as the writers and the designers are on the same page it most certainly seems possible to create a good interaction-driven narrative.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828123]Umm, if you misquoted me. The first thing I said was it's fine to have a walking dead here and there. I am ok with that, but I would quit videogames if every game was like that. What I get from her is that she is complaining because of the limitations of videogames today, but you can create something awesome if you work with those limitations to your advantage. Also actually work and collaborate with the game designers who are responsible for putting some of your ideas in the game, don't just try to put a movie or book script into a videogame it doesn't work like that.[/QUOTE] Yeah sorry, I meant to type Heavy Rain but goofed up. Any ways, the thing video game stories have over books, and movies though is that you can fully interact with an open world. Books focus on a single narrative generally, and the freedom to experience different stories (quests) at whenever, and wherever could give games the age if its used enough.

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828094]What about games like The Walking Dead though? That story beats quite a few books, and [U]still has gameplay[/U].[/QUOTE] Barely. [editline]29th May 2013[/editline] Oh god damn it

[QUOTE=Novangel;40828143]Walking Dead barely has any gameplay, it's basically just there to qualify as a game. [editline]30th May 2013[/editline] fuck youuu warriorrr[/QUOTE] Point, and Click games still have gameplay though, people have just started making this claim recently since point n' clicks are only just now making a return to mainstream gaming.

Christ this Thread went FUBAR fast. [QUOTE=Simski;40827999]Because in games, the story is always centered around the player. Videogames don't tell good stories by having tons of characters and dialogue, videogames tell stories by having the player be the main character of a fantastic adventure. Many of the bigger writers seem to think that the only good written videogames are those that are basically interactive movies, but I think the games with the best stories are the ones that gives you enough freedom to feel like you're the one making all the decisions and presents enough challenge to feel that you've earned your place as the protagonist of the story.[/QUOTE] She criticizes that story is frequently taken as an afterthought, as an excuse to shoot everyone. I didn't read anything about her demanding tons of characters and dialogue or anything similarly.

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828192]Point, and Click games still have gameplay though, people have just started making this claim recently since point n' clicks are only just now making a return to mainstream gaming.[/QUOTE] It's hardly a game in the traditional sense, it's much more like an interactive visual novel. It's just a little more interactive than others.

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828192]Point, and Click games still have gameplay though, people have just started making this claim recently since point n' clicks are only just now making a return to mainstream gaming.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but point and click games have puzzles and inventory items that you have to combine with things in the world.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;40828169]I would very much like it if the standards of story and characters in games could at least hold a candle to those of written literature. I like reading books but I also enjoy visual feedback and interaction. Good writing is not something quantifiable and there's no concrete reason why gameplay must hold back the story or vice versa. As long as the writers and the designers are on the same page it most certainly seems possible to create a good interaction-driven narrative.[/QUOTE] Exactly, I think the old CRPG games are amazing examples of stories in videogames. They use the advantages and also limitations of the game they are designing to create something a book or a movie can't do. Examples like Deus-Ex, Fallout 1 and 2, Baldurs Gate, etc. Also Half-Life 2 is a good example of using a game to stretch out and cover a plot into subtlety and guesswork to keep the player engrossed into whats going on. The game doesn't tell you everything even after you are done, and it's awesome. A lot of books are movies rely on pure story work and have to tell you a lot of things to keep you interested. Like the actual game is simple in design, but then you lay a very very well written story and plot underneath it and it becomes so much more engaging.

[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;40828197]Christ this Thread went FUBAR fast. She criticizes that story is frequently taken as an afterthought, as an excuse to shoot everyone. I didn't read anything about her demanding [b]tons of characters and dialogue or anything similarly.[/b][/QUOTE] I don't see anybody focusing on those points here either.

[QUOTE=Simski;40828210]Yeah, but point and click games have puzzles and inventory items that you have to combine with things in the world.[/QUOTE] You can just click random things to progress in Walking Dead, you'll solve all the 'puzzles' eventually.

If the thing features interaction-driven challenges that tests something in the player, whether it's reflexes, logical thinking, hand-mouse coordination or memory, then we're most likely dealing with a game.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828211]Exactly, I think the old CRPG games are amazing examples of stories in videogames. They use the advantages and also limitations of the game they are designing to create something a book or a movie can't do. Examples like Deus-Ex, Fallout 1 and 2, Baldurs Gate, etc. Also Half-Life 2 is a good example of using a game to stretch out and cover a plot into subtlety and guesswork to keep the player engrossed into whats going on. The game doesn't tell you everything, and it's awesome. A lot of books are movies rely on pure story work and have to tell you a lot of things to keep you interested.[/QUOTE] Half-Life 2 also fully immerses the player, no voice for the character, no third person, and no cutscenes all help establish that the player is the protagonist which I think helps the story be more personal, and the gameplay always had relevance to the story.

[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;40828197]Christ this Thread went FUBAR fast. She criticizes that story is frequently taken as an afterthought, as an excuse to shoot everyone. I didn't read anything about her demanding tons of characters and dialogue or anything similarly.[/QUOTE] But that IS what a videogame IS. Of course not every game is shooty man 3 (although a lot of it is and I wish it wasn't like that). But the story HAS to work with the game, the story HAS to be an excuse for gameplay. You can't just have gameplay not making sense in the context of the story that is happening along with it these days.

I really wish games had better stories, it's whats been putting me off games lately. Bioshock Infinite has an alright story but was certainly far from perfect and the gameplay itself was even further from it. It seems developers really struggle with balancing good gameplay and a good story.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828262]But that IS what a videogame IS. Of course not every game is shooty man 3 (although a lot of it is and I wish it wasn't like that). But the story HAS to work with the game, the story HAS to be an excuse for gameplay. You can't just have gameplay not making sense in the context of the story that is happening along with it these days.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and there's a point where the gameplay negatively affects the story as well that the industry needs to get by like how you know when some cutscenes start that an NPC will probably die if its a shooter just because its easy to work out that if they're removing player control they're not wanting you to stop something. [editline]29th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Protocol7;40828204]It's hardly a game in the traditional sense, it's much more like an interactive visual novel. It's just a little more interactive than others.[/QUOTE] Point, and Click game [I]were[/I] the traditional PC game though.

[QUOTE=plunger435;40828307]Yeah, and there's a point where the gameplay negatively affects the story as well that the industry needs to get by like how you know when some cutscenes start that an NPC will probably die if its a shooter just because its easy to work out that if they're removing player control they're not wanting you to stop something.[/QUOTE] Well this is an example of the problems of videogame story writers not collaborating with the game designers in order to make something more polished out. Also it's a problem with games being too linear and simply pathed out. Things just aren't open ended enough anymore for writers to really get some meat in there. However I think the things she is criticizing is different from this topic. She does have some valid points but she needs to realize she is still writing for a videogame and that will always have limitations, you just have to work with them or just go and write for something else.

The problem with that even the 'better' wrote games barely make it out of pulp fiction territory.

[QUOTE=Jackald;40827860]It's still linear as fuck and has a really broken story with plot holes every 5 minutes.[/QUOTE] Yeah, blame the writer for the publisher rushing the game and developers being forced to cut the story along with tons of other content. Yup, sounds logical.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;40828306]I really wish games had better stories, it's whats been putting me off games lately. Bioshock Infinite has an alright story but was certainly far from perfect and the gameplay itself was even further from it. It seems developers really struggle with balancing good gameplay and a good story.[/QUOTE] Its mostly why I stick to online play these days.