[QUOTE=BenJammin';40828360]Well this is an example of the problems of videogame story writers not collaborating with the game designers in order to make something more polished out. Also it's a problem with games being too linear and simply pathed out. Things just aren't open ended enough anymore for writers to really get some meat in there. However I think the things she is criticizing is different from this topic. She does have some valid points but she needs to realize she is still writing for a videogame and that will always have limitations, you just have to work with them or just go and write for something else.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and she does make a good point that the concept of the game is created first (Shooting things, stabbing things, etc.), and then the rest is created around it instead of the other way around.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40828376]The problem with that even the 'better' wrote games barely make it out of pulp fiction territory.[/QUOTE]
It can be done, but don't expect a game with a lot of gameplay in order to go beyond where we usually are now.
In fact we should probably fix these bad traits in game design and gameplay before we ever start to tackle some REAL glorious writing. The game should come first in my opinion, I want to play a game not see an interactive movie or book. (most of the time). We shouldn't slim down a game to accompany writers who are used to writing books and movies and stuff.
You can really tell that the entire dev team took a trip to Africa by playing FC2. It is a really good depiction of an African civil war and has some of the best atmosphere I've seen in a game. The problem is all of the enemies are exactly the same but all of the weapons you can choose from that each incorporate their own strategy make it fun imo.
[QUOTE=Fenderson;40828445]You can really tell that the entire dev team took a trip to Africa by playing FC2. It is a really good depiction of an African civil war and has some of the best atmosphere I've seen in a game. The problem is all of the enemies are exactly the same but all of the weapons you can choose from that each incorporate their own strategy make it fun imo.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but gameplay wise it was a bore. It was just "drive to location while the guys you're supposed to be working for shoot at you because the guy hiring you can't be bothered to tell them not to". I can't even remember what most of the story was due to how unmemorable the game was.
[QUOTE=plunger435;40828022]What about games like Heavy Rain where you play as multiple characters?[/QUOTE]
Shame the were unable to make the story make even a lick of sense.
[QUOTE=plunger435;40828307]Point, and Click game [I]were[/I] the traditional PC game though.[/QUOTE]
The point and click portion of the game is maybe 10%. The rest is dialogue and story progression. It's a visual novel.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;40827705]far cry 2 and tomb raider have terrible stories i dont know what the escapist is on[/QUOTE]
Far Cry 2's story is terrible? I'm probably in a minority but I liked Far Cry 2's story because it was simple without being simplistic. The game is meant to look and feel like Heart of Darkness, and I think it did that well. When I get the urge to replay the game it's the awful enemy respawning, hell-bent vehicle patrols, and repetitive missions that dissuade me, not the story.
It doesn't get hung up on a shoehorned love plot or talking about the player's past as some hardcore commando, it's about a nihilistic war between two factions that ultimately differ little and in the end destroy their own country and you're along for the ride. I lived in east Africa for several years and Far Cry 2 perfectly captured the feeling, the atmosphere, of those countries and their conflicts.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;40828614]The point and click portion of the game is maybe 10%. The rest is dialogue and story progression. It's a visual novel.[/QUOTE]
Visual novels are their own category though, those are games presented purely through pictures, and text with no interaction besides dialogue choices. Whereas games like The Walking Dead, and Heavy Rain have quite a bit of interaction even if the puzzles are simple.
Yeah but have you even played Myst, Riven, or The Dig? Those are real point and clicks with a level of depth that TWD doesn't provide.
Point and clicks usually contain puzzles that require more than a few clicks, an inventory system, remembering details, etc. TWD barely provides any of this.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;40827770]I haven't heard any praise for Far Cry 2 on that front, but I've heard Tomb Raider has some pretty good character writing. I've only made it an hour in though so I can't judge for myself.[/QUOTE]
it didn't. at all. I liked the game, but the characters are some of the worst I've seen. I'm talking bulletstorm level bad. tough black girl, has a daughter. whiney blonde guy gets kidnapped a lot. mohawk bro loves beer and nature. lara is a survivor. that is the extent of that game's ''character writing''.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;40828706]Yeah but have you even played Myst, Riven, or The Dig? Those are real point and clicks with a level of depth that TWD doesn't provide.[/QUOTE]
But The Walking Dead still maintains the same basic elements of point n' click games, a simplistic inventory, using the mouse to move the player by clicking, and different contextual interactions. Just because it's not as complex as Myst doesn't make a visual novel.
FC2 might have had good writing. If you could actually find it. The gameplay was so much of a drag you didn't care about anything in the game at that point.
[QUOTE=Inzalonus;40827869]This is no joke, the games industry is a very serious business
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("What are you doing?" - Gran PC))[/highlight]
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Extended - Breaking rules on alt" - Craptasket))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Why does each of this guy's and stormcharger's quotes lead to a different thread?
I was reading the comments for this article and I think ths one makes a good point:
[quote]Can games tell better stories? Maybe. It COULD be possible.
But if you look at it from a writing standpoint, you'll get a writing answer, which is no. Books are better for simply writing.
If you encompass all that goes into a game: The Writing, The Pacing, The Mechanics, The Music, The Sound, The Acting, The Stylistic Look, The Visceral Feel, THAT's when you get how to make a great video game story.
You can't say, "As a writer, I can't do enough!" because if you segment the game into facets like Story is only in Writing, you get games where the story IS an after thought. But put the narrative IN with the rest of the decisions, and you'll be able to tell stories that other media can't possibly tell.
Can games have great stories? Yes. But you can't just "write" them. You have to craft the story. THEN we'll see games match up to Books and Movies.
You see this in any other media, where if you try to take the principles of one thing and put it in the other, you get a mess. If you just read Dune line for line and try to make it a movie, you get a badly paced and boring movie.
If you turn a song into a poem, you might find a lack luster poem. Media conversion doesn't work. It's interpretation based on the strengths of a specific media that works.[/quote]
Not may games have a decent length story.
I'm basing this mainly on games like CoD, as that sells squillions and has a half-arsed single player campaign that's drab and very short, with more effort and focus on multiplayer. Due to the financial success, other games have copied this format.
I thought Tomb Raider was pretty awesome, maybe not the best story line looking back, but playing it was immersive and it got hard to drop the controller throughout basically the whole game. Far Cry 2 on the other hand, I refuse to believe it even had a story line or plot. Yes I played it.
[QUOTE=kasmoke;40829457]I thought Tomb Raider was pretty awesome, maybe not the best story line looking back, but playing it was immersive and it got hard to drop the controller throughout basically the whole game. Far Cry 2 on the other hand, I refuse to believe it even had a story line or plot. Yes I played it.[/QUOTE]
It certainly had one but it was basically jungle Heart of Darkness. You can't really boast a game's story if the entire thing is structured around an existing novella.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;40829509]It certainly had one but it was basically jungle Heart of Darkness. You can't really boast a game's story if the entire thing is structured around an existing novella.[/QUOTE]
Apocalypse Now is regarded as one of the best movies ever made and it's basically Vietnam Heart of Darkness. I don't think a great story needs originality, it just needs to be told well. Far Cry 2 and Apocalypse Now are both heavily inspired by the same novel, but the ways in which they express the same core themes differentiates the two pretty substantially.
[QUOTE=catbarf;40829564]Apocalypse Now is regarded as one of the best movies ever made and it's basically Vietnam Heart of Darkness. I don't think a great story needs originality, it just needs to be told well. Far Cry 2 and Apocalypse Now are both heavily inspired by the same novel, but the ways in which they express the same core themes differentiates the two pretty substantially.[/QUOTE]
I spent the better part of the last hour trying to remember what FC2's story was based on. It's not memorable. I had to google it to make sure.
Something about an arms dealer or something.
Far Cry 2 was a fun safari game, but it's story and characters might as well not have existed.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;40829509]It certainly had one but it was basically jungle [U]Heart of Darkness[/U]. You can't really boast a game's story if the entire thing is structured around an existing novella.[/QUOTE]
Oh man... how I miss that game.
[QUOTE=Simski;40829653]Oh man... how I miss that game.[/QUOTE]
Uh I'm talking about the novella by Joseph Conrad
[QUOTE=Novangel;40828143]Walking Dead barely has any gameplay, it's basically just there to qualify as a game.
[editline]30th May 2013[/editline]
fuck youuu warriorrr[/QUOTE]
I don't get why people say TWD is not a game.
You install it on your computer, you buy it on a digital game distribution service, you use your keyboard and mouse to control it, your input is required for the story to progress, there is a fail state, it was created by a games development studio, Telltales [I]GAMES.[/I]
[QUOTE=Protocol7;40829729]Uh I'm talking about the novella by Joseph Conrad[/QUOTE]
I realized, but it still reminded me of the awesome game by the same name :v:
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;40829743]I don't get why people say TWD is not a game.
You install it on your computer, you buy it on a digital game distribution service, you use your keyboard and mouse to control it, your input is required for the story to progress, there is a fail state, it was created by a games development studio, Telltales [I]GAMES.[/I][/QUOTE]
If people don't think TWD is a game then they probably don't think Myst or Riven is a game either, which means that they are simultaneously wrong and also terrible people.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;40829743]I don't get why people say TWD is not a game.[/QUOTE]
Yeah TECHNICALLY it's a game, but it damn well doesn't play like anything more than an interactive movie. The actual gameplay is extremely limited, as are the decisions and your freedom to do what you want. It's a decent story, but I don't think of it as much of an actual game. I didn't really feel like I played TWD, it felt more like listening to a story and sometimes being asked who you'd want to save and such.
[editline]29th May 2013[/editline]
No... you know what EXACTLY it feels like? It feels like one of those "make your own adventure" books, TWD is like a visual "make your own adventure book".
[QUOTE=Simski;40829771]No... you know what EXACTLY it feels like? It feels like one of those "make your own adventure" books, TWD is like a visual "make your own adventure book".[/QUOTE]
Yup. It's still a game in name but it's more narrative than it is interactive.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;40827705]far cry 2 and tomb raider have terrible stories i dont know what the escapist is on[/QUOTE]
I thought Far Cry 2 had an interesting story; it just was poorly executed. I personally blame the fact that the developers were trying hard to keep the game open ended and free roam which caused the story to be a bit week and lacking linearity. This is why I think FC3 was so good; they were able to balance the formula well enough that you could have a great linear story with open world gameplay.
[QUOTE=Simski;40829771]Yeah TECHNICALLY it's a game, but it damn well doesn't play like anything more than an interactive movie. The actual gameplay is extremely limited, as are the decisions and your freedom to do what you want. It's a decent story, but I don't think of it as much of an actual game. I didn't really feel like I played TWD, it felt more like listening to a story and sometimes being asked who you'd want to save and such.
[editline]29th May 2013[/editline]
No... you know what EXACTLY it feels like? It feels like one of those "make your own adventure" books, TWD is like a visual "make your own adventure book".[/QUOTE]
is there some universal threshold that exists that dictates whether a game is a "real" game or not?
just because you can't walk around and shoot guns like you can in mass effect or call of duty doesn't mean that the game isn't a game. the "make your own adventure" shit you're saying doesn't make sense because the story is on par with normal semi-linear stories, without the gameplay.
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