[QUOTE=Soleeedus;40836203]yeah sure let's make every single game open world but with even worse stories
what the fuck is wrong with linearity?[/QUOTE]
Final Fantasy XIII: The hallway game
[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;40835969]Is it still cool to have the opinion that [i]Deus Ex: Human Revolution[/i] had a good story?
Because I still have that opinion. I think the game did a good job of marrying the FPS / stealth mechanics of gameplay with an immersively linear story. It didn't feel like, to me, a game that "had story tacked on as an afterthought." More than anything, it almost felt like the first-person shooter elements were "tacked on as an afterthought." Take the boss-fights for example; it's painfully obvious that they were shoehorned in for some reason or another.
The game seems to play as a stealth game far more naturally, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was a good story but I think that the ending could have been handled better instead of [sp]literally being a room with cut-scene buttons.[/sp]
[QUOTE=catbarf;40835166]Did anyone else like the story to Alan Wake?
The game had its issues and the plot got nonsensical by the end but the way the story was presented seemed like a really good Stephen King wannabe.[/QUOTE]Alan Wake's was really solid, but the gameplay in the first was really really repetitive. The fact there was maybe only three enemies didn't do it many favors either. AN improved on it a lot and had a pretty good plot for what it was. Hopefully they'll take the lessons they learned from it and use the same great story telling from the first.
Hell, for a great example, look at Max Payne. Good gameplay, pioneered Bullet-Time, and the story was wonderful. Sam Lake is a hell of a writer.
[QUOTE=goon165;40836231]Final Fantasy XIII: The hallway game[/QUOTE]
That was just bad design, not a problem with linearity in and of itself. Hell, Final Fantasy X was a completely linear affair until you got free access to the Airship near the end of the game and it was much better than XIII.
I actually liked FF XIII. The "tutorial doesn't end for 9-20 hours!" I just couldn't get since the damn thing was more than half-over by the twenty hour mark, and the story and gameplay wasn't that bad. I didn't have a problem with the extreme linearity but that's just me and yeah, I see where everyone is coming from.
Vanille can go fuck herself with the rustiest appendage anyone can find though. Every time she spoke I wanted to punch her in her indecisive-accented face.
far cry 2 had a great story... the gameplay is what was bad. wtf is wrong with you people
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;40836342]far cry 2 had a great story... the gameplay is what was bad. wtf is wrong with you people[/QUOTE]
opinions
Just remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion if you're defending yours, but they're obviously wrong and they're ~autistic~/insertgenericinsulttointelligenceand/ormentalstablitiyhere if their opinion conflicts with yours.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;40836295]That was just bad design, not a problem with linearity in and of itself. Hell, Final Fantasy X was a completely linear affair until you got free access to the Airship near the end of the game and it was much better than XIII.[/QUOTE]
I know but that's what happens when you abuse linearity
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;40836342]far cry 2 had a great story... the gameplay is what was bad. wtf is wrong with you people[/QUOTE]
The story was pretty forgettable but everything to do with the Jackal, mainly his tapes, were hella interesting.
[QUOTE=goon165;40836231]Final Fantasy XIII: The hallway game[/QUOTE]
Yes but it also suffered from a boring story with cardboard cutout characters. If you gave XIII the plot of Nier, I promise you people wouldn't bitch about it as much.
the walking dead is a video game because it is borne by a video game tradition. virtually any work in a medium is based, at least somewhat, on works that came before it and the walking dead's predecessors were also all adventure games, with it using mechanics derived from those games as well as mechanics from other games (the first person shooting segments, for example). it doesn't cease to be a video game just because it simplifies those mechanics to an extreme.
[QUOTE=Soleeedus;40836203]what the fuck is wrong with linearity?[/QUOTE]
Depends entirely on your game.
But considering player agency is a big aspect of videogames a little bit of non-linearity goes a long way.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;40836613]the walking dead is a video game because it is borne by a video game tradition. virtually any work in a medium is based, at least somewhat, on works that came before it and the walking dead's predecessors were also all adventure games, with it using mechanics derived from those games as well as mechanics from other games (the first person shooting segments, for example). it doesn't cease to be a video game just because it simplifies those mechanics to an extreme.[/QUOTE]
I'm not denying that it actually is a videogame, I'm saying it's not a good example of a game with good writing because there's barely any focus on it being played as a game rather than as a story. Games where the gameplay feels part of the story are the ones I think of as games with good writing, not the games where gameplay is sacrificed to tell the story.
Holy crap so much hate for FarCry 2 in this thread.
Facepunch, why must you hate my precious?
In my experience, complex and detailed stories only end up railroading a player through scripted events.
Writers need to stop treating videogames as books or movies, because they're not. They'reinteractive. It's the player that creates the story, not the writer. The writer should only be there to flesh out the world and give the game a solid background.
[QUOTE=V12US;40839926]In my experience, complex and detailed stories only end up railroading a player through scripted events.
Writers need to stop treating videogames as books or movies, because they're not. They'reinteractive. It's the player that creates the story, not the writer. The writer should only be there to flesh out the world and give the game a solid background.[/QUOTE]
No, the solution to bad writing isn't to remove writing, you need to do a different kind of writing. Look at older RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment, they wrote their stories with the main character at the focus, modern games write stories where the main character is the least important character in the story.
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A good video on writing on games by MrBtounge compares Fallout 3 to Fallout New Vegas. I think it's probably relevant.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvwlt4FqmS0[/media]
[QUOTE=Ericson666;40830223]Far Cry 2's story was a good analogy for the entire game: it had a lot of cool ideas and potential, but they messed up the execution. A story about war torn Africa could have been great, and the Jakal was a really good character (his tapes were really worth finding), but all in all they failed to really show that anything you did changed the world in any way.
And Far Cry 3 had a shit story, don't kid yourself[/QUOTE]
I thought Far Cry 3's story was well enough; a little over the top but that's what made it fun and added to that action packed cliché riddled adventure.
[QUOTE=V12US;40839926]In my experience, complex and detailed stories only end up railroading a player through scripted events.
Writers need to stop treating videogames as books or movies, because they're not. They'reinteractive. It's the player that creates the story, not the writer. The writer should only be there to flesh out the world and give the game a solid background.[/QUOTE]
Its depends upon the game/story. For example, MGS and the rest of the series used scripted events to partially tell the narrative, however it was still a strong story (Maybe confusing at points)
Bringing Bioshock back into the picture, having in game choices or the illusion of that thereof, gave the game a different set of linearity. Most importantly it wasn't done through interactive movies, but the narrative was given through some of the in game characters through recordings, radio, etc.
[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;40840171]Its depends upon the game/story. For example, MGS and the rest of the series used scripted events to partially tell the narrative, however it was still a strong story (Maybe confusing at points)
Bringing Bioshock back into the picture, having in game choices or the illusion of that thereof, gave the game a different set of linearity. Most importantly it wasn't done through interactive movies, but the narrative was given through some of the in game characters through recordings, radio, etc.[/QUOTE]
This. I have to say that my favorite part of Bioshock's storytelling wasn't always in the cutscenes, but all throughout the environment. You could just simply pick a room, look around it and be able to come up with your own conclusions of what happened there. I loved its attention to detail and how much could be gleaned through the recordings and such.
[sp]Not that my mind didn't melt at the Would You Kindly revelation or the Andrew Ryan scene or anything. Nope, didn't happen at all.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Simski;40827999]Because in games, the story is always centered around the player. Videogames don't tell good stories by having tons of characters and dialogue, videogames tell stories by having the player be the main character of a fantastic adventure. Many of the bigger writers seem to think that the only good written videogames are those that are basically interactive movies, but I think the games with the best stories are the ones that gives you enough freedom to feel like you're the one making all the decisions and presents enough challenge to feel that you've earned your place as the protagonist of the story.[/QUOTE]
Bioshock was basically about tricking you into that feeling before revealing that you (both as a gamer and a character) had no free will after all
[QUOTE=Simski;40827999]Because in games, the story is always centered around the player. Videogames don't tell good stories by having tons of characters and dialogue, videogames tell stories by having the player be the main character of a fantastic adventure. Many of the bigger writers seem to think that the only good written videogames are those that are basically interactive movies, but I think the games with the best stories are the ones that gives you enough freedom to feel like you're the one making all the decisions and presents enough challenge to feel that you've earned your place as the protagonist of the story.[/QUOTE]
unfortunately this is where the gameplay tends to fall apart. there are examples of it done excellently; the (earlier) elder scrolls games come to mind. that said it is very difficult to create a true illusion of choice in a video game. at the end of the day, its just a series of scripted events, and most games recently have had a very hard time of hiding that. you really only have so many choices.
[QUOTE=Jackald;40827860]It's still linear as fuck and has a really broken story with plot holes every 5 minutes.[/QUOTE]
Half-Life 2 is linear.
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Half-Life 1 is linear.
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Bioshock is linear.
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Hotline Miami is linear.
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Max Payne is linear.
[editline]ass[/editline]
Metro 2033 is linear.
[editline]ass[/editline]
The Oddworld series is linear.
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And they're not bad games.
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