MAP: How Ukraine and Russia are moving toward war - Polidicks

[QUOTE=MoofinztheRed;44716225]Eerily like the prelude to WW2 When America does it, its because they're getting the people reponsible for 9/11. I mean looking for WMD's. I mean getting Hadam. I mean imancipating a surpressed people. I mean to get the oil. But when Russia does it. Its evil and Russia should pay dearly. The Bush Admin. set a precedent that Putin merely adopted. However depending upon which end of the propoganda youre receivong depends upon how wrong or right your actions are seen. [editline]4th May 2014[/editline] Eerily like the prelude to WW2 When America does it, its because they're getting the people reponsible for 9/11. I mean looking for WMD's. I mean getting Hadam. I mean imancipating a surpressed people. I mean to get the oil. But when Russia does it. Its evil and Russia should pay dearly. The Bush Admin. set a precedent that Putin merely adopted. However depending upon which end of the propoganda youre receivong depends upon how wrong or right your actions are seen.[/QUOTE] oh get out.

Hey guys, remember when America totally targeted all of Iraq, rather than Saddam's regime and supporters? And then we totally annexed that shit and started looking toward absorbing the rest of the middle east because we felt like it? Oh yeah, I forgot the part where we blatantly lied about any direct involvement and deployed troops with no flag patches, remember how good we got em with that? Yeah, I don't either.

well the whole WMD was a blatant lie tbh

man, i hope this really doesnt turn into war.

[QUOTE=CommieTurtle;44716611]Hey guys, remember when America totally targeted all of Iraq, rather than Saddam's regime and supporters? And then we totally annexed that shit and started looking toward absorbing the rest of the middle east because we felt like it? Oh yeah, I forgot the part where we blatantly lied about any direct involvement and deployed troops with no flag patches, remember how good we got em with that? Yeah, I don't either.[/QUOTE] America annexed Iraq? First I've heard of it.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44710190]Ukraine has every right to protect its borders and Russia has no right to march right in thinking he owns the place[/QUOTE] You're full of shit. The Maidan coup government (there is no 'Ukraine') has no right to force its Ukrainian chauvinist and pro-EU views on the rest of the country, which is rising up in arms after having its legitimate government deposed. Russia is well within its 'right' to answer the call of her sympathizers at this point, as it has always done. Now that the fascists and the liberal oligarchs have control of the Ukrainian state and are using it against irregular separatists while far-right militias terrorize on the side, it is only moral and just. The West tried to march in like it owned the place, and snatch Ukraine from under Russia's nose. It didn't work.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44718410]You're full of shit. The Maidan coup government (there is no 'Ukraine') has no right to force its Ukrainian chauvinist and pro-EU views on the rest of the country, which is rising up in arms after having its legitimate government deposed. Russia is well within its 'right' to answer the call of her sympathizers at this point, as it has always done. Now that the fascists and the liberal oligarchs have control of the Ukrainian state and are using it against irregular separatists while far-right militias terrorize on the side, it is only moral and just. The West tried to march in like it owned the place, and snatch Ukraine from under Russia's nose. It didn't work.[/QUOTE] I love how your last line betrays how you agree that Ukraine should be under Russia's influence.

[QUOTE=Explosions;44718422]I love how your last line betrays how you agree that Ukraine should be under Russia's influence.[/QUOTE] I love how you pretend the east and south of the country don't have economic and ethnic ties to Russia. It has nothing to do with what should be, just the reality of conflicting interests. Keep trying to speculate on my motivation, maybe it'll substitute for an argument someday. Not that anti-Maidan even necessarily has to do with Russia's relationship to Ukraine. Yanukovich and his party never represented 'Russian influence' during these events.

[QUOTE=GunFox;44710888]You jest but that could work. Russia has played the obvious lie game from the start. Let's play too! "You blew up my tanks with a drone!" "Did you see a drone?" "No, but a city block doesn't just magically disappear in a fireball" "Must have been a gas main" Why bother with good lies when shitty ones are just as effective! Thanks Putin![/QUOTE] now that's some tyrannical russian-style type bullshit right there

[QUOTE=Conscript;44718410]You're full of shit. The Maidan coup government (there is no 'Ukraine') has no right to force its Ukrainian chauvinist and pro-EU views on the rest of the country, which is rising up in arms after having its legitimate government deposed. Russia is well within its 'right' to answer the call of her sympathizers at this point, as it has always done. Now that the fascists and the liberal oligarchs have control of the Ukrainian state and are using it against irregular separatists while far-right militias terrorize on the side, it is only moral and just. The West tried to march in like it owned the place, and snatch Ukraine from under Russia's nose. It didn't work.[/QUOTE] Do you work for RT? I think they'd like you there.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44718410]You're full of shit. The Maidan coup government (there is no 'Ukraine') has no right to force its Ukrainian chauvinist and pro-EU views on the rest of the country, which is rising up in arms after having its legitimate government deposed. Russia is well within its 'right' to answer the call of her sympathizers at this point, as it has always done. Now that the fascists and the liberal oligarchs have control of the Ukrainian state and are using it against irregular separatists while far-right militias terrorize on the side, it is only moral and just. The West tried to march in like it owned the place, and snatch Ukraine from under Russia's nose. It didn't work.[/QUOTE] Hey is your family Russian by any chance?

[QUOTE=Conscript;44718430]I love how you pretend the east and south of the country don't have economic and ethnic ties to Russia. [/QUOTE] So? South Texas has economic and ethnic ties to Mexico but that doesn't make a Mexican invasion not an act of war.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44718410]The Maidan coup government (there is no 'Ukraine') has no right to force its Ukrainian chauvinist and pro-EU views on the rest of the country, which is rising up in arms after having its legitimate government deposed. Russia is well within its 'right' to answer the call of her sympathizers at this point, as it has always done. Now that the fascists and the liberal oligarchs have control of the Ukrainian state and are using it against irregular separatists while far-right militias terrorize on the side, it is only moral and just. The West tried to march in like it owned the place, and snatch Ukraine from under Russia's nose. It didn't work.[/QUOTE] Ukraine not existing as sovereign entity (at least) since the coup is as close to Kremlin line of thought as you can get. Same goes for massively exaggerating nationalist interim government's impact on the country AND seeing Ukraine's cooperation with EU as an aggressive intrusion to Russia's sphere of influence. Lastly, seeing Russia's potential armed intervention to sovereign country as fully justified when some sympathizers call them to tilt politics in their favor is quite rich. Turning that around, EU and NATO would be fully justified to make an armed intervention for Euromaidan's favor. Or is there a difference that is not present in your previous argument? As for speculating over your motivations I recommend you iron out most blatant bias and hidden assumptions before posting, so it at least becomes comprehensible for people who are not reflexively pro-russian.

[QUOTE=laserpanda;44719035]So? South Texas has economic and ethnic ties to Mexico but that doesn't make a Mexican invasion not an act of war.[/QUOTE] South Texas was never part of a union with Mexico, the US has no ethnic ties to Mexico, South Texas doesn't have the divide Ukraine has, and no geopolitical adversary of Mexico has installed a nationalist coup regime that endangers Mexicans. The US would never allow it to get to that point, unlike Russia which as been conciliatory since 91. Instead, the US just likes to invade/intervene in places like Cuba and Grenada when they don't like change. [quote]Ukraine not existing as sovereign entity (at least) since the coup is as close to Kremlin line of thought as you can get[/quote] Funny because there's quite a few nations outside the Kremlin that don't recognize the new government. [quote]Same goes for massively exaggerating nationalist interim government's impact on the country AND seeing Ukraine's cooperation with EU as an aggressive intrusion to Russia's sphere of influence.[/quote] Oh yes, those nazis just aren't important. :rolleyes: Forcing Ukraine to choose between it and the Customs Union, then supporting a coup when Yanukovich chose wrong after the EU's shit deal, is the finest example of post-91 NATO/EU aggression. [quote]Lastly, seeing Russia's potential armed intervention to sovereign country as fully justified when some sympathizers call them to tilt politics in their favor is quite rich. Turning that around, EU and NATO would be fully justified to make an armed intervention for Euromaidan's favor. Or is there a difference that is not present in your previous argument?[/quote] There's an obvious difference to anyone following these events. Maidan doesn't have to call anyone to tilt their politics, [i]they have the state[/i], and they've already received aid from the West. What's with these fail false equivalencies?

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;44719939]Like North Korea, Zimbabwe, Syria, Venezuela. All pillars of democracy.[/QUOTE] So only good little Western liberal democracies can have a say? And you forgot India and China.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44719950]So only good little Western liberal democracies can have a say? And you forgot India and China.[/QUOTE] "have a say" It's pretty obvious all these countries depend on Russia, otherwise they wouldn't give a single fuck about Ukraine and Crimea.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;44719969]"have a say" It's pretty obvious all these countries depend on Russia, otherwise they wouldn't give a single fuck about Ukraine and Crimea.[/QUOTE] Could say the exact same thing about recognition of Kosovo. [QUOTE=Teddybeer;44719980]It would help to look more legit if all the countries condemning a "illegal government that wasn't voted by the people" had elections not consisting of a joke spectacle of pure corruption with pretty much a one party system since they nation was founded and opposing parties do not exist or are severely limited.[/QUOTE] Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, this is irrelevant and has no bearing on the legitimacy of the Maidan gov't, which is what is in question. This logic is just a free pass for the liberal west to enact regime change as it sees fit, because 'at home' it's legit. Or something.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44718410]The West tried to march in like it owned the place, and snatch Ukraine from under Russia's nose. It didn't work.[/QUOTE] so why should ukraine be russian

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720041]so why should ukraine be russian[/QUOTE] Because Soviet Union Conscript has done nothing but support Russia in every way he can for years on Facepunch. I'm pretty sure he denied the Holodomor a few years ago.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720041]so why should ukraine be russian[/QUOTE] What does it mean to be Russian in this question? To preserve 'Ukraine as not Russia' over 'Ukraine in opposition to the East'? To balance the EU and the Customs union, or choose the latter? To not hold Ukrainian nationalist views, rehabilitate nazis and their collaborators, and smash statues? Or Russian annexation?

[QUOTE=Conscript;44720069]To not hold Ukrainian nationalist views, rehabilitate nazis and their collaborators, and smash statues?[/QUOTE] As if Russia doesn't have Nazis. Remember that report on the Neo-Nazi groups that freely beat LGBT folks because they can? Of course you don't, because that makes Russia look bad, and that doesn't settle within your world view. Russia is one of the most authoritarian governments in the region, and Russia itself is fairly right-wing. They just keep saying "Nazi" because they need to drum up support and recycling old Nationalism is a very easy way to do so.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;44720221]As if Russia doesn't have Nazis. Remember that report on the Neo-Nazi groups that freely beat LGBT folks because they can? Of course you don't, because that makes Russia look bad, and that doesn't settle within your world view. Russia is one of the most authoritarian governments in the region, and Russia itself is fairly right-wing. They just keep saying "Nazi" because they need to drum up support and recycling old Nationalism is a very easy way to do so.[/QUOTE] Russia's nazi problem is mostly limited to thugs beating up immigrants and dressing up as cossacks. They aren't participating as the radical wing of a wider nationalist movement with foreign support and aren't trying to take power. Russia has no equivalent of Svoboda. They keep saying 'nazi' because the legacy of Barbarossa and Banderists has a lot to do with Western Ukraine. Even the European far-right, such as the [url=http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/ukraine-official-statement]BNP[/url], [url=http://xaameriki.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/golden-dawn-statement-on-developments-in-the-ukraine-and-persecution-of-orthodox-christians/]Golden Dawn[/url], and [url=http://www.frontnational.com/2014/03/urgence-humanitaire-en-ukraine-russophone-et-en-crimee-russe-le-front-national-appelle-au-dialogue-et-a-lapaisement/]Front Nationale[/url] have all issued condemnations for them basically serving as shock troops for pro-eu liberal oligarchs like Tymoshenko. More false equivalency. Russia will always have more anti-fascists and communist sympathizers than nazis. Can't say the same about West Ukraine, which was historically detached from East Slavs in general.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44720069]What does it mean to be Russian in this question? To preserve 'Ukraine as not Russia' over 'Ukraine in opposition to the East'? To balance the EU and the Customs union, or choose the latter? To not hold Ukrainian nationalist views, rehabilitate nazis and their collaborators, and smash statues? Or Russian annexation?[/QUOTE] stop with the sophistry should ukraine be a separate country with their own language, culture, ethnicity, and history?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720288]stop with the sophistry should ukraine be a separate country with their own language, culture, ethnicity, and history?[/QUOTE] Twisting what's going on here into a simple question about Ukraine being separate and independent is the epitome of sophistry. Yes, it should. Please tell me how support for Maidan and fascists follows, or any severing of ties with Russia in general.

[QUOTE=Conscript;44720295]Twisting what's going on here into a simple question about Ukraine being separate and independent is the epitome of sophistry. Yes, it should. Please tell me how support for Maidan and fascists follows, or any severing of ties with Russia in general.[/QUOTE] right, so we've established that do remember that ukraine was going to sign a trade treaty with the EU, but then russia blocked the import of ukrainian goods in august the "fascists" are nowhere near having control of the country, and euromaidan is accepted by at least half the population as for severing ties with russia, the russians have been blackmailing ukraine for the past 20 years, followed up by russia outright annexing crimea, then why should they keep them?

[video=youtube;KmU5G5OKODE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmU5G5OKODE[/video] meanwhile in Luhansk

[QUOTE=Conscript;44719901]The US would never allow it to get to that point, unlike Russia which as been conciliatory since 91. Instead, the US just likes to invade/intervene in places like Cuba and Grenada when they don't like change.[/quote] And you seem to consider Soviet Union's "send tanks to neighbor's capital when its people start to get opinions" the default and just condition. Nobody here has advocated USA's interventionism, but you regard Russia not invading other countries as particular benevolence. No need to remind again why Baltics and Poland are so desperately clinging to NATO. Maybe, just maybe NATO's eastward expansion isn't only due to USA's tyrannical machinations. [QUOTE=Conscript;44719901] Funny because there's quite a few nations outside the Kremlin that don't recognize the new government.[/quote] Not recognizing government is the same as not recognizing a sovereign state. As far as false equivalencies go, you're way ahead of me. [QUOTE=Conscript;44719901] Oh yes, those nazis just aren't important. :rolleyes: Forcing Ukraine to choose between it and the Customs Union, then supporting a coup when Yanukovich chose wrong after the EU's shit deal, is the finest example of post-91 NATO/EU aggression.[/quote] Despite said "nazis", government hasn't actually done anything close to what fearmongers say they would. Dangers of interim government are 90% narrative by Kreml to gather intimidate ukrainians and gather casus belli. It was Putin who used economic leverage to terminate any attempts for closer ties with EU. Also evident is the crass double-standard regarding democracy: when ex-soviet nation makes closer ties with Russia, it is People's Will. When ex-soviet nation makes closer ties with EU/NATO, it's western aggression. And when up to million people gather in demonstrations, it's extremist elements mobilized by west. As opposed to eastern paramilitaries that summarily detain and kill perceived opponents; this is spontaneous and peaceful expression by people's will. From a viewpoint of someone whose interests aren't aligned with those of Kreml, the whole western aggression rhetoric is laughable. [QUOTE=Conscript;44719901] There's an obvious difference to anyone following these events. Maidan doesn't have to call anyone to tilt their politics, [i]they have the state[/i], and they've already received aid from the West. What's with these fail false equivalencies?[/QUOTE] I asked whether Maidan would be justified in receiving military aid from West, as you said separatists receiving military aid from Russia is justified. And I mean brigade-sized units like Russia is keen on providing, not a handful of observers that EU has sent.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720347] do remember that ukraine was going to sign a trade treaty with the EU, but then russia blocked the import of ukrainian goods in august[/quote] Of course, however this started with the EU forcing the decision on Ukraine. After the EU claimed the ball was Yanukovich's court and everything was up to him to sign in november, forcing him to choose between the EU and the Customs Union, Yanukovich went back on his 'promise' after realizing how shit the EU deal was and the extent Russia was willing to subsidize Ukraine. Then the EU looked towards the opposition, the EU Parliament president after Yanukovich's rejection hinted that the deal was still open and that the president didn't represent the country. Officials from the West including Polish officials, Victoria Nuland & Kerry start arriving to provide vocal support (and likely money through NGOs). To put the nail in the coffin EU completely rejected Russia's offer of trilateral talks, insists on dealing with Ukraine directly while fomenting regime change there through unconstitutional means. Figures like the CIA director arriving in Kiev only served to compound Russian fears. This is hardly as one-sided as you portray. [quote]the "fascists" are nowhere near having control of the country, and euromaidan is accepted by at least half the population[/quote] The pro-EU liberals who don't identify so much as fascists yet are still patriots (like UDAR) are still nonetheless Ukrainian nationalists and prone to chauvinism. Which is why their Rada has approved of things like handing important government positions to Svoboda, the language law, banning the Ukrainian Communist Party, etc. [quote]4201 – Bill to ban Ukrainian Communist Party activity. 4217 – Bill to redress antecedents of the Soviet occupation of Ukraine. 4176 – Bill to repeal law penalizing Nazi propaganda. 4184 – Bill to place V. Avakov as minister of the interior and members of “Right Sector” party on ministry staff (Avakov also belongs to the party which many consider fascist). Σ 4215 – Bill to establish a “Pantheon of national heroes.” 4203 - Bill to curb state spending. 4215 – Bill to pay tribute to participants in the clashes during peaceful demonstrations. 4197 – Bill to place "Svoboda" party member Α.Mahnitskogo as Prosecutor General. 4204 – Bill delineating the duties of the President of the Uraine. 4191 – Bill to place "UDAR" party member V.A. Nalivaychenko as overseer of Ukrainian Security Agencies 4211 – Bill to fire incumbent officers and personnel of security forces and replace them with new personnel (the latter are believed to be members of extreme right wing groups). 4199- Bill to repeal the use of their native language by minorities, which refers to Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, and Greek.[/quote] [url]http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/politics/article/greek-community-terrified-over-developments-in-ukraine[/url] [quote]as for severing ties with russia, the russians have been blackmailing ukraine for the past 20 years[/quote] Russia has used pressure before (when threatened, otherwise it's the only reason Ukraine is economically afloat) true, however for the most part Russia has been taking a neutral position towards Ukraine since 91, like it has towards NATO's broken promise to Gorbachev in general. Between both 2004 and the events leading up February 21, 2014, Russia has been quiet. [quote]followed up by russia outright annexing crimea, then why should they keep them?[/QUOTE] You disagree with Crimea's accession?

[QUOTE]language law[/QUOTE] you mean the one that didnt pass???

It seems the Ukrainians now want to boycott Russia's products [video=youtube;IDWHWhj68I0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDWHWhj68I0[/video]