[QUOTE=Conscript;44720513]Of course, however this started with the EU forcing the decision on Ukraine. After the EU claimed the ball was Yanukovich's court and everything was up to him to sign in november, forcing him to choose between the EU and the Customs Union, Yanukovich went back on his 'promise' after realizing how shit the EU deal was and the extent Russia was willing to subsidize Ukraine.[/quote]
you still havent explained the trade blocking by russia
[quote]The pro-EU liberals who don't identify so much as fascists yet are still patriots (like UDAR) are still nonetheless Ukrainian nationalists and prone to chauvinism. Which is why their Rada has approved of things like handing important government positions to Svoboda, the language law, banning the Ukrainian Communist Party, etc.[/quote]
a lot of these bills didnt pass or otherwise are harmless
"4217 – Bill to redress antecedents of the Soviet occupation of Ukraine."
"4215 – Bill to pay tribute to participants in the clashes during peaceful demonstrations."
whats even wrong with these?
[quote]You disagree with Crimea's accession?[/QUOTE]
russia went straight in and annexed it lol
but it doesn't matter, that action only weakens russia in the long run
the bigger she grows, the faster she rots
[QUOTE=Conscript;44720264]Russia's nazi problem is mostly limited to thugs beating up immigrants and dressing up as cossacks. They aren't participating as the radical wing of a wider nationalist movement with foreign support and aren't trying to take power. Russia has no equivalent of Svoboda. [/QUOTE]
yeah this would be true if the government didn't also actively enable the guys who are torturing and killing gay people by turning a blind eye and continuing to pass homophobic legislation. like have you even seen some of the stuff Putin says about gays? you can't reasonably say that the russian government isn't enabling them to continue doing this
[QUOTE=Streecer;44720527]you mean the one that didnt pass???[/QUOTE]
The only reason there was an end to it was because of pressure from the West. Nonetheless, it says much about the current Rada. Indeed, Svoboda has many seats in it and both the Party of Regions and the Communist Party have been repressed on the ground by mobs and far-right thugs.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44720567]The only reason there was an end to it was because of pressure from the West. Nonetheless, it says much about the current Rada. Indeed, Svoboda has many seats in it and both the Party of Regions and the Communist Party have been repressed on the ground by mobs and far-right thugs.[/QUOTE]
care to back up these claims with sources or are you going to continue to wave that far-right boogeyman around?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720563]you still havent explained the trade blocking by russia[/quote]
It's just Russian pressure to counter EU pressure. Welcome to the world of rival imperialist powers. Can you imagine if Russia, to the chagrin of the US, took Mexico from NAFTA? The US would do this sort of thing, in fact, it's been practicing an economic war through sanctions since the start of Maidan. Hell, you could consider the US's refusal to let West Germany pay reparations to the USSR a precedent.
Aren't you a liberal anyway? Seems odd of you to criticize this voluntary action of a capitalist.
[quote]a lot of these bills didnt pass or otherwise are harmless[/quote]
Plenty of them passed, hell the Svoboda prosecutor-general is currently feeding Western media a story on Yanukovich funding pro-russians. And harmless? Don't make me laugh.
The idea that a Rada can be combed through of undesirable Party of Regions and Communist party MPs through intimidation, propose these bills (which alienate half the country) and vote on them while appointing Banderist individuals (who coincide with what Victoria Nuland outlined in her leak) isn't a problem says a lot about you.
[quote]whats even wrong with these?[/quote]
One is a western-aided move to arbitrarily cement the national narrative conveniently the aid of the Ukrainian nationalist cause, the other is a one-sided amnesty for Maidan protestors only, which is one of the separatists' demands to change.
[quote]russia went straight in and annexed it lol[/quote]
...Russia allowed local anti-Kiev authorities to be set up in peace and a referendum to happen.
[quote]the bigger she grows, the faster she rots[/quote]
Actually, as Kerry says, this has much potential to alter Western global leadership, and does much to illuminate the positions of important countries like China and India in regards to the west.
Russia isn't on the rise, but this has done much to shake up Western hegemony and revitalize many east slavs.
[QUOTE]...Russia allowed local anti-Kiev authorities to be set up in peace and a referendum to happen. [/QUOTE]
nothing says fair referendum like being held under gunpoint by russian soldiers
[QUOTE=Streecer;44720667]nothing says fair referendum like being held under gunpoint by russian soldiers[/QUOTE]
Just so you know, I don't waste my time on one-liner trolls.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44720659]One is a western-aided move to arbitrarily cement the national narrative conveniently the aid of the Ukrainian nationalist cause, the other is a one-sided amnesty for Maidan protestors only, which is one of the separatists' demands to change.[/quote]
ukraine used to be a part of the russian empire and the ussr, only winning independence when the latter broke up
the ussr fucked over ukraine (especially during the holodomor, in which 6 million ukrainians died), so its no wonder they are still sore about the soviet union
[quote]...Russia allowed local anti-Kiev authorities to be set up in peace and a referendum to happen.[/quote]
All illegally and without international observers to check on the voting
[quote]Actually, as Kerry says, this has much potential to alter Western global leadership, and does much to illuminate the positions of important countries like China and India in regards to the west.
Russia isn't on the rise, but this has done much to shake up Western hegemony and revitalize many east slavs.[/QUOTE]
it wont help russia
the east slavs having a powerful state is a dying dream, and in the next few decades she will shrink back to the borders she should have after all of the moslem republics break off
Thank you for being civil so far. Usually our discussions aren't very pleasant.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720727]ukraine used to be a part of the russian empire and the ussr, only winning independence when the latter broke up
the ussr fucked over ukraine (especially during the holodomor, in which 6 million ukrainians died), so its no wonder they are still sore about the soviet union[/quote]
This is a very sore issue indeed, but not one Ukrainians are unified on. I don't want to take the thread off-topic, but whether there is truth to this or not (and the academic debate rages), it is being used to push an anti-Russian position and galvanize nationalists into a furor. That is what it's about at this point.
I understand you are an anti-communist, but there is another facet to this line than just being a good cold warrior. This isn't about breaking the back of Great Russian chauvinism or something, this is about the rise of Ukrainian chauvinism. This law represents that.
Besides, it's usually best for a government to not take such a partisan historical position.
[quote]All illegally and without international observers to check on the voting[/quote]
Meh, international law is just the privilege of great powers. The lack of observers is unfortunate, but it's clear Russia wanted to move quickly to insulate Crimea from the chaos. It could be worse, but Crimea was already showing signs of breaking with Kiev immediately after Feb 21, before Russian intervention. IIRC the city council there was one of the first to refuse to recognize Kiev, other cities like Donetsk, Lugansk, and Kharkov followed.
[quote]it wont help russia[/quote]
Maybe, maybe not. But it had to be done, Russia has entered a turning point in East-West relations. No longer is it sitting idly by trying to reconcile with the West as the latter corners it.
[quote]the east slavs having a powerful state is a dying dream, and in the next few decades she will shrink back to the borders she should have after all of the moslem republics break off[/QUOTE]
These next few decades will be interesting to see. Is it dying? Who knows. Where Ukraine goes will decide much.
You may find these interesting reads:
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/02/crimea-crisis-russia-ukraine-cold-war?CMP=fb_gu[/url]
[url]http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/24/the-brown-revolution-in-ukraine/[/url]
[QUOTE=Conscript;44720659]...Russia allowed local anti-Kiev authorities to be set up in peace and a referendum to happen.[/QUOTE]
Russia also installed a puppet ruler for the occasion and brought in "observers" hand-picked by Kreml. Resulting vote did not have pro-Ukraine option. Accounting that Tatars effectively boycotted the referendum, it had 95% voter turnout and 97% in favor of annexation. Seems legit.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44720264]Russia's nazi problem is mostly limited to thugs beating up immigrants and dressing up as cossacks. They aren't participating as the radical wing of a wider nationalist movement with foreign support and aren't trying to take power. Russia has no equivalent of Svoboda.
They keep saying 'nazi' because the legacy of Barbarossa and Banderists has a lot to do with Western Ukraine.
Even the European far-right, such as the [url=http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/ukraine-official-statement]BNP[/url], [url=http://xaameriki.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/golden-dawn-statement-on-developments-in-the-ukraine-and-persecution-of-orthodox-christians/]Golden Dawn[/url], and [url=http://www.frontnational.com/2014/03/urgence-humanitaire-en-ukraine-russophone-et-en-crimee-russe-le-front-national-appelle-au-dialogue-et-a-lapaisement/]Front Nationale[/url] have all issued condemnations for them basically serving as shock troops for pro-eu liberal oligarchs like Tymoshenko.
More false equivalency. Russia will always have more anti-fascists and communist sympathizers than nazis. Can't say the same about West Ukraine, which was historically detached from East Slavs in general.[/QUOTE]
You don't know that in all the Countries of the world, Russia has the most Neo-Nazi's that reign unchecked. Right?
[QUOTE=Vlevs;44720994]Russia also installed a puppet ruler for the occasion and brought in "observers" hand-picked by Kreml. Resulting vote did not have pro-Ukraine option. Accounting that Tatars effectively boycotted the referendum, it had 95% voter turnout and 97% in favor of annexation. Seems legit.[/QUOTE]
The guy was a known separatist as Crimea has had a secessionist movement since the 90s. Can you prove he was a puppet? Also, Crimean Autonomous Republic refused to recognize Kiev, the Russian flag was already flying outside the Sevastopol city council building, and [url=http://en.ria.ru/world/20140306/188125702/Crimea-to-Set-Up-Own-Law-Enforcement-and-Security-Services.html]it was already creating new independent state services.[/url] You seriously expect a referendum on joining Russia to have a 'pro-ukrainian' option to reverse course, recognize Kiev and join it instead? lol
And the Tatar community representative boycotted the referendum, not all individual Tatars.
[QUOTE=Conscript;44721204]The guy was a known separatist as Crimea has had a secessionist movement since the 90s. Can you prove he was a puppet? Also, Crimean Autonomous Republic refused to recognize Kiev, the Russian flag was already flying outside the Sevastopol city council building, and [url=http://en.ria.ru/world/20140306/188125702/Crimea-to-Set-Up-Own-Law-Enforcement-and-Security-Services.html]it was already creating new independent state services.[/url] You seriously expect a referendum on joining Russia to have a 'pro-ukrainian' option to reverse course, recognize Kiev and join it instead? lol
And the Tatar community representative boycotted the referendum, not all individual Tatars.[/QUOTE]
Well, Crimea already had government, head was suddenly replaced. The guy was installed immediately after "little green men" took over, and he then announced referendum for annexation. I might be just biased westerner, but that is enough circumstantial proof for me.
And let me laugh at your take on democracy. It's understandable that government made moves to distance itself from Kiev, but completely unacceptable that there was even no option to express contrary opinion. How the fuck does your twisted mind justify the fact that the referendum supposedly asking for people's opinion has already decided the outcome?
Going by VICE report boycott was quite efficient. And even if it weren't, the numbers are still absurd.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44720727]All illegally and without international observers to check on the voting[/QUOTE]
They actually did have international observers. The problem is the observers were hand-picked by Russia and all consisted of people like Conscript. They were indeed foreign observers, but they held very strong Russian bias's.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44710190]Ukraine has every right to protect its borders and Russia has no right to march right in thinking he owns the place[/QUOTE]
This has happened throughout history. This is not about rights, it's about conquering.
Every country has as much right to conquer another country as much as a country has the right to defend itself from a conquering country. Get it? Don't bring [I]rights[/I] into this because it's redundant.
Do you guys have too much spare time or something?
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