[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51487431][citation needed][/QUOTE]
Hamas has time travel technology, haven't you heard?
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;51487433][citation impossible][/QUOTE]
Why does he keep spreading lies without citation then? What is he getting at? Is he trolling us?
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51487311]Fair enough, but your feelings have no bearing on the fact that it can be argued to be a cultural genocide.
Hamas is an organisation that was founded in 1988, Israeli occupation started during the 3th of the 6 days in the 6 day war, thats 1967.
So Hamas started a conflict a full 21 years before the day of its founding by your logic...
Not only is that not what happened, its also a demonstrable lie built on the false premise that Hamas started the 6 day war (again, 21 years before they were founded). Israel did, and not against Hamas or Palestine but against [U]Egypt[/U]... Egypt lost pretty quick (hence the 6 days in 6 day war) and guess what... they are on the Israeli side now, [B]there is literally no fucking reason why this conflict needs to be perpetuated[/B] other then maybe simple imperialism.
Here, some education
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War[/URL]
You have shown to simply not understand what this conflict is about... neither party is blameless, and the people that started this conflict are no longer in the picture... its just 2 parties, team red and team blue flinging shit at each other in the best way possible with the limitations they have.
Both sides are shit, but at this point only Israel has the power to actually fix this massive cluster fuck and they actively choose not to for the last 30 years now... thats where Hamas comes in, the more desperate the position of Palestine becomes, the more violent Hamas gets.
The only way to solve this conflict permanently is to do exactly what you said Israel has no interest in... befriending the population of Gaza.
If they do that, 90% of the problems just evaporate... In a way you yourself must realise this is suspicious as fuck.[/QUOTE]
You're making a huge confusion out of things. I am talking about the specific conflict of Israel against Hamas. I am not talking about the entire Israel-Palestine conflict. The conflict over Gaza ended in 2005 when Israel left it alone, and Hamas revived it for no good reason. It's understandable that there is skepticism about the peace talks and giving back the west bank when Israel's decision to leave Gaza and its nearby surroundings has only brought the terrorism closer.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51487315]Who said I put it mostly on them?
When the death toll of Palestinians is ten times that of Israelis, it's not "slapping" them. You said it yourself, it's [I]disproportionate[/I] retribution.
Because between the ones who send missiles on them and those who hide among them to retaliate against the attackers, it's kinda clear cut for civilians who is the greater evil. The ones who kill them.
Not that I share that opinion, but it's not really hard to understand their point of view.
Well not believing shit like this would be a start:
Believing in the utter righteousness of [I]disproportionate[/I] military retribution for [I]mere intimidation[/I] while disregarding the lives of civilians on the other side of the border isn't going to tame the conflict in any way.
Not calling into question the validity of violently retaliating when said retaliation causes [I]ten times[/I] the amount of deaths you are trying to prevent for your own population is quite questionable. At which point does it become not worth it to kill population from outside the country to save your own? 10 of theirs for one of your own? 100 of theirs? Why not just nuke them if that further prevents deaths on your side?
At some point you have to stop and ask yourself if what you do is just.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say you put it mostly on them, it was a general observation.
The death toll of the Palestinians, as I keep saying, is an inevitable result of having to face a terrorist organization hiding in a very populated city. I don't like it, but that's how it is. It's inescapable when you fight an enemy like this.
The civilians would be wise to see that those who hide among them are the reason the missiles are falling on them in the first place. It's a shame that they don't. If people talked a bit more about Hamas and a bit less about Israel every time anything happens in the Gaza strip, maybe it would have helped.
I used the word "intimidation" but don't latch on to it, there's a difference between Iran talking big saying they will destroy Israel and Hamas actually bombing Israel with rockets. Hamas went beyond intimidation. I don't think Israel is completely disregarding the lives of the civilians of Gaza, but I do think they could be doing a better job. Still, I'm not seeing any alternative to their current response to the Hamas threat. In a conflict where any choice you make will fall in a morally grey zone and will always be questioned by people, Israel takes the choice that serves itself and its people.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51487450]Why does he keep spreading lies without citation then? What is he getting at? Is he trolling us?[/QUOTE]
People like to forget Hamas was founded [I]after[/I] the start of the first intifada.
Where Israel responded to civil disobedience and boycotts by deploying 80k soldiers and firing live rounds.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51487466]You're making a huge confusion out of things. I am talking about the specific conflict of Israel against Hamas. I am not talking about the entire Israel-Palestine conflict. [B]The conflict over Gaza ended in 2005 when Israel left it alone[/B], and Hamas revived it for no good reason. It's understandable that there is skepticism about the peace talks and giving back the west bank when [B]Israel's decision to leave Gaza and its nearby surroundings has only brought the terrorism closer.[/B][/QUOTE]
Today, in things that never fucking happened...
The occupation has not stopped a single day since the 6 day war, accourding to "obviously biassed and arab loving United Nations Security Council.
Id also like to point out that ive dispelled arguments you use like 5 posts ago, and so have several others yet you and others are still perpetuating them... i think a chance on an honest discourse at this point is totally lost.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51487466] The civilians would be wise to see that those who hide among them are the reason the missiles are falling on them in the first place. It's a shame that they don't. If people talked a bit more about Hamas and a bit less about Israel every time anything happens in the Gaza strip, maybe it would have helped.[/QUOTE]
If Israel could ever think about its own role in why they are hated that would also probably help.
[quote=Wikipedia]In the intifada's first year, Israeli security forces killed 311 Palestinians, of which 53 were under the age of 17. Over the first two years, according to Save the Children, an estimated 7% of all Palestinians under 18 years of age suffered injuries from shootings, beatings, or tear gas. Over six years the IDF killed an estimated 1,162–1,204 Palestinians. Between 23,600-29,900 Palestinian children required medical treatment from IDF beatings in the first 2 years. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada"](Link)[/URL][/quote]
So much of the blame for this long standing conflict can be put on Israel. Israel effectively trained an entire generation to fight them as hard as possible.
Again, nobody here is trying to say this entire conflict is solely the fault of Israel. We are merely trying to say that it would be ridiculous to saddle the entire conflict on the opposing side for the same reasons the blame cannot be exclusively applied to Israel.
Mods should start banning/closing Israel-Palestine threads. Too much shit-flinging from both side including some people with unexplainable extreme hate boner.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51487466]I didn't say you put it mostly on them, it was a general observation.
The death toll of the Palestinians, as I keep saying, is an inevitable result of having to face a terrorist organization hiding in a very populated city. I don't like it, but that's how it is. It's inescapable when you fight an enemy like this.[/QUOTE]
Is it really? Sometimes the best move is not to play.
[QUOTE]The civilians would be wise to see that those who hide among them are the reason the missiles are falling on them in the first place. It's a shame that they don't. If people talked a bit more about Hamas and a bit less about Israel every time anything happens in the Gaza strip, maybe it would have helped.[/QUOTE]
It's really easy to say that when pro-Israel people show the exact same mentality of not calling themselves or the country they support into question.
[QUOTE]I used the word "intimidation" but don't latch on to it, there's a difference between Iran talking big saying they will destroy Israel and Hamas actually bombing Israel with rockets. Hamas went beyond intimidation. I don't think Israel is completely disregarding the lives of the civilians of Gaza, but I do think they could be doing a better job. Still, I'm not seeing any alternative to their current response to the Hamas threat. In a conflict where any choice you make will fall in a morally grey zone and will always be questioned by people, Israel takes the choice that serves itself and its people.[/QUOTE]
Have you considered the possibility of not retaliating - or limiting retaliation - against Hamas?
Like I said, at which point when it comes to foreign civilian casualties does it stop being worth it to bomb others to protect your own citizens? 10 for 1? 100 for 1? 1000 for 1? Protecting your own isn't objectively the better thing to do when you sacrifice so many for the sake of doing it.
I've started doing some research on the matter and it has become pretty clear to me that I didn't know enough and didn't base myself off of unbiased sources when making some of the claims I've made. I apologize, I probably won't be responding anymore since there won't be much of a point to it now that I know I was wrong in some key aspects.
Hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time, Axel and Blizzerd.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51487606]He is wrong and you are wrong. Israel left Gaza. Just not the West Bank.[/QUOTE]
Israel controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its import of water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.
Its under occupation and if you want to argue that its not then you are basically arguing from technicalities, as understood from the UN and UN human rights council arguments that it has never left occupation... so no, for all intents and purposes [citation needed] on that [QUOTE]and you are wrong.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bertie;51487617]I've started doing some research on the matter and it has become pretty clear to me that I didn't know enough and didn't base myself off of unbiased sources when making some of the claims I've made. I apologize, I probably won't be responding anymore since there won't be much of a point to it now that I know I was wrong in some key aspects.
Hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time, Axel and Blizzerd.[/QUOTE]
No problem, it's already quite honest on your part to admit that.
I'm not extremely knowledgeable about the subject myself, to be fair.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51487617]I've started doing some research on the matter and it has become pretty clear to me that I didn't know enough and didn't base myself off of unbiased sources when making some of the claims I've made. I apologize, I probably won't be responding anymore since there won't be much of a point to it now that I know I was wrong in some key aspects.
Hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time, Axel and Blizzerd.[/QUOTE]
You have my respect and gratitude, If more people were like you world peace would be obtainable.
All I'm going to say further on this is that the Israel/Palestine situation in some way reminds me of Northern Ireland and the hate and violence between Catholic Nationalists and Protestant Unionists there. It's not directly comparable nor would I want to compare it, but I would hope that people the Peace Process in Northern Ireland could be a model on which conflicts like Israel/Palestine could be solved.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51486894]Israel actively tries to prevent civilian casualties by calling and texting the people who are in the building that is getting bombed[/QUOTE]
Oh, that makes it okay then.
RING RING
Hello, we're about to war crime you. Start running. Have a nice day!
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51485440]So the fact that some families were kind enough to hide people makes the other few dozen killings okay?
You can compare this to the crusades, when a certain german lord marched his armies through a part of the Rhineland, he decided to massacre the Jews that lived there. Many Jews were killed but the local bishop gave a lot of Jews sanctuary and protested against it.
Just because someone did something good doesn't invalidate the underlying cultural problems that sparked the killings.[/QUOTE]
I like how you twist me calling out your bullshit hyperbole into me some how saying a few dozen killings are ok. Sorry if almost 6 times as many people getting saved as killed doesn't fit your narrative that the Arabs "slaughtered Jews wholesale".
[QUOTE=Hammer7;51487592]Mods should start banning/closing Israel-Palestine threads. Too much shit-flinging from both side including some people with unexplainable extreme hate boner.[/QUOTE]
It's their right to do so. Don't shut down arguments because of it.
everyone wants peace between them, but do you really think it's possible?
it won't happen as long as Israelis are taught since birth that they're just trying to peacefully live here but evil Arabs keep attacking them, that this is their land that God gave it to them and others are trying to take it from them, that Israel is the big home of the Jews and Israel only does this for their religion, and that whoever is defending his country or disagree/hate Israel is a terrorist.
and as long as Palestinians are also taught since birth that this is their country and Israel stole it, that they're only born here to defeat their enemy and get back their right, that attacking civilians and showing how much you hate them will help, that hamas and fateh are good leaders and only doing what's necessary (seriously, they're not only terrorists but they're also traitors), that they need to fight with whatever is available to them even if it's a stick (seriously the fuckers have godlike aim with rocks)
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51487924]Please offer an alternative.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=_Axel;51487614]Have you considered the possibility of not retaliating - or limiting retaliation - against Hamas?
Like I said, at which point when it comes to foreign civilian casualties does it stop being worth it to bomb others to protect your own citizens? 10 for 1? 100 for 1? 1000 for 1? Protecting your own isn't objectively the better thing to do when you sacrifice so many for the sake of doing it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]This is like people arguing against the nuclear strikes on Japan in WW2. Yes, it was abhorrent, and yet, it was the best, most humane course of action. The alternative entailed far more causalities for [i]both sides.[/i][/QUOTE]
Would alternatives to shelling Palestinian houses entail far more casualties for both sides? Doesn't really seem like such a clear conclusion to me.
[QUOTE=FlandersNed;51488158]It's their right to do so. Don't shut down arguments because of it.[/QUOTE]
I don't mind calm and polite discussion but it gets dirty pretty fast. Starting from second page there are already people calling each other nazi jews or pro-hamas.
Literally /pol tier circus.
Is everyone forgetting that almost half of the government voted against this bill, and that the only reason it passed is because the orthodox and ultra-orthodox parties are allied with the majority government?
Why is everyone thinking that all of Israel supports this?
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51488514]Not retaliating isn't the solution. Because;
• The Israeli public will not tolerate a non-responsive policy by the government. When we have 300 terrorist incidents of not only rockets, but also stabbings, vehicular manslaughter, gun-related serial killings, and the recently discovered new tactic, nation-wide arson - it is far-fetched to assume many will comply with the government's decision when the corpses start piling up. We already have a fairly strong and large portion of the population believing that Israel's policy, as is, where by some estimates every 1 Israeli death is worth about 50 Palestinians on average, is not nearly enough. And that the government is "too lax". Refer to the recent trial of Elor Azaria.[/QUOTE]
I don't really see how that's agreeable, though, that 1 to 50 ratio in particular.
[QUOTE]• "Protecting your own isn't objectively the better thing to do when you sacrifice so many for the sake of doing it." - I personally agree, but this directly contradicts the very premise of a country. The obligation of which, first and foremost, is the protection and safeguard of its own citizens.[/QUOTE]
That might be what a country is defined as in theory, but in practice that's not really how they operate. Countries do not systematically safeguard their citizens, for instance some countries may not require the extradition of citizens who have been wrongly imprisoned abroad if they fear it would create diplomatic tensions with the foreign country in question.
[QUOTE]Furthermore, it can also be argued that by not responding to the very attackers who, quite literally, endanger your own existence, it would only serve to invigorate them to commit even more attacks, and on a much larger scale.[/QUOTE]
It could also be argued that bombing Palestine is indirectly responsible for Israeli civilians' deaths because it fans the flame of extremism for those who are unjustly hit by those bombs which leads to stronger support for terrorists. This support might dwindle if the cycle of violence is broken. It's hard to be certain of what the implications are.
[QUOTE]• Most of the time, the shelling of Palestinian houses is the result of human-shield tactics used by Hamas, wherein they use civilian houses to store live ammunition in order to prompt a shelling - clearing out of the place before the shelling can commence by exploiting the very same system Israel uses to protect Palestinian civilians, and then reap the rewards of both the Palestinian population who views the shelling as unprecedented and completely uncalled for, which in turn raises funds, support and manpower for Hamas.[/QUOTE]
This actually seems like an argument against retaliating. What I gather from this is that Hamas uses the fact that you aren't afraid of bombing suspected terrorist sites against you to keep afloat. What's the point of bombing them then? If that's what they rely on to keep the ball rolling then a possible solution would be to not give them what they want and let attrition eat at them.
[QUOTE]• Hamas needs to be taken out of the picture before literally any peace process can take place. The thing that people keep glossing over when they say that Israel has "all the power" to change the situation, is the fact that you cannot negotiate with terrorist organizations posing as functioning governments. Their core demands are always completely infantile, because that's the point. Hamas doesn't want peace, nor does it care about the citizens of Gaza. It cares only about prolonging the conflict for as long as possible in order to maximize net profits. To squeeze every last drop of international aid, for them to immediately pocket.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, but do you really think the current strategy is going to change that? It seems to me like you're stuck in a perpetual conflict loop that only a change of behavior on your part would break. Since the current situation is what Hamas wants they aren't going to change their ways. Retaliation that plays right into the hand of the terrorist group and causes high casualties that further cements the hatred for Israel doesn't look like something that would help with that.
[QUOTE]Change must come from the Palestinian people. Not Hamas or the PLO. The people themselves who are living wrecked future-less lives in shitholes when they could have assimilated into a flourishing country decades ago and join the largest minority in Israel that is thriving and enjoys equal rights and equal opportunities across all aspects of life.[/QUOTE]
Whoa there, if you're going to retrospectively criticize the choices of those who decided to remain out of your country, we might as well go the whole way and say that Israel shouldn't have been created in the first place, since that's where all those tensions stem from in the first place. That's not being fair to the people who didn't have the hindsight we now rely on. (Not to mention those who were born afterwards or were too young to choose for themselves)
It might seem like a stupid choice for you now, but I completely understand why people would be hesitant or reluctant to let themselves be assimilated into a foreign nation they don't know much about.
[QUOTE=Bertie;51487617]I've started doing some research on the matter and it has become pretty clear to me that I didn't know enough and didn't base myself off of unbiased sources when making some of the claims I've made. I apologize, I probably won't be responding anymore since there won't be much of a point to it now that I know I was wrong in some key aspects.
Hope this wasn't too much of a waste of your time, Axel and Blizzerd.[/QUOTE]
This is a very surprising resolution
Thank you for doing your own research, no matter what conclusion you came to.
[editline]7th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51487924]Please offer an alternative.
Seriously, go on ahead. This is like people arguing against the nuclear strikes on Japan in WW2. Yes, it was abhorrent, and yet, it was the best, most humane course of action. The alternative entailed far more causalities for [i]both sides.[/i]
This entire thread reads like one bad shitpost filled with people starwmanning the shit out of the argument and citing isolated incidents and statistics, bringing up the "K/D" ratio of Israelis and Palestinians as an honest metric to establish who the "bad guys" of this conflict are. And what truly bothers me is that people actually agree with this sentiment. Nobody called Radical_ed out on his chain of argumentative nonsensical babble.
The Israel-Palestine conflict will never be solved precisely because of this reason. It has been going on for so long, that the argument no longer promotes honesty or intellectualism. It has basically become a contest of who is more guilty. Good thread.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you go ahead then and call me out then? Go put up some information that disproves what I said instead of labelling it "nonsensical babble". Israel is in control, and it benefits them greatly to continue the conflict.
Here's a resolution; Israel does some research, finds out what they need to to do make Palestine feel less like there's a hostile power encroaching on their land (Hint; the solution might be easier than you think!), and draft a peace treaty that reaches what the citizens of Palestine ACTUALLY want and need. If Israel stops antagonizing, maybe helps Palestine out a bit with their problems (that Israel caused), and manages to convince at least a fraction of the population that they are not the bad guys, the violence will greatly decrease.
You talk about shitposting and then you waltz in, vaguely lay down a statement about why it's a-ok to murder civilians as the ends justify the means, and then declare everyone [I]else[/I] the idiots? Ok.
Also, the hell are you trying to say with this?
[quote]people strarwmanning the shit out of the argument and citing isolated incidents and [B]statistics[/B][/quote]
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51489060]
You continue to make no distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people. You treat it as a whole, as a unified enterprise of consenting individuals rather than an oppressive and violent group of people that actively harms and subjugates those who aren't interested.
[/QUOTE]
Right, I forgot Hamas drew it's members from thin air, and not from disgruntled, battered, and afraid Palestinians.
[quote] I merely stated that they play a key role in the peace process and the quicker they understand who it is that is actually harming them more-so than Israel ever could - the better. They are a collective of people battered and exhausted from war, sanctions and scarcity. Their minds being drilled into daily that the demon responsible for their misfortunes is Israel.[/quote]
Hmm this sounds an awful lot like if they were helped to understand that they can be friendly with Israel, instead of fearing them (justly, currently), things would get better. But what do I know! I [I]clearly[/I] don't understand the conflict at all!
[quote]That statistics don't actually mean anything without context behind them.[/quote]
You can feels before reals all you want but a death ratio of 50:1 is [I]never[/I] going to be forgiven by the Palestinians unless Israel does some major work to improve relations.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51489325]Hamas' recruitment is the exception to the rule. Not every Palestinian wants to be a part of it. It's not nearly as widespread as you think. Furthermore, it's impossible to even put a definitive number on their recruitment numbers simply because any person might at any time claim to be a part of it (theoretically, this also allows to skew civilian-combatant death ratios). They don't wear uniforms unless they're posing for photos or filming yet another propaganda video to be broadcasted on their national channels.
The situation is too complicated to be able to "help Palestinians understand" that we are not the enemy. They dont exactly take our word for it, years of propagandist rhetorics have already left their marks on the population, and yet I maintain the belief that younger generations, the majority of which are just completely exhausted from a conflict they've been born into, will lead the change in the coming years.
Also the only one "feels before reals"-ing here is you, by flaunting around the number of deaths over an arbitrary number of years to prove some point about us genociding Palestinians or something. It is important to understand and study each case with methodical research to be able to fully understand all the factors that led to the death of those civilians. Who gave the orders, on what grounds, why, and the bigger picture behind it all.[/QUOTE]
Civilians dying is now feels before reals
[QUOTE=Hammer7;51488245]I don't mind calm and polite discussion but it gets dirty pretty fast. Starting from second page there are already people calling each other nazi jews or pro-hamas.
Literally /pol tier circus.[/QUOTE]
this is the worst Israel/Palestine thread I've seen tbh, I don't understand how people aren't banned for calling other people Nazis for no reason or stereotyping Jews for no reason.
[QUOTE]Hmm this sounds an awful lot like if they were helped to understand that they can be friendly with Israel, instead of fearing them (justly, currently), things would get better. But what do I know! I clearly don't understand the conflict at all!
[/QUOTE]
You seriously don't understand the conflict. The Palestinian leaders have no interest in being friendly with Israel because once they become friendly with Israel, the international aid flow slows down and they can't skim as much. Add in the anti-semitism that's popular in Arab culture where they demonize Jews, the justification for killing Jews from the Quran thanks to Islamism being one of the political movements that Palestinians use, and how the Palestinians glorify a culture of death where if you die as a martyr against Israel, you are celebrated. The Palestinian people don't want peace, otherwise they would stop attacking. If Israel dropped its weapons now, its civilians would be killed wholesale while if Palestine dropped its weapons now, the peace talks would actually get somewhere because Israel wouldn't have to worry about being attacked by Palestinians as a result of the peace deals.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51490015]
Because that's not how forums work, and you are no less guilty of threadshitting with arguments that hold little weight all throughout.
You should also really reconsider your paranoia about people who criticize Israel, believing that they have some hidden antisemitic agenda, not only are you falling for a stereotype that only weakens your argument, it's also not a very healthy mindset, that is actually one of the fundamental problems in Israeli society. The tribalism and "everyone is against us" rhetoric believed by many is one of the key things that continue to fuel this conflict while further isolating the country itself.[/QUOTE]
Where did I call people who criticize Israel anti-semitic? The entire "everyone is against us" mindset comes from the UN's bias against Israel and the fact that we've been attacked from all sides multiple times with very little help or sympathy from other countries.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;51490015]These kind of off-handed quips are the main reason you cant have a decent discussion on SH about anything related to Israel-Palestine. You clearly dont care about Palestinians dying, so why pretend that you do when you won't even bother researching and understanding the very thing you condemn?
[/QUOTE]
Ok, first of all, stating that I "clearly don't care" is just ridiculous. If I didn't care, why would I be discussing it? It's a tragic loss of human life and it's absolutely insane that a modern, funded country would even consider behaving like Israel does. It's not an unneeded quip, it's a FACT that you are either ignoring, or you just genuinely don't give a shit about. You're stating the circumstances justify murdering that many civilians, when history in the region has clearly shown that not only is it not effective, it leads to even more retaliation.
The real reason people can't have discussions about Israeli-Palestinian relations is people like you, that write off what is happening as a necessary evil (or act like Palestine is some devil), and completely ignore the reality of the situation, and instead insert your own. Judging by your statements thus far, you not only do not care about Palestinian lives, but are completely fine having them continue to die.
If you actually take a moment to reflect, many of your positions are the exact same as mine, but for some reason you are deflecting everything I say, as I "do not understand". You know who really appears to not understand? You. It appears that you look at this cyclical violence, and spit out whatever propaganda you are fed. You don't understand the substance of your own arguments. You don't actually care about the slain Palestinians, if you did, you wouldn't disregard their lives so easily. You speak of them as an enemy that has been beaten, rather than a people that was violently overtaken over the course of several years.
[quote] I very much wish for Israel to take drastic measures in the opposite direction for once and employ some sort of system that actively discourages retaliatory strikes, in the hope that, with some properly executed counter-propaganda campaigns, would encourage change and a chance to finally make peace.[/quote]
Is the exact same argument as
[quote]finds out what they need to to do make Palestine feel less like there's a hostile power encroaching on their land (Hint; the solution might be easier than you think!), and draft a peace treaty that reaches what the citizens of Palestine ACTUALLY want and need.[/quote]
UNLESS you are implying that they should just submit to rule under Israel. However, you still completely denied that anything I said was true, and claimed I was uneducated on the matter.
[B]Furthermore, while you say that Hamas and Palestine are separate, you then go on to say that killing Palestinian civilians is a necessary retaliation. You claim that this is justified due to political reasons, and that is the single most fucking cowardly thing I have ever heard. Hamas is separate from Palestine, so the solution to a Hamas attack is murdering Palestinians? And this will be effective / is necessary because Israelites demand blood? That is so beyond twisted.[/B]
[QUOTE=Svinnik;51490168]Where did I call people who criticize Israel anti-semitic? The entire "everyone is against us" mindset comes from the UN's bias against Israel and the fact that we've been attacked from all sides multiple times with very little help or sympathy from other countries.[/QUOTE]
Israel gets 3b a year from the U.S. alone.
Want to see what being attacked from all sides looks like? Here's a map of Israeli vs Palestinian power in the region:
[quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/0nLHTIq.gif[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/8cSS7xM.gif[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/bFx98bf.gif[/img]
ending with
[img]http://i.imgur.com/egwDDi4.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
All arguments i feel are made, at this point its just a couple dogmatic hotheads taking fiction and propaganda dumps on reality.
Also lets not forget Israel started the 6 day war with egypt over "suspicious troop movements" on egypt soil by egypt forces.
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