Muslims must embrace our British values, David Cameron says
340 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ItchyBarracuda;27867475]Bravo Britain. I wish America and our President had the kind of balls your government and Prime Minister does.[/QUOTE]
I thought that Muslim immigrants generally adapted well to American culture.
[QUOTE=ItchyBarracuda;27867539]You deserve a standing ovation sir. Keep crying racism though if you really want them destroying your country that badly.[/QUOTE]
well excuse me
[editline]4th February 2011[/editline]
GREAT JOB CAMERON you made my mum embarrassed!
If you want to stop a culture dont force it to die. This happened to christianity and it only caused them to fight more. If you really want to do it you need to educate people. sure its hard but it would bring better results and wouldnt stop the free speech thing.
[QUOTE=ItchyBarracuda;27867539]You deserve a standing ovation sir. Keep crying racism though if you really want them destroying your country that badly.[/QUOTE]
a bloo bloo bloo my arguments are being criticized by someone who has explicitly stated that he hasn't read them. i sure put emotional stock in what he says. i sure hope he doesn't ram his debating-dick down my loser-hole
[QUOTE=thisispain;27866950]telling immigrants to speak english and teaching elements of a "common culture" (because who cares about the cornish and welsh rite?) is not what freedom and equality means
you might think you're clever by calling someone stupid or blind, but you're not "chap"[/QUOTE]
Cameron defining the common culture; "To be British is to believe in freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality"
I don't see why you're banging on about Cornwall (lol what?) and Wales being under-represented, seeing as they're part of Britain.
[QUOTE=thisispain;27866986]that's bollocks as well
are british punks not citizens? what about buddhists? what about atheists, ultimately british values and traditions are heavily entwined with the anglican church...[/QUOTE]
Again, Cameron isn't talking about specific groups with different beliefs to the Anglican Church. In fact it is the opposite, he is promoting freedom of religion. He is disowning extremists who preach against these core values.
[QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27867025]No, you didn't provide a good rebuttal to that claim. Claiming that immigrants can't really be called citizens if they don't want to follow the "traditions and values":
of the country is laughable because there are going to be millions of native-born xth-generation brits who don't follow whatever tradition or value you'd specify. What you are doing is creating not just a double standard but a single state-sanctioned culture which is the beginning of genuine, honest to god fascism.[/QUOTE]
You didn't include the rest of my post - I was referring to extremists and their attitude against core British values (as laid out two quotes above), not normal people. I don't know where the rest of your post has come from, perhaps you should calm down a bit before posting in the future? I know that certain countries of the world like to think that Britain is Airstrip One in the making but it really isn't the case.
The article mentions that schools will teach English to immigrants and their children will attend schools that follow the normal curriculum. It's not unreasonable for this to happen, and we're not saying "You're not allowed to follow your religion or speak your language anymore". If parents wish to teach their children about their native country, culture and language they can easily do it themselves or through private tutoring.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;27867034]The title of the article is part of the article, how was I to know that the telegraph is biased against Muslims? I assumed a news thread with a moderator posting in it wouldn't have a misleading title or racist article in it
But still,
sounds pretty racist to me
[editline]5th February 2011[/editline]
You're generalizing again[/QUOTE]
The title of the thread is the title of the article. It's not hard to detect when an article is showing prejudice towards a group.
You're right, that quote is racially motivated - it's positive discrimination. Cameron is referring to the attitude of multiculturalism. As well as the fear of appearing as a racist or as an intolerant person upon challenging such views - contrary to the spirit of multiculturalism.
It's kind of like having a new guest in your house who you want to impress and they say something a bit "off". You don't really want to challenge them at first as you're being polite because you want to get on with them, but then they keep doing it and you finally have to say "This is my house, and that isn't acceptable". This is pretty much what's happening.
[QUOTE=BANNED USER;27867130]There is a sense of irony here.
Meaning it's funny for when a country tells its immigrants to change their culture (in essence what Cameron wants to do) to the majority culture of Britain, when Britain itself spread across the planet much like a plague and assimilated its own beliefs and cultures to the existing cultures of those countries they colonized.
I'm not saying Britain is full of jerks or racists, I'm just saying its kind of funny for something your ancestors once did (if you are from Britain of course) to a country, to happen to yours.
Can't say I don't blame you guys though, it does seem to be a bit of a problem with large amounts of folks challenging the existing system.[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with asking people coming to our country to respect freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality?
[QUOTE=Kalibos;27867330]well wow
first how do you define an entire country's values and traditions (since even white god-fearing native brits like different things) and who defines them?
second what do you propose doing with these not-citizens, ex-brits and nonconforming immigrants alike? reeducation?[/QUOTE]
David Cameron, the Prime Minister did.
"To be British is to believe in freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality"
I wholeheartedly agree with him.
I would imagine that the extremists who are trying to radicalise people and promote violence will be no longer tolerated. They will probably be deported, or they may even leave of their own accord once they realise they can no longer do this.
What do you mean by "Re-education"?
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867599]Cameron defining the common culture; "To be British is to believe in freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality"
I don't see why you're banging on about Cornwall (lol what?) and Wales being under-represented, seeing as they're part of Britain.
Again, Cameron isn't talking about specific groups with different beliefs to the Anglican Church. In fact it is the opposite, he is promoting freedom of religion. He is disowning extremists who preach against these core values.
[/QUOTE]
like i said it's a cop-out, it's a bit strange to talk about common culture when there really is no common culture
in either case, the idea of british values is stupid.
especially when freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality is not something britain has had or even arguably has
gay marriage is not legal in the united kingdom, yet equal rights regardless of sexuality is a british value?
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867620]like i said it's a cop-out, it's a bit strange to talk about common culture when there really is no common culture
in either case, the idea of british values is stupid.
especially when freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality is not something britain has had or even arguably has
gay marriage is not legal in the united kingdom, yet equal rights regardless of sexuality is a british value?[/QUOTE]
I don't think you're in a position of being able to comment on common culture in Britain, considering the fact you live in Los Angeles and the fact you're posting from a USA IP address.
Equality and freedom aren't stupid.
I would think the Human Rights Act 1998 and the European Convention of Human Rights would beg to differ with you there.
You're right, gay marriage still isn't legal here. However, civil partnerships are and legally speaking they're exactly the same.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867659]I don't think you're in a position of being able to comment on common culture in Britain, considering the fact you live in Los Angeles and the fact you're posting from a USA IP address.[/QUOTE]
please attack my argument, not my person
and you'd think knowing all that you'd know that i was born in england and lived there for most of my life
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867674]please attack my argument, not my person
and you'd think knowing all that you'd know that i was born in england and lived there for most of my life[/QUOTE]
I am attacking your argument - it is based on your experience. How old were you when you moved away from Britain? Did you ever vote? Anyone even remotely involved in politics knows that those principles, those values - are common across the whole of Britain.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867659]
You're right, gay marriage still isn't legal here. However, civil partnerships are and legally speaking they're exactly the same.[/QUOTE]
well that's just a jim crow argument, separate but the same.
and as far as democracy goes, england is not nearly as open and voter friendly as say the US is
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867704]well that's just a jim crow argument, separate but the same.
and as far as democracy goes, england is not nearly as open and voter friendly as say the US is[/QUOTE]
I don't know who Jim Crow is. What do you mean, we're not "open and voter friendly"?
Also, I would be interested in your reasoning behind why you think that Britain does not have freedom of speech and religion as well as equal rights.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867703]I am attacking your argument - it is based on your experience. How old were you when you moved away from Britain? Did you ever vote? Anyone even remotely involved in politics knows that those principles, those values - are common across the whole of Britain.[/QUOTE]
bullshit
i'm utterly uninterested in comparing and judging our life experiences, such things are utterly irrelevant
those principles are obviously not common across the whole of britain, pretending that britain is the vanguard for such things is ridiculous. why are there defamation laws and outlawed literature? why do we pay taxes to the anglican church, even when we don't support it?
[editline]4th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867718]
Also, I would be interested in your reasoning behind why you think that Britain does not have freedom of speech and religion as well as equal rights.[/QUOTE]
you misunderstand my angle, yes britain does have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but to a certain extend and i sincerely reject the idea that it's somehow a british value
it's more a french value considering many of the ideas come from there
in the end it boils down to what do you call a british value. to me, the word is not obvious, and it doesn't mean anything. all it does is remind of stupid nationalistic talk about how "britain's culture" is somehow superior to some other culture people have decided is antagonistic. instead of discussing this fruitless and useless exercise in us vs them politics, how about addressing actual issues that concern people.
I don't understand how people disagree that minority should adapt and not the other way around. Is it to fascist? I think not.
Adapt or get the fuck out. Simple, don't cry over it fucking do it.
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;27867793]I don't understand how people disagree that minority should adapt and not the other way around. [/QUOTE]
because that's not what liberalism is about
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867733]bullshit
i'm utterly uninterested in comparing and judging our life experiences, such things are utterly irrelevant
those principles are obviously not common across the whole of britain, pretending that britain is the vanguard for such things is ridiculous. why are there defamation laws and outlawed literature? why do we pay taxes to the anglican church, even when we don't support it?[/QUOTE]
Please don't swear, it's unnecessary. If you're getting angry, take a few minutes away from your computer.
I think you'll find that our life experiences are directly relevant, as you're commenting on an issue that requires direct experience to be able to comment on with any authority. Having lived in Britain up to the age of say, 16 is not good enough as you wouldn't be old enough to fully appreciate and understand civil liberties. I would say that even being 18 isn't good enough. I have only really thought about it properly in the past two years or so, and I'm 22. The fact that I haven't even thought about it until then is a testament as to how, in Britain, we take these principles for granted.
I think you'll find that those principles are common across the whole of Britain. Why would you say they're not? I'm not claiming that Britain is a "vanguard" for anything - there's no need to be so touchy.
As for the last three things, I can't really comment on them as I don't know anything about it. I can only really say that defamation laws exist to prevent unjustified slander of persons or companies. I don't personally know of any outlawed literature - what books have been outlawed recently? As for the taxes, perhaps it may be because it is the established church of England? I don't know. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;27867793]I don't understand how people disagree that minority should adapt and not the other way around. Is it to fascist? I think not.
Adapt or get the fuck out. Simple, don't cry over it fucking do it.[/QUOTE]
Because someone shouldnt have to adopt any ones culture of anyone that they dont want. If we were forced to adopt the culture of countries we went to then America would be filled with people hunting animals for food with sticks.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867806]Please don't swear, it's unnecessary. If you're getting angry, take a few minutes away from your computer.[/QUOTE]
i'm not angry, i just have a potty mouth
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867806]I think you'll find that our life experiences are directly relevant, as you're commenting on an issue that requires direct experience to be able to comment on with any authority. Having lived in Britain up to the age of say, 16 is not good enough as you wouldn't be old enough to fully appreciate and understand civil liberties. I would say that even being 18 isn't good enough. I have only really thought about it properly in the past two years or so, and I'm 22. The fact that I haven't even thought about it until then is a testament as to how, in Britain, we take these principles for granted.[/QUOTE]
yeah but ultimately it hasn't got much to do with anything
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867806]I think you'll find that those principles are common across the whole of Britain. Why would you say they're not? I'm not claiming that Britain is a "vanguard" for anything - there's no need to be so touchy.
As for the last three things, I can't really comment on them as I don't know anything about it. I can only really say that defamation laws exist to prevent unjustified slander of persons or companies. I don't personally know of any outlawed literature - what books have been outlawed recently? As for the taxes, perhaps it may be because it is the established church of England? I don't know. Perhaps you could enlighten me?[/QUOTE]
but you are missing my point. britain is nowhere close to having complete freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality, so why do we have to somehow chalk that up and start pushing it around as if it was somehow british culture. sure teach people about those things, absolutely no issue with that, but people don't see it that way, they see muslims as antagonistic and that they are somehow against freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality, which isn't true. ultimately, david cameron is reflecting those things.
i'm challenging the status quo, and david cameron believes the status quo should be taught
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867802]because that's not what liberalism is about[/QUOTE]
The only thing liberalism has been able to muster is a gap between we and them, they fucking gave birth to evil people like me.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867599]David Cameron, the Prime Minister did.
"To be British is to believe in freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality"
I wholeheartedly agree with him.
I would imagine that the extremists who are trying to radicalise people and promote violence will be no longer tolerated. They will probably be deported, or they may even leave of their own accord once they realise they can no longer do this.
What do you mean by "Re-education"?[/QUOTE]
Ok, here's the thing. Those are laws, not cultural aspects. If someone was to stray outside of those, their culture would not protect them. Muslim men cannot get away with beating their wives because it is in their culture so such things are already outlawed. There is a fair amount of tolerance for it given that the Anglo population does not even follow it themselves fully.
Free speech and equal rights gives an absurd amount of room in-between. It also does not cover many other aspects which can greatly decide someone's culture. There is far more to the Anglo culture than freedom of speech just as there is more to their culture that they can explore within free speech. Most of the conflicts are not about free speech, even between people who are not considered extremists. Such a definition is ignoring the entire issue and telling people to fit in when they already meet the criteria.
I think Cameron is wrong, by the values he just stated he should be tolerating their Muslim values equally as any other persons values - bloody hypocrisy.
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;27867884]The only thing liberalism has been able to muster is a gap between we and them, they fucking gave birth to evil people like me.[/QUOTE]
uh
what
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867733]you misunderstand my angle, yes britain does have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but to a certain extend and i sincerely reject the idea that it's somehow a british value
it's more a french value considering many of the ideas come from there
in the end it boils down to what do you call a british value. to me, the word is not obvious, and it doesn't mean anything. all it does is remind of stupid nationalistic talk about how "britain's culture" is somehow superior to some other culture people have decided is antagonistic. instead of discussing this fruitless and useless exercise in us vs them politics, how about addressing actual issues that concern people.[/QUOTE]
It's not an exclusively British value. I'm not saying that other countries don't hold the same values, or that we came up with it first. I'm saying that we, as a people, commonly adhere to these principles all across the country.
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867845]yeah but ultimately it hasn't got much to do with anything[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, it does I'm afraid. I can't really take your opinion in what values that British people hold if you're not actually been here to experience it and talk to people. And by talk to people, I mean in real life. Not over an internet connection.
[QUOTE=thisispain;27867845]but you are missing my point. britain is nowhere close to having complete freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality, so why do we have to somehow chalk that up and start pushing it around as if it was somehow british culture. sure teach people about those things, absolutely no issue with that, but people don't see it that way, they see muslims as antagonistic and that they are somehow against freedom of speech and religion, democracy and equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality, which isn't true. ultimately, david cameron is reflecting those things.
i'm challenging the status quo, and david cameron believes the status quo should be taught[/QUOTE]
You keep saying that we don't, but you're not substantiating your claims. I think that as far as countries go, we've got things pretty good over here.
They don't see Muslims as a whole as antagonistic - that's what I've been saying over and over again for the past two hours. They're not talking about regular Muslims, they're talking about extremists - the extremists who would claim wives as possessions, the extremists who oppress their countries, the extremists that would kill homosexuals for being themselves.
"We need to be clear: Islamic extremism and Islam are not the same thing"
It's nearly 0800 and I have work at 1300. Got to go to bed.
Oh don't worry, I'm sure once the double-edged sword that globalism is, within 50 years culture will be a thing of the past.
You can already see it over the internet.
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867947]
Well yeah, it does I'm afraid. I can't really take your opinion in what values that British people hold if you're not actually been here to experience it and talk to people. And by talk to people, I mean in real life. Not over an internet connection.[/QUOTE]
well i spent years being politically extreme in england so i can't even claim to know what british people really think
ultimately it's all coming out of my ass
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867947]They don't see Muslims as a whole as antagonistic - that's what I've been saying over and over again for the past two hours. They're not talking about regular Muslims, they're talking about extremists - the extremists who would claim wives as possessions, the extremists who oppress their countries, the extremists that would kill homosexuals for being themselves.
"We need to be clear: Islamic extremism and Islam are not the same thing"
It's nearly 0800 and I have work at 1300. Got to go to bed.[/QUOTE]
well to me the issue is bigger than purely what cameron said, a lot of people in england do view muslims themselves antagonistic. i've talked to people like that in england, france, the netherlands, the us, and of course on these very forums
cheers for hearing me out anyway
[QUOTE=Hezzy;27867947]You keep saying that we don't, but you're not substantiating your claims. I think that as far as countries go, we've got things pretty good over here.
They don't see Muslims as a whole as antagonistic - that's what I've been saying over and over again for the past two hours. They're not talking about regular Muslims, they're talking about extremists - the extremists who would claim wives as possessions, the extremists who oppress their countries, the extremists that would kill homosexuals for being themselves.
"We need to be clear: Islamic extremism and Islam are not the same thing"
It's nearly 0800 and I have work at 1300. Got to go to bed.[/QUOTE]
If they kill homosexuals, they get charged with murder. If they abuse their wives, they get charged with domestic violence. If they try to oppress their countries (?), then people will stop them.
There is no need to address the issue because the current systems in place are handling it just fine. Everything that they claim to be British culture is already law and straying outside it is punishable. Everything else that is different and problem causing is not addressed even though they claim to. This act does nothing and even further alienates Muslims because they are seen as needing to comply to a standard which they hardly realise was already in place.
[QUOTE=Fycix;27867984]within 50 years culture will be a thing of the past.[/QUOTE]
which is a sad thing
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;27867884]The only thing liberalism has been able to muster is a gap between we and them, they fucking gave birth to evil people like me.[/QUOTE]
Get help.
I like David Cameron. I thought his job directing Avatar was fucking fantastic, and I'm confident in his decisions as a Prime Minister.
wat
does this mean no more kebabs on a friday night?
[editline]5th February 2011[/editline]
whos going to drive me home when i'm fucking drunk
[QUOTE=ItchyBarracuda;27867522]Nah, I have a life.[/QUOTE]
It's 2 pages of posts, it's not a damn novel.
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