ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
1,592 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22437930]This is why you don't mix religion with politics.[/QUOTE]
Religion unfortunately is why Israel was formed.
There’s even been controversy over Hatikvah ; Israel national anthem due to its yearning of having a Jewish soul.
Not everyone has a Jewish soul, lol.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22438019]Religion unfortunately is why Israel was formed.
There’s even been controversy over Hatikvah ; Israel national anthem due to its yearning of being proud of having a Jewish soul.[/QUOTE]
And religion will probably be what ends it. petty. I'll go enjoy my atheism over here instead.
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22438005]I'm curious about one thing, and please answer this honestly.
Does Jews and Arabs in Israel have the same rights?[/QUOTE]
Arabs have all rights that citizens in a democratic country has, but Jews have a little more rights, for example the "right to return", which gives all non-Israeli Jews the right to receive citizenship and come to Israel.
Non-Jews can get citizenship as well, it's just harder than Jews to get one. For example if an Arabic citizen of Israel marries an Arabic non-citizen, I'm pretty sure the non-citizen can receive citizenship.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438046]Arabs have all rights that citizens in a democratic country has, but Jews have a little more rights, for example the "right to return", which gives all non-Israeli Jews the right to receive citizenship and come to Israel.
Non-Jews can get citizenship as well, it's just harder than Jews to get one. For example if an Arabic citizen of Israel marries an Arabic non-citizen, I'm pretty sure the non-citizen can receive citizenship.[/QUOTE]
Do Palestinians have the right to return to [b]their[/b] homeland?
[QUOTE=starpluck;22438063]Do Palestinians have the right to return to [b]their[/b] homeland?[/QUOTE]
Nope, they're bound to starve on that little fenced off area called Gaza.
[QUOTE=johnlukeg;22438007][URL="http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/06/kidnapped-israel-forsaken-britain"]This[/URL]
I think you'll want to read it.
[URL="http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/06/kidnapped-israel-forsaken-britain"] [/URL][/QUOTE]
Read about half of it. If this is to be taken as a credible source, then so should the "They had murder in their eyes" thing from the Israeli commando.
Wow.
Just finished reading all this; [URL]http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/06/kidnapped-israel-forsaken-britain[/URL]
Some British dude recounting his experiences.
I really have no words to describe it.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22438063]Do Palestinians have the right to return to [b]their[/b] homeland?[/QUOTE]
No, because then anyone would be able to say "hey I'm a Palestinian who fled from my home in '48, can I come back now?", and no one can prove him right or wrong, at least as much as I am aware of.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438087]Read about half of it. If this is to be taken as a credible source, then so should the "They had murder in their eyes" thing from the Israeli commando.[/QUOTE]All the activists claimed the same thing and none of their claims contradicted. But the IDF’s credibility has been none to be shit, and guess what; they edited the part of a radio transmission to make the Aid Ship seem like savages.
Guess who I believe? People who were proven to fabricate the story or the peace activists?
[editline]01:05PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438100]No, because then anyone would be able to say "hey I'm a Palestinian who fled from my home in '48, can I come back now?", and no one can prove him right or wrong, at least as much as I am aware of.[/QUOTE]Wrong.
They deny their right to return to their home and did not flee, but instead were forced out; I thought even you would know that. Apparently not.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438100]No, because then anyone would be able to say "hey I'm a Palestinian who fled from my home in '48, can I come back now?", and no one can prove him right or wrong, at least as much as I am aware of.[/QUOTE]
Atleast the activists gave consistant reports and you are still claiming 600 people forged a testimony while being imprisoned in Israeli jail.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22438116]All the activists claimed the same thing and none of their claims contradicted. But the IDF’s credibility has been none to be shit, and guess what; they edited the part of a radio transmission to make the Aid Ship seem like savages.
Guess who I believe? People who were proven to fabricate the story or the peace activists?[/QUOTE]
Didn't you read my posts above? They edited it and cut out a lot of silence. I mean think of yourself as a person who has heard nothing of the subject, or at least heard that Israel attacked the aid ship and 9 people got killed, then he comes up with a video filled with Silence with a few words every 30 seconds or so, would he keep on watching or listening? I don't think so.
I am uneasy about the IDF not stating right from the start that it was an edited video, big mistake.
[editline]03:07PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22438136]Atleast the activists gave consistant reports and you are still claiming 600 people forged a testimony while being imprisoned in Israeli jail.[/QUOTE]
Well 600 people were as far as I know inside the ship and didn't really know what happened, except for about 20 who were on the top deck.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438141]Didn't you read my posts above? They edited it and cut out a lot of silence. I mean think of yourself as a person who has heard nothing of the subject, or at least heard that Israel attacked the aid ship and 9 people got killed, then he comes up with a video filled with Silence with a few words every 30 seconds or so, would he keep on watching or listening? I don't think so.
I am uneasy about the IDF not stating right from the start that it was an edited video, big mistake.
[editline]03:07PM[/editline]
Well 600 people were as far as I know inside the ship and didn't really know what happened, except for about 20 who were on the top deck.[/QUOTE]
Why aren't the IDF releasing the unedited footage if they have nothing to hide? IDF have zero credibility at this point.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438141]Didn't you read my posts above? They edited it and cut out a lot of silence. I mean think of yourself as a person who has heard nothing of the subject, or at least heard that Israel attacked the aid ship and 9 people got killed, then he comes up with a video filled with Silence with a few words every 30 seconds or so, would he keep on watching or listening? I don't think so.
I am uneasy about the IDF not stating right from the start that it was an edited video, big mistake.[/QUOTE]
Stop, [I]fucking,[/I] [B]Compartmentalizing,[/B] [I][B]the argument.[/B][/I]
That is one of many important points, if you take them apart and refuse to look at them as a whole, no one is going to be able to communicate with you. Do you understand?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438046]Arabs have all rights that citizens in a democratic country has, but Jews have a little more rights, for example the "right to return", which gives all non-Israeli Jews the right to receive citizenship and come to Israel.
Non-Jews can get citizenship as well, it's just harder than Jews to get one. For example if an Arabic citizen of Israel marries an Arabic non-citizen, I'm pretty sure the non-citizen can receive citizenship.[/QUOTE]
I decided to look it up, and Wikipedia seems to say that while the Israeli Declaration of Independence states that there should be equal rights to all inhabitants, there seems to be more to it. And yes, I am aware that Wikipedia is not 100% accurate, but it seems to quote from the U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Discrimination[/url]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22438168]Stop, [I]fucking,[/I] [B]Compartmentalizing,[/B] [I][B]the argument.[/B][/I]
That is one of many important points, if you take them apart and refuse to look at them as a whole, no one is going to be able to communicate with you. Do you understand?[/QUOTE]
How am I compartmentalizing?
The point about the radio is that it was on an open channel, which they didn't mention until after people called it into question. Anyone sailing by within a large radius could have said those things.
Second, the Jerusalem Post article was from a man named "S." speaking on behalf of the Israeli government. The other is a British citizen providing a full explanation of everything that happened before and after the one minute clip that Israel released.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438203]How am I compartmentalizing?[/QUOTE]
Good question. Let's analyze his post.
[quote]All the activists claimed the same thing and none of their claims contradicted. But the IDF’s credibility has been none to be shit, and guess what; they edited the part of a radio transmission to make the Aid Ship seem like savages.
Guess who I believe? People who were proven to fabricate the story or the peace activists?[/quote]
This post references many important events. The first point is that none of the activists testimony contradict each other.
This is an important point, as not only do their stories corroborate, but they confirm the footage released by the IDF, before they knew the footage was released. So that's an important point.
Next, He references the fact that the IDFs crediblity is to shit. That is referencing many important events, be it the edited footage, the redacted claims of "mercenaries", the unwillingness for them to release security footage that would clear their name, the fact that one man was shot in the head four times at point blank. All of these events are being referenced by that point.
When you only address the, "they edited the part of a radio transmission to make the Aid Ship seem like savages." part of his post, you are being purposefully difficult.
Do you understand?
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22438191]I decided to look it up, and Wikipedia seems to say that while the Israeli Declaration of Independence states that there should be equal rights to all inhabitants, there seems to be more to it. And yes, I am aware that Wikipedia is not 100% accurate, but it seems to quote from the U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Discrimination[/url][/QUOTE]
Well let me try to explain each point of "The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices" here:
1. 93% of land isn't allowed to be leased or sold to Arabs - This is mostly lands where Arabs aren't even close to, the 7% is where the majority of Arabs live in Israel. There have been a lot of cases in recent years where Arabs have asked to build on or buy or lease lands inside these 93% of lands, and most of them have been accepted.
In short, this is indiscrimination, but it doesn't really matter and when it does the courts mostly judge towards democratic laws rather than Jewish laws or whatever way you see it.
2. Note that this is regarding the current government, as far as I know, and when a left-wing government is in power, which isn't rare or something, permits are being given a lot more often and illegal houses (note that most of these are houses that were built on the 93% of land, without permit) aren't being demolished as much.
3. Actually as far as I know there are socio-economic plans for Jewish cities and towns and socio-economic plans for the Arabic-majority areas, and the government tends to favor helping the weak rather than the poor, though it is considering the issue at hand. For example a lot of Bedouins in the south don't have access to medical help and supplies, but that is because the south is basically a big desert, and the Bedouins don't stay in one place but travel a lot, so it's not like Israel can build a hospital out there in the desert which would not serve the Bedouins much anyway since most of the time they'll probably not be anywhere near it.
Also note that the supreme court is against this discrimination and the government is always moving forward in giving Arabs helpful socio-economic plans as the Jews get.
4. I don't know much about the Galilee sadly, but from what I know the Arabs there mostly live in villages which are very close and I don't think Jews could just come between two close villages and pop up their own village or town or whatever. Again I don't know much about the Galilee so don't take my words for it.
5. The "Arabs can't join the military" thing isn't mostly true, for example the Druze which might be considered Arabs are allowed and make a great contribution to the military. The other Arabs are indeed not allowed to join, but, well, we are fighting against Arabs, so it's pretty weird having Arabs on your side of the fight. (Hopefully this won't sound too racist >_<). Note that Arabs can then go to the university as soon as they finished high-school, while Jews need to serve 2-3 years, which means the Arabs tend to get their degrees at a younger age which helps greatly in their job-findings (since people would rather take a 21y/o with a degree than a 21y/o without a degree or a 24 y/o with a degree).
6. Don't know much about that, and if it's true, I would rage.
7. Same as 3.
8. That sounds a little biased, since obviously there's a majority of Jews in universities rather than Arabs, since Jews are a majority in Israel. A 3 to 1 ratio in money investments actually is in favor of the Arabs, since they aren't even a third or a quarter of the students. Arabs though are saved spots in signing up to universities, so if for example a course of 40 students had 50 students applying, out of them 5 were Arabs, the 5 Arabs would most probably be accepted automatically regardless of their grades (if they at least make the minimum cut).
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438485]Well let me try to explain each point of "The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices" here:
1. 93% of land isn't allowed to be leased or sold to Arabs - This is mostly lands where Arabs aren't even close to, the 7% is where the majority of Arabs live in Israel. There have been a lot of cases in recent years where Arabs have asked to build on or buy or lease lands inside these 93% of lands, and most of them have been accepted.
In short, this is indiscrimination, but it doesn't really matter and when it does the courts mostly judge towards democratic laws rather than Jewish laws or whatever way you see it.
2. Note that this is regarding the current government, as far as I know, and when a left-wing government is in power, which isn't rare or something, permits are being given a lot more often and illegal houses (note that most of these are houses that were built on the 93% of land, without permit) aren't being demolished as much.
3. Actually as far as I know there are socio-economic plans for Jewish cities and towns and socio-economic plans for the Arabic-majority areas, and the government tends to favor helping the weak rather than the poor, though it is considering the issue at hand. For example a lot of Bedouins in the south don't have access to medical help and supplies, but that is because the south is basically a big desert, and the Bedouins don't stay in one place but travel a lot, so it's not like Israel can build a hospital out there in the desert which would not serve the Bedouins much anyway since most of the time they'll probably not be anywhere near it.
Also note that the supreme court is against this discrimination and the government is always moving forward in giving Arabs helpful socio-economic plans as the Jews get.
4. I don't know much about the Galilee sadly, but from what I know the Arabs there mostly live in villages which are very close and I don't think Jews could just come between two close villages and pop up their own village or town or whatever. Again I don't know much about the Galilee so don't take my words for it.
5. The "Arabs can't join the military" thing isn't mostly true, for example the Druze which might be considered Arabs are allowed and make a great contribution to the military. The other Arabs are indeed not allowed to join, but, well, [B]we are fighting against Arabs, so it's pretty weird having Arabs on your side of the fight. (Hopefully this won't sound too racist >_<).[/B] Note that Arabs can then go to the university as soon as they finished high-school, while Jews need to serve 2-3 years, which means the Arabs tend to get their degrees at a younger age which helps greatly in their job-findings (since people would rather take a 21y/o with a degree than a 21y/o without a degree or a 24 y/o with a degree).
6. Don't know much about that, and if it's true, I would rage.
7. Same as 3.
8. That sounds a little biased, since obviously there's a majority of Jews in universities rather than Arabs, since Jews are a majority in Israel. A 3 to 1 ratio in money investments actually is in favor of the Arabs, since they aren't even a third or a quarter of the students. Arabs though are saved spots in signing up to universities, so if for example a course of 40 students had 50 students applying, out of them 5 were Arabs, the 5 Arabs would most probably be accepted automatically regardless of their grades (if they at least make the minimum cut).[/QUOTE]
WHAT THE FUCK
No, that's fucking incredibly racist, what the fuck?
Sorry for being a lazy bonehead, but when exactly is the next aid ship going to Gaza? That ship that is going to have those ships from Iran to support them.
I'd love to see Iran and Turkey bring warboats to escort an aid ship :v:
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22438503]WHAT THE FUCK
No, that's fucking incredibly racist, what the fuck?[/QUOTE]
Well, if you're fighting against a specific country, you wouldn't want people who might think themselves to be more in favor of that specific country fighting alongside you, either.
I'm not saying the Arab citizens of Israel are like our enemies, but they just don't need to fight alongside us. Think about it this way, isn't it a little cruel to make an Arab fight against other Arabs?
Again, I'm not racist towards Arabs, I think it's obvious by my latest posts.
[editline]03:46PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22438281]Good question. Let's analyze his post.
This post references many important events. The first point is that none of the activists testimony contradict each other.
This is an important point, as not only do their stories corroborate, but they confirm the footage released by the IDF, before they knew the footage was released. So that's an important point.
Next, He references the fact that the IDFs crediblity is to shit. That is referencing many important events, be it the edited footage, the redacted claims of "mercenaries", the unwillingness for them to release security footage that would clear their name, the fact that one man was shot in the head four times at point blank. All of these events are being referenced by that point.
When you only address the, "they edited the part of a radio transmission to make the Aid Ship seem like savages." part of his post, you are being purposefully difficult.
Do you understand?[/QUOTE]
I see, sorry for that, but to me it seemed like the main part of his post.
Don't forget that some reports from the activists said that they in no way resisted the commandos, and that they never used weapons or whatever. For example Gerta Berlin said all that, but from what I understand she was down in the ship and didn't know what exactly happened on the deck.
So the activists' testimony is also not unbiased.
Arabs are always fighting other arabs :v:
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22438551]I'd love to see Iran and Turkey bring warboats to escort an aid ship :v:[/QUOTE]
Apparently they will.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438568][B]Well, if you're fighting against a specific country, you wouldn't want people who might think themselves to be more in favor of that specific country fighting alongside you, either.
I'm not saying the Arab citizens of Israel are like our enemies, but they just don't need to fight alongside us. Think about it this way, isn't it a little cruel to make an Arab fight against other Arabs?
Again, I'm not racist towards Arabs, I think it's obvious by my latest posts.[/B]
[editline]03:46PM[/editline]
I see, sorry for that, but to me it seemed like the main part of his post.
Don't forget that some reports from the activists said that they in no way resisted the commandos, and that they never used weapons or whatever. For example Gerta Berlin said all that, but from what I understand she was down in the ship and didn't know what exactly happened on the deck.
So the activists' testimony is also not unbiased.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck are you talking about? There are plenty of Arab Americans in the armed forces. What the fuck are you even talking about?
But you know what? I don't think you're racist.
I think you assume that everyone is as nationalistic as you are.
[editline]12:50PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438568]I see, sorry for that, but to me it seemed like the main part of his post.
Don't forget that some reports from the activists said that they in no way resisted the commandos, and that they never used weapons or whatever. For example Gerta Berlin said all that, but from what I understand she was down in the ship and didn't know what exactly happened on the deck.
So the activists' testimony is also not unbiased.[/QUOTE]
Which is true. Only 20-30 people out of 600 resisted. If she wasn't on deck what she said is completely accurate.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;22438585]Arabs are always fighting other arabs :v:[/QUOTE]
Yes but for a Jewish, non-Arab state to make the Arabs living inside its borders fight other Arabs, seems kinda weird to me.
Especially if the Arab citizens of Israel don't really agree with its policies and stuff, they would be fighting for something they're against, seems kinda cruel and weird to me.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438617]Yes but for a Jewish, non-Arab state to make the Arabs living inside its borders fight other Arabs, seems kinda weird to me.
Especially if the Arab citizens of Israel don't really agree with its policies and stuff, they would be fighting for something they're against, seems kinda cruel and weird to me.[/QUOTE]
That's because you don't look at them as people, you look at them as Arabs.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22438603]
Which is true. Only 20-30 people out of 600 resisted. If she wasn't on deck what she said is completely accurate.[/QUOTE]
It's accurate regarding the people she was with, down in the ship, but not for the people on the deck, so it's not really related even if it's credible.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22438624]That's because you don't look at them as people, you look at them as Arabs.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, nothing quite like a little Post-Colonial Theory application.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22438652]It's accurate regarding the people she was with, down in the ship, but not for the people on the deck, so it's not really related even if it's credible.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense. She is perfectly able to comment on how they were treated and if they were fired upon, she's simply unable to comment on what happened on the top deck, in the same way that the Al Jazeera reporter is unable to comment on what happened below deck.
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