• ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
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[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439126]And who got shot? The Twenty people who were not being peaceful. I know that there were some on Deck who were not attacking them and were just caught in the crossfire but with so many people running around in a giant mass, you can't expect the IDF to be able to figure out which ones attacked them and which ones didn't. Six Hundred people were not killed.[/QUOTE] From what the witnesses have said, the IDF fired before even sending people down, and the footage from the Live stream seems to agree with this scenario. They might have "only" been firing rubber coated steel bullets and shock grenades, but I'd say that's a pretty damn good way to cause panic in the people on the deck. Did you read the blog entry from the Al-Jazeera journalist that was posted earlier, or did you just discard it as biased?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439207]It's a legitimate one. Did the US allow Japanese people in the army during WWII? I don't think so.[/QUOTE] They were racist too. Your point? [B]EDIT:[/B] Also "It's okay to be racist if you're right and superior"
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439140]Forty people were shot. Thirty wounded, nine killed. Twenty were fighting on deck.[/QUOTE] I'm really not sure where you are getting this twenty number from. Did they come forward and volunteer that they were the ones attacking the soldiers? Wait a second, I'm getting off track here. My initial point was that despite being provoked, fighting back is still going to lose a lot of moral ground. If Israel had gone on and shot everyone with no resistance, then you can react the way you are. Because it was more of a riot than a slaughter, it's not an atrocity. It's still bad and every instance of someone being shot at a riot is, but it's not what it's made out to be.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439207]It's a legitimate one. Did the US allow Japanese people in the army during WWII? I don't think so.[/QUOTE] Uh yeah, actually. And what we did do to the Japanese American civilians was horrible and we all know that it was horrible.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;22439211]It's not an analogy... [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/10247437.stm[/url][/QUOTE] What I meant was that it's a lot weirder than not allowing Arabs in the IDF, and Israel on the other hand does allow marriages of that kind. In short, I don't see how the Egypt thing is related here. [editline]04:52PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439248]Uh yeah, actually. And what we did do to the Japanese American civilians was horrible and we all know that it was horrible.[/QUOTE] What they did to the civilians was indeed horrible, but not allowing them into the army was reasonable.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439246]I'm really not sure where you are getting this twenty number from. Did they come forward and volunteer that they were the ones attacking the soldiers? Wait a second, I'm getting off track here. My initial point was that despite being provoked, fighting back is still going to lose a lot of moral ground. If Israel had gone on and shot everyone with no resistance, then you can react the way you are. Because it was more of a riot than a slaughter, it's not an atrocity. It's still bad and every instance of someone being shot at a riot is, but it's not what it's made out to be.[/QUOTE] Oh, so that guy getting shot in the back of the head four times was just a riot action? The people shot in the back were charging at them?
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22439217]Did you read the blog entry from the Al-Jazeera journalist that was posted earlier, or did you just discard it as biased?[/QUOTE] I didn't see it, I only started reading the thread a few pages back. Not sure I really want to read a blog post from them but if you think it'll make a difference, point me in it's direction.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439249]What they did to the civilians was indeed horrible, but not allowing them into the army was reasonable.[/QUOTE] Uh, excuse me, we [I]did[/I] let them fight in the army.
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22439168]No, he's not smart enough for that.[/QUOTE] No he's quite good, he keeps spouting complex logical arguments and information mixed with tiny facts and lies And the fact that he doesn't give up
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439267]Oh, so that guy getting shot in the back of the head four times was just a riot action? The people shot in the back were charging at them?[/QUOTE] There's images like that for everything. The Israelis acted far too aggresively in breaking up the group but you can't use evidence for one side being evil to say the other side is good.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439246]I'm really not sure where you are getting this twenty number from. Did they come forward and volunteer that they were the ones attacking the soldiers? Wait a second, I'm getting off track here. My initial point was that despite being provoked, fighting back is still going to lose a lot of moral ground. If Israel had gone on and shot everyone with no resistance, then you can react the way you are. Because it was more of a riot than a slaughter, it's not an atrocity. It's still bad and every instance of someone being shot at a riot is, but it's not what it's made out to be.[/QUOTE] Are you fucking serious? "Ah well, it was a bit ok because some people decided to defend themselves." No, this was an atrocity no matter how you look at it.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439270]I didn't see it, I only started reading the thread a few pages back. Not sure I really want to read a blog post from them but if you think it'll make a difference, point me in it's direction.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you mean by "from them", but it's written by a British citizen who was on the upper deck the entire time, recounting what happened. [URL="http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/06/kidnapped-israel-forsaken-britain"]Here[/URL]
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439286]There's images like that for everything. The Israelis acted far too aggresively in breaking up the group but you can't use evidence for one side being evil to say the other side is good.[/QUOTE] Wow. That is the weakest excuse I have ever heard. "Yeah, people get shot in the back of the head four times at point blank range all the time in riots!"
Also, while we are talking about marriages: [url]http://coteret.com/2010/02/24/tel-aviv-presents-municipal-program-to-prevent-arab-boys-from-dating-jewish-girls/[/url]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439273]Uh, excuse me, we [I]did[/I] let them fight in the army.[/QUOTE] Did they fight on the pacific front?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439336]Did they fight on the pacific front?[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/history_heritage/voa_nisei_soldiers_0507.asp[/url] Read up for yourself, I'm not your teacher.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439306]Wow. That is the weakest excuse I have ever heard. "Yeah, people get shot in the back of the head four times at point blank range all the time in riots!"[/QUOTE] Well thanks for focusing on one part of it and ignoring the part that didn't make you feel angry. In your own words, Everyone is fucked up. Evidence of the Israeli soldiers being brutal doesn't make the people on the ship any more justified. It may be hard to understand but the other side being evil doesn't make what you do any less wrong.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439347][url]http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/history_heritage/voa_nisei_soldiers_0507.asp[/url] Read up for yourself, I'm not your teacher.[/QUOTE] I've read about it on the Wikipedia page (which mostly deals with the internment camps and all that) and it says that there were Japanese in the American army but in Europe, not in the pacific.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439401]Well thanks for focusing on one part of it and ignoring the part that didn't make you feel angry. In your own words, Everyone is fucked up. Evidence of the Israeli soldiers being brutal doesn't make the people on the ship any more justified. It may be hard to understand but the other side being evil doesn't make what you do any less wrong.[/QUOTE] Perhaps we should put this line of thought on hiatus until we either agree to accept the activist's stories or wait until Israel releases the uncut video. One minute in the middle of a half-hour skirmish doesn't really say much about anyone's justification for the conflict.
It's a little different since Japanese is a nationality. Arab is a ethnicity.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439430]I've read about it on the Wikipedia page (which mostly deals with the internment camps and all that) and it says that there were Japanese in the American army but in Europe, not in the pacific.[/QUOTE] Your point being?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439430]I've read about it on the Wikipedia page (which mostly deals with the internment camps and all that) and it says that there were Japanese in the American army but in Europe, not in the pacific.[/QUOTE] Well unless you're mistaken, that page is wrong. I personally know a Japanese person who served in the Pacific in World War 2, and have read the biographies of several others.
[QUOTE=johnlukeg;22439454]Well unless you're mistaken, that page is wrong. I personally know a Japanese person who served in the Pacific in World War 2, and have read the biographies of several others.[/QUOTE] Thus comes again the old adage, "but is it on Wikipedia?"
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;22439279]No he's quite good, he keeps spouting complex logical arguments and information mixed with tiny facts and lies And the fact that he doesn't give up[/QUOTE] Complex logical fallacies, propaganda mixed with tiny facts ad lies, yes. You might be right but I'm still convinced he's way too dumb to pull off a trolling like that. [editline]02:09PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439464]Thus comes again the old adage, "but is it on Wikipedia?"[/QUOTE] That is indeed the most important part. Is it on wikipedia?
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22439475]Complex logical fallacies, propaganda mixed with tiny facts ad lies, yes. You might be right but I'm still convinced he's way too dumb to pull off a trolling like that.[/QUOTE] If he is a troll he's the most dedicated, clever, depressingly lonely troll to ever live.
[QUOTE=johnlukeg;22439435]Perhaps we should put this line of thought on hiatus until we either agree to accept the activist's stories or wait until Israel releases the uncut video. One minute in the middle of a half-hour skirmish doesn't really say much about anyone's justification for the conflict.[/QUOTE] The Israeli military is a paranoid old bastard. They don't need a reason to not release it because the terrorists that they're engaged in WW3 with might manipulate it and destroy Israel with their magic. We're getting closer to the truth so why not preemptively figure out the things that we already know. It's pretty likely Israel fired tear gas and non-lethals onto the ship, live fire with the intention of killing them is not certain and won't be confirmed by a video taken 100m away. They attacked the soldiers, there was a mob of them with some deliberately attacking the soldiers and some just protesting or just happening to be up there. The soldiers opened fire and while it's disputed if they used apropriate force, shooting someone in the back of the head 4 times isn't a good sign. They treated the crew like animals after being attacked but it wasn't because they were evil, it's because they had already been attacked and didn't want it to happen again not including some of these guys have had their friends blown up by civlians with spontaneous combustion.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;22439440]Your point being?[/QUOTE] That they didn't fight against other Japanese. [QUOTE=johnlukeg;22439454]Well unless you're mistaken, that page is wrong. I personally know a Japanese person who served in the Pacific in World War 2, and have read the biographies of several others.[/QUOTE] OK, but the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is different than WWII, since WWII was only a few years long, and before that the Americans had nothing against Japanese and after that too. The Israelis however have been in conflict with the Arabs and Palestinians for a century now, which changes everything. For example in WWII the Japanese were probably already part of the military at the start of the war, while in Israel's situation the conflict has started before anyone alive today was even born.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439610]That they didn't fight against other Japanese. OK, but the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is different than WWII, since WWII was only a few years long, and before that the Americans had nothing against Japanese and after that too. The Israelis however have been in conflict with the Arabs and Palestinians for a century now, which changes everything. For example in WWII the Japanese were probably already part of the military at the start of the war, while in Israel's situation the conflict has started before anyone alive today was even born.[/QUOTE] So to oversimplify it: It's ok to be just a little racist if you've been nagging about the same shit for a couple of thousand years?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439610]OK, but the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is different than WWII, since WWII was only a few years long, and before that the Americans had nothing against Japanese and after that too. The Israelis however have been in conflict with the Arabs and Palestinians for a century now, which changes everything. For example in WWII the Japanese were probably already part of the military at the start of the war, while in Israel's situation the conflict has started before anyone alive today was even born.[/QUOTE] The US was friends with Japan before the war but the hatred for them went on long after the war. The US government was only friends with Japan because they had pretty much anhialated them and were in control of everything with a huge military presence to boot. The propaganda that was made in the War didn't suddenly not mean anything after the war and the US people still hated Japan just as much. Most old people I know still hate the Japanese and they didn't even fight.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439610]That they didn't fight against other Japanese. [/QUOTE] Tell me, how does this even matter?
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