ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
1,592 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439610]That they didn't fight against other Japanese.
OK, but the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is different than WWII, since WWII was only a few years long, and before that the Americans had nothing against Japanese and after that too.
The Israelis however have been in conflict with the Arabs and Palestinians for a century now, which changes everything. For example in WWII the Japanese were probably already part of the military at the start of the war[/QUOTE]
Most were drafted, but I think your WWII example has run its course, so no sense continuing with that.
Anyway, I'm under the impression that Arab citizens of Israel are not forced to serve in the military, but are allowed. I don't really have an argument-ready opinion on the matter at the moment. I suppose the biggest issue is the majority of Arabs being denied social services where having served in the military is a prerequisite.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439562]The Israeli military is a paranoid old bastard. They don't need a reason to not release it because the terrorists that they're engaged in WW3 with might manipulate it and destroy Israel with their magic.
We're getting closer to the truth so why not preemptively figure out the things that we already know. It's pretty likely Israel fired tear gas and non-lethals onto the ship, live fire with the intention of killing them is not certain and won't be confirmed by a video taken 100m away. They attacked the soldiers, there was a mob of them with some deliberately attacking the soldiers and some just protesting or just happening to be up there. The soldiers opened fire and while it's disputed if they used apropriate force, shooting someone in the back of the head 4 times isn't a good sign. They treated the crew like animals after being attacked but it wasn't because they were evil, it's because they had already been attacked and didn't want it to happen again not including some of these guys have had their friends blown up by civlians with spontaneous combustion.[/QUOTE]
You mention that the IDF probably opened fire first, and still say that the victim carries some of the blame. Is this some remnant of the "The Israeli army is the most moral army in the world"-propaganda that's still hanging around?
I'm posting this again: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_world_fallacy[/url]
Also, "You don't know what it's like!"
That bullshit doesn't work, if they were emotionally traumatized they shouldn't have been sent on a mission such as this in the first place, where they knew there were going to be a lot of civilians, I thought the IDF was supposed to be more professional than that.
Come to think of that, if the Israelis didn't expect there to be any violent response, why the hell did they send armed commandos? And in the middle of the night as well.
This shit of blaming the victim or trying to push for a "Ah well, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle." is pretty damning.
And yeah, we will probably never see IDF release that footage, so don't count on it.
[editline]04:31PM[/editline]
Also, let me just say this to some of you: You are literally giving the benefit of the doubt to people who blocked communications and are withholding/destroyed footage and evidence.
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22439628]So to oversimplify it: It's ok to be just a little racist if you've been nagging about the same shit for a couple of thousand years?[/QUOTE]
Racism is only racism if it isn't justified or related to the issue, for example saying "All blacks can't play poker" since being black obviously has nothing to do with not being able to play poker.
However, there is a legitimate concern in allowing the Arabs into the IDF, and if you can't see that, I don't think I can explain it.
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22439714]You mention that the IDF probably opened fire first, and still say that the victim carries some of the blame. Is this some remnant of the "The Israeli army is the most moral army in the world"-propaganda that's still hanging around?
I'm posting this again: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_world_fallacy[/url]
Also, "You don't know what it's like!"
That bullshit doesn't work, if they were emotionally traumatized they shouldn't have been sent on a mission such as this in the first place, where they knew there were going to be a lot of civilians, I thought the IDF was supposed to be more professional than that.
Come to think of that, if the Israelis didn't expect there to be any violent response, why the hell did they send armed commandos? And in the middle of the night as well.
This shit of blaming the victim or trying to push for a "Ah well, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle." is pretty damning.
And yeah, we will probably never see IDF release that footage, so don't count on it.[/QUOTE]
I never said they didn't expect a confrontation, I never said the victims deserved it, I never said Israel was right (I made a point to say the opposite), where the fuck did I say "You don't know what it's like" and the truth is never at the extremes so don't act like that's possible.
I said that they fired on them first, just using live fire rounds from a helicopter to try and kill them sound a little implausible. I said the Israeli army fired on them first as that is the most likely scenario now but they certainly aren't moral or have their actions justified. They weren't traumatised, they were aggressive. It's hard to be so professional that you don't have any kind of emotional reaction when you are beaten and have your friends nearly unconscious, but being in a hostile mental state doesn't justify shooting someone in the back of the head 4 times.
As for blaming the victim, if I haven't stressed enough that Israel is to blame for part of it, they still attacked them for fucks sake. You aren't a victim anymore when you start fighting back and especially not when you are doing a good job of it. There were some people on deck who were caught in the crossfire but no-one is blaming them, they are a victim of circumstance and aggressive Israeli shooting, there is some blame going to the people who acted to cause the shooting but they probably think everyones death is martyrdom so it's a good thing they helped them to an unwilling death.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439789]Racism is only racism if it isn't justified or related to the issue, for example saying "All blacks can't play poker" since being black obviously has nothing to do with not being able to play poker.
However, there is a legitimate concern in allowing the Arabs into the IDF, and if you can't see that, I don't think I can explain it.[/QUOTE]
Wow...
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22439789]Racism is only racism if it isn't justified or related to the issue, for example saying "All blacks can't play poker" since being black obviously has nothing to do with not being able to play poker.
However, there is a legitimate concern in allowing the Arabs into the IDF, and if you can't see that, I don't think I can explain it.[/QUOTE]
But you are neglecting them based on their ethnicity?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439962]I never said they didn't expect a confrontation, I never said the victims deserved it, I never said Israel was right (I made a point to say the opposite), where the fuck did I say "You don't know what it's like" and the truth is never at the extremes so don't act like that's possible.[/quote]
You said that these people had probably seen their friends being blown up, and that's why they acted as they did.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439962]
[B]I said that they fired on them first, just using live fire rounds from a helicopter to try and kill them sound a little implausible.[/B] I said the Israeli army fired on them first as that is the most likely scenario now but they certainly aren't moral or have their actions justified. They weren't traumatised, they were aggressive. It's hard to be so professional that you don't have any kind of emotional reaction when you are beaten and have your friends nearly unconscious, but being in a hostile mental state doesn't justify shooting someone in the back of the head 4 times.[/quote]
Look up on that wikipedia article I posted in my last post.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22439962]
[B]As for blaming the victim[/B], if I haven't stressed enough that Israel is to blame for part of it, they still attacked them for fucks sake. [B]You aren't a victim anymore when you start fighting back and especially not when you are doing a good job of it.[/B] There were some people on deck who were caught in the crossfire but no-one is blaming them, they are a victim of circumstance and aggressive Israeli shooting, [B]there is some blame going to the people who acted to cause the shooting but they probably think everyones death is martyrdom so it's a good thing they helped them to an unwilling death.[/B][/QUOTE]
You did it again.
Also, holy shit at your last sentence, you are literally buying into the "There were terrorists on that ship"-narrative.
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22440044]But you are neglecting them based on their ethnicity?[/QUOTE]
It's not really neglecting them, no one is depriving them of a basic human right or something like that.
They still have the opportunity to go to university and get their degrees 2-3 years earlier than Jewish Israelis, which is a lot.
Hey, seems like there might be coming some good news now. :unsmith:
It's mostly a civilian crossing, but it's a start.
[url]http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=egypt-gaza-blockade-a-failure-border-stays-open-2010-06-07[/url]
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22440074]You said that these people had probably seen their friends being blown up, and that's why they acted as they did.[/quote]
That makes them cautious and on most occasions, incredibly neglectant of thier needs. It's not a mindset and more than anything it's not something that is going to stop a Navy seal from doing his job. They "acted as they did" by being cruel to the civilians once they were on board, not because they were taking revenge by shooting them.
[quote]Look up on that wikipedia article I posted in my last post.[/quote]
Oh right, nevermind the fact that shooting to kill from a helicopter while everyone else is firing non-lethal is stupid and unlikely, that no-one was killed or even shot before they boarded, the people on board had no idea if they were firing warning shots or trying to kill them, none of that matters because I'm just trying to justify something I can't believe.
What do you think happened? They thought "Fuck this non-lethal stuff, I'm gonna shoot some people because it's fun" while they were just about to drop in there? I'm not the one delusional about it, you are trying to justify people being shot by saying the ones who did it were unthinking, bloodthirstry and wanted to kill as many of them as possible. It just doesn't happen that way.
[quote]You did it again.
Also, holy shit at your last sentence, you are literally buying into the "There were terrorists on that ship"-narrative.[/QUOTE]
"Oh my, a few people were peaceful. That means there couldn't have been anyone agressive on there." There were two kinds of people on there, the normal people comprising about 98% of them, and the idiots who wanted to get in a fight. The ones who actively attacked them with metal poles, are on record saying martyrdom is good and were chanting death to the jews fall in the second category I think. They are not victims, they are fighters. Even if they were victims and non-aggresive they lost a lot of their credability when they attacked them. There were some extremists (or just some very angry people if you don't want to be mean) on board and dismissing it as IDF propaganda is just as stupid as what you think I am.
BurnEmDown isn't trolling, he's an Israeli citizen. don't you think his country would throw out as much propaganda as possible to at least keep their own citizens on their side?
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22440246]Hey, seems like there might be coming some good news now. :unsmith:
It's mostly a civilian crossing, but it's a start.
[url]http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=egypt-gaza-blockade-a-failure-border-stays-open-2010-06-07[/url][/QUOTE]
Oh yay, now they're going to bring in more weapons and kill more of those evil jews. At least we know who to thank when the rockets start coming again.
Yourselves.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22440423]Oh yay, now they're going to bring in more weapons and kill more of those evil jews. At least we know who to thank when the rockets start coming again.[/QUOTE]
Funny, it's been more of a massacre on the people of Palestine then them nasty Hamas terrorists.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;22440438]Yourselves.[/QUOTE]
The US is looking for "new ways" to address Gaza's humanitarian crisis amid tensions over last week's deadly Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship.Full story: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10256704.stm[/url]
It's funny how everyone is blaming me for being brainwashed, nationalistic, unreasonable, racist, a troll, idiotic, and insane, yet when I call someone a terrorist sympathizer, outside of a real argument even, OH NO!!!! AD HOMINEM!!! CALL THE FLAMING POLICE BECAUSE THIS GUY IS NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT!!!!
If you want to have a real debate with no name-calling I have no problem whatsoever with it, but you should hold up to your end of the bargain as well.
you are justifying nationalism and the obviously racist foundation on which Israel sits.
therefore you are a nationalist and a racist.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22440401]
Oh right, nevermind the fact that shooting to kill from a helicopter while everyone else is firing non-lethal is stupid and unlikely, that no-one was killed or even shot before they boarded, the people on board had no idea if they were firing warning shots or trying to kill them, none of that matters because I'm just trying to justify something I can't believe.
What do you think happened? They thought "Fuck this non-lethal stuff, I'm gonna shoot some people because it's fun" while they were just about to drop in there? I'm not the one delusional about it, you are trying to justify people being shot by saying the ones who did it were unthinking, bloodthirstry and wanted to kill as many of them as possible. It just doesn't happen that way.
[/QUOTE]
No, I just think they didn't give a rats ass about the casualties, not that they were shooting them for fun. Something I see as highly unprofessional, but the IDF has done it in the past so I don't find it all that surprising.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22440401]
"Oh my, a few people were peaceful. That means there couldn't have been anyone agressive on there." There were two kinds of people on there, the normal people comprising about 98% of them, and the idiots who wanted to get in a fight. The ones who actively attacked them with metal poles, are on record saying martyrdom is good and were chanting death to the jews fall in the second category I think. They are not victims, they are fighters. Even if they were victims and non-aggresive they lost a lot of their credability when they attacked them. There were some extremists (or just some very angry people if you don't want to be mean) on board and dismissing it as IDF propaganda is just as stupid as what you think I am.[/QUOTE]
You are still blaming the victims by making claims that they were "fighters" and "extremists". I mean, what the fuck? The IDF boarded a crowded vessel in international waters in the middle of the night using rubber bullets and shock grenades, and you are saying that the people only fought back because there were extremists (Or "very angry people", there's a small difference between the two) that wanted to incite a fight for martyrdom.
It's insane how many people are buying into that narrative, especially after the IDF was found forging audio evidence. Remember, they are still withholding footage, why do you think they are doing this?
Regarding the last sentence, I still haven't said you are stupid, I am however highly sceptical to anything IDF says at this point, considering all the shit they've already pulled and been called out on.
[QUOTE=Enishi;22440592]you are justifying nationalism and the obviously racist foundation on which Israel sits.
therefore you are a nationalist and a racist.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2851/opinion.jpg[/IMG]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Image macro" - TH89))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22440727][IMG]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2851/opinion.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Your counter-argument is very powerful. I could feel how my pants got wetter as that image loaded :colbert:
[QUOTE=Enishi;22440592] obviously racist foundation on which Israel sits.
[/QUOTE]
You. Are. Terrorist. Sympathizer.
[QUOTE=gudman;22441041]You. Are. Dumb. Terrorist. Simpathyzer.[/QUOTE]
This is turning into a flamewar. What are you basing these opinions on if I may ask?
Lolling at all the antisemitic people in this thread accusing Israel without clear reason.
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22441058]This is turning into a flamewar. What are you basing these opinions on if I may ask?[/QUOTE]
If you condemn israels actions, you qualify for the anti-semetic terrorist sympathizer category.
[QUOTE=IStanI;22441085]If you condemn israels actions, you qualify for the anti-semetic terrorist sympathizer category.[/QUOTE]
Seems to be that way.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22441076]Lolling at all the antisemitic people in this thread accusing Israel without clear reason.[/QUOTE]
I think it's more about people getting fed up on Israel acting like a nation of importance doing whatever they feel like.
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;22441339]I think it's more about people getting fed up on Israel acting like a nation of importance doing whatever they feel like.[/QUOTE]
You''re sarcasm detector needs new batteries bro.
Just look at my avatar.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22441379]You''re sarcasm detector needs new batteries bro.
Just look at my avatar.[/QUOTE]
*grabs a fresh set of batteries*
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