• ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
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[QUOTE=hehe;22384511]Yea, my bad, i didnt read the reuters articles correctly. regardless boarding a vessel in international waters is illegal because it was more than 35 n.miles out from Gaza, which is classified as "high seas" or international waters.[/QUOTE] According to the San Remo maritine laws, it is legal to board a vessel that you know is planing on running your blockade. I wonder how many times I have said this already (not only to you of course).
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;22384033]ITT: Commandos looking for illegal contraband such as weapons and preventing them from entering your nation's borders is consider piracy. The United States Coast Guard is a pirate organization. Alert the press.[/QUOTE] Boarding them? Questionable. Shooting them in the face multiple times? Inexcusable by any standards. When US cops are threatened by clubs, they don't shoot. They use tasers and non-lethal force.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22384457]I really don't believe this happened. You're forgetting about the mob that the soldiers had to deal with, they wouldn't waste time by walking up to someone who was already shot and finishing off, firing several bullets. My assumption is that he hit the commando, and the commando aimed his gun at him and fired off several shots one after the other before the guy even dropped, though I am quite unsure myself.[/QUOTE] You just try and shoot someone in the head several times before they fall down. He would be down after the first shot. And this corroborates with the eye witness saying they were shooting people in the back. [editline]04:10AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22384505]And I'm guessing we won't see any video evidence either.[/QUOTE] Oh, well I guess we'll just have to exercise a neuron of brain power here.
Well what if they are threatened by a mob wielding clubs, who bit the shit out of them even if they dropped, their guns are taken from them and used against them, they get stabbed by knifes, and beating by metal poles and folding chairs? I don't know about you but I would draw my godamn gun.
[QUOTE=Nyaos;22384548]Boarding them? Questionable. Shooting them in the face multiple times? Inexcusable by any standards. When US cops are threatened by clubs, they don't shoot. They use tasers and non-lethal force.[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238584287_seinfeld_had_enough.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22384570]Well what if they are threatened by a mob wielding clubs, who bit the shit out of them even if they dropped, their guns are taken from them and used against them, they get stabbed by knifes, and beating by metal poles and folding chairs? I don't know about you but I would draw my godamn gun.[/QUOTE] Then obviously there was a tactical failure. What kind of military mission is a success when 9 peace activists are dead? You can draw your gun, cops do it all the time. But don't you fucking go commando and start unloading rounds. The whole thing is bullshit simply because the blockade is inhumane and unethical in the first place. Again, the US is the only nation in the world to defend Israel. Some change huh Obama?
It's possible to fire 5 shots from a semi-automatic handgun faster than the body would fall.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22384541]According to the San Remo maritine laws, it is legal to board a vessel that you know is planing on running your blockade. I wonder how many times I have said this already (not only to you of course).[/QUOTE] Yea well you got me there. Does Israel see Palestine as a independent country howevever?
A military mission that assumes the "enemy" are a bunch of "humanitarian activists" who are "peaceful". This was not the case, but it sure got the commandos by surprise. Nyaos, the blockade is still legal.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;22384398]...Are you kidding? These are the commandos speaking, not the government. And if you even bothered to watch the footage, or even learned the definition of "blockade," you would know that searching the ship was routine, and that the Israeli commandos were very clearly attacked first. Of course, Facepunch is largely too open minded to consider any of that.[/QUOTE] That was more directed to them calling the activists mercenaries. Perhaps if you hadn't jumped to conclusions as soon as you saw what I said, you would have known that.
[QUOTE=hehe;22384611]Yea well you got me there. Does Israel see Palestine as a independent country howevever?[/QUOTE] Palestine no, Gaza yes. Well actually I'm not sure about Gaza because of the Hamas being in power, but Israel surely doesn't this Gaza is a part of Israel (due to the 2005 withdrawal).
[QUOTE=thisispain;22383460]you can't simply declare bandwagon as some ace in an argument stay out of this unless you have something constructive to say besides "BANDWAGON".[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thisispain]i'm done arguing this, the consequences of this won't stop either the israeli's or palastinians from killing each other [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thisispain]this is what killing people has been reduced to, shitty parodies this isn't funny, it's just depressing [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thisispain]there's nothing taboo about death, and it isn't facepunch, it is israel and hamas letting people die for politics but fp is more interested in politics than it will ever be in human life[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I can't help but notice: you called him out for calling bandwagon and not being constructive and you were done arguing but uh, where did you argue anything but calling yourself a minority and generalizing that all of FP parodies death and has no value for human life. So uh, you can't just "declare we all don't care about human life as some ace in an argument. Stay out of this unless you have something constructive to say." Apart from that, I have to say I first saw this and was in the middle. Read the reports of unprovoked firing and I leant towards an anti-Israeli viewpoint, but then I saw the video and have heard now of injuries of Israelis? This should have been done a while ago, and while I admit now i'm stuck at a very pro-Israel viewpoint right now as to what they did - (see: enforcing their laws?) it seems to me like they're still throwing propaganda on to the fire to ease it up a bit. I'm anxious to see what'll happen with the next ship.
Even though the blockade is legal by Israel's terms, what they're doing it for is unethical. Legality means nothing. Our war in Iraq is legal because our congress said so. Does that mean we should be there?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;22384198]He was raised in Turkey for 90% of his life. I doubt he even would of remembered his life in America.[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter, hes still dead.
Double post?
[QUOTE=Nyaos;22384597]Then obviously there was a tactical failure. What kind of military mission is a success when 9 peace activists are dead? You can draw your gun, cops do it all the time. But don't you fucking go commando and start unloading rounds. The whole thing is bullshit simply because the blockade is inhumane and unethical in the first place. Again, the US is the only nation in the world to defend Israel. Some change huh Obama?[/QUOTE] Peace activists, the last time I checked, don't randomly attack soldiers on sight.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;22384768]Peace activists, the last time I checked, don't randomly attack soldiers on sight.[/QUOTE] Last time I checked, humans naturally defend themselves when confronted with force. It's a fucking ship, where are they going to run?
Yes, which is why the commandos had to use lethal weapons to protect themselves against the mod of "peace" activists. Apparently you didn't watch this video yet: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz5OciG0ewA[/media]
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;22384768]Peace activists, the last time I checked, don't randomly attack soldiers on sight.[/QUOTE] It wasn't really random, there were probably a few warning shots or tear gas fired onto the ship but the point is still that peaceful protests avoid violence, even when provoked. [QUOTE=Nyaos;22384696]Even though the blockade is legal by Israel's terms, what they're doing it for is unethical. Legality means nothing. Our war in Iraq is legal because our congress said so. Does that mean we should be there?[/QUOTE] Ethical vs Legal, it's a much larger issue and I hope we don't have to go into it too much. It may be unethical to have a war in Iraq but that's no reason to consider it comepletely invalid. It's legal so you can't say it's illegal, and while it may be unethical, that's only a motivation to stop and not a threat.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22384814]Yes, which is why the commandos had to use lethal weapons to protect themselves against the mod of "peace" activists.[/QUOTE] Don't you get it? If you had to use weapons and kill activists, maybe you shouldn't have boarded in the first place? Israeli Commandos aren't washouts, they know what they're doing and they knew what would happen.
[QUOTE=Nyaos;22384869]Don't you get it? If you had to use weapons and kill activists, maybe you shouldn't have boarded in the first place? Israeli Commandos aren't washouts, they know what they're doing and they knew what would happen.[/QUOTE] They also didn't know the "peaceful" activists would be so violent. They rappelled down with fucking pepperball guns.
[QUOTE=Vinze;22383605]That guy who killed six people seem kinda creepy to me, don't they learn how to shoot people so they only get injured/disabled instead of killed?[/QUOTE] actually... the mortality rate for a gunshot to the leg, foot, arm, are still extremely high.
[QUOTE=ScoutKing;22384895]actually... the mortality rate for a gunshot to the leg, foot, arm, are still extremely high.[/QUOTE] He's a doctor, trust this guy, he knows what he's talking about.
[QUOTE=Nyaos;22384795]Last time I checked, humans naturally defend themselves when confronted with force. It's a fucking ship, where are they going to run?[/QUOTE] Tell that to Ghandi. There are two types of protest against force, passive and aggresive. A passive protest will remain calm and will not fight back regardless of provocation. No violent action or anything that could be seen as violent, just passive show of support. An aggresive protest involves a far more active aproach, the kind of protest that involves molotovs and is more like a riot. When you have a violent protest and call for blood, some of it is going to be your own, casualties on your side are inevitable when are are actively attacking the other side. These activists are trying to make it out to be a passive protest and saying they were provoked, but it's just not true. I'm ok with an aggresive protest but the deaths are just as much their own fault as Israels.
Okay, let's clarify this up. You guys are saying that 9 people dead is okay because they shouldn't have fought back?
What you call "fighting back" I call "starting a fight against an armed man", which is just plain stupid.
So look, right now we're in a battle of philosophy, and neither side will prevail. So what we will do is look at what's actually happened. Israel attacked a ship that was carrying activists - Their reputation was completely diminished with the outside world. Turkey in particular has gained bargaining power in the middle east from their dismissal of Israeli relations. So, how was this a good decision?
Israel has legally boarded the ship, it wasn't much of an "attack". Then, the activists attacked the commandos, almost killing them. The commandos had a chance to use their guns too at several points, but didn't use it until they were authorized. They killed 9 people as their only way of self defense, if they wouldn't have done that, they would have died themselves. And we are not talking about wether it was a good decision or not, we are talking about legality.
[QUOTE=Nyaos;22384925]Okay, let's clarify this up. You guys are saying that 9 people dead is okay because they shouldn't have fought back?[/QUOTE] Strawman, arguing against something that is easier than the actual argument. It's not ok, death rarely is. The objection I have is people giving the impression that Israel came in and started shooting everyone and attacking was a natural response for a peaceful protest. Peaceful protests do not wait for the first shot to be fired because they will NEVER fire back. I don't care if it was a natural human response or not (but hide or surrender would be just as good), it is a natural human response to defend yourself as the soldiers did so you can justify that just as easily. It is not an atrocity, it is a tragedy. Israel may be partially responsible but their actions are somewhat justified and the protesters are also partially to blame for their deaths.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22385000]Strawman, arguing against something that is easier than the actual argument. [/QUOTE] I love it when someone takes a critical reasoning class in college and starts calling everything a strawman or ad hominen. You can be correct, I'm just saying it gets old. You do have good points. The protestors fucked up as well, they really shouldn't have fought back. [editline]11:52PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22384999]Israel has legally boarded the ship, it wasn't much of an "attack". Then, the activists attacked the commandos, almost killing them. The commandos had a chance to use their guns too at several points, but didn't use it until they were authorized. They killed 9 people as their only way of self defense, if they wouldn't have done that, they would have died themselves. And we are not talking about wether it was a good decision or not, we are talking about legality.[/QUOTE] It was legal, since the ship had the intent to break the blockade. I'm arguing the ethics behind the decision, and why they shouldn't have done it.
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