ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
1,592 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22472929]That's exactly what I'm saying. The amount of deaths doesn't have much to do with it. It's a part in the equation, of course, but it doesn't matter as much as who is right, who tried defending himself, who used unnecessary force, and so on.
Regardless, Mr. Scorpio insists that there is mass starvation in Gaza, and that the people there are at constant risk of dying. I think that if this was the case, three years of the blockade would have changed the death rate of the population for the worst, not for the better (from 3.8 to 3.36 deaths per 1000 in 4 years).[/QUOTE]
You just agreed with me, then used the death rate to deny that people are starving in Gaza. Perhaps you're not aware that "starving" and "starving to death" are not the same thing. Starvation is a severe lack of nutrients from food, and there simply isn't enough food to meet basic nutritional needs for everyone in Gaza. The food simply isn't there. It's hardly up for debate.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22475555]Bet if I was waving an Israeli flag, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Regardless of the insulting fluff, I still have valid points[/QUOTE]
We wouldn't be having this conversation if I hadn't already overlooked your permabanned alt account and long history of causing trouble. Again. Don't push it.
[QUOTE=johnlukeg;22475579]You just agreed with me, then used the death rate to deny that people are starving in Gaza. Perhaps you're not aware that "starving" and "starving to death" are not the same thing. Starvation is a severe lack of nutrients from food, and there simply isn't enough food to meet basic nutritional needs for everyone in Gaza. The food simply isn't there. It's hardly up for debate.[/QUOTE]
I over looked that...
[QUOTE=Warhol;22474723]Uh, a lot of third-world countries have massive population lol[/QUOTE]
They have a massive death toll too, not as much as Gaza's.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22474723]oh jesus, he's seriously fucking denying the Gazan's are oppressed.[/quote]
I'm not, but you are saying that there is mass starvation and water shortages. If this was true, the Gazan population would have severely dropped over the last few years. It hasn't, and not because of all the births.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22474723]There IS a considerable amount of deaths there, just because fertility is high, doesn't mean people don't die. This is not a hard fucking concept.[/quote]
Not as much as there would be had there really been mass starvation and water shortages.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22474723]Really? so babies don't eat?
lol, in what fantasy world?[/quote]
Well I'm guessing that if babies are born they are born in hospitals where there's enough food, but I guess it could be food-related deaths as well. It depends on if they count infant deaths as all deaths of infants or only on-birth deaths or related to birth problems.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Gaza_Strip_aid[/url]
Yes, this aid, and it still continues to arrive.
[quote]dude, you don't need statistics to realise the terrible fucking conditions of Gaza.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but I do need them to see the "mass starvation and water shortages" you described.
ISTANBUL—Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said Tuesday his country would raise the issue of an investigation into the Israeli boarding of an aid ship off Gaza at the United Nations, calling the Israeli action "a crude violation of international law."
Speaking at security summit of Eurasian leaders in Istanbul, Mr. Putin also said that U.N. Security Council sanctions against Iran over its nuclear-fuel program were "practically agreed upon."
Turkey was seeking to have leaders at the summit condemn Israel over the raid in a joint statement Tuesday, but with Israel attending in the form of its ambassador to Ankara and wielding a veto, that appeared unlikely.
Still, support for Turkey's position was evident among leaders who included President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran and Mahmud Abbas, leader of the Palestinian Authority and Syria's Bashar al-Assad. Mr. Putin also supported Turkey's view of the clash, saying that the fact it occurred in international waters was cause for concern and calling for an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza.
"The loss of peaceful civilians has caused a new exacerbation of the situation [in the Middle East]," Mr. Putin said. "We are deeply worried by such a crude violation of the universally recognized norms of international law."
Turkey wants an independent international investigation of the events, while Israel supported by the U.S.—has said it will conduct the investigation itself, due to concern that any international probe would be biased against Israel. Israel appears to remain open to some form of international participation in the investigation.
Nine people died on board the Turkish owned Mavi Maramara last week, when Israeli commandoes boarded the ship opening fire with live ammunition in the brawl that followed.
[B]Mr. Putin also confirmed that the planned Blue Stream II natural-gas line that would run across the Black Sea from Russia to Turkey will no longer have an extension to Israel as planned—a changed announced by Turkey last week in response to the Mavi Marmara deaths. However, Mr. Putin said this was due to commercial rather than political causes, noting that Israel is developing its own offshore natural-gas fields that are expected to have sufficient gas to export.[/B]
Mr. Putin didn't back Turkey's position on Iran. Turkey and Brazil negotiated a deal last month under which Iran would transfer part of its stockpile of low enriched uranium to Turkey, which would hold it while another country made bars of medium enriched uranium for an Iranian medical reactor. In the meantime, Turkey says, the U.N. Security Council, of which Turkey and Brazil are currently members, should hold off imposing fresh economic sanctions on Iran.
Mr. Ahmadinejad said at Tuesday's summit that the Turkish deal was a one-off. Iran has said repeatedly that the deal will be off the table if the U.N. imposes fresh sanctions against Tehran. "We say that this opportunity will not be repeated," he said.
The Turkish deal was similar to one endorsed by the U.S. and other Security Council members last October, aimed at setting back any Iranian effort to enrich fuel to weapons grade. But the U.S., France, the U.K., Germany and Russia say that agreement is no longer sufficient, because Iran has since made more low-enriched uranium and has said it would use it to make medium-grade fuel of its own.
Western countries believe Iran is developing enrichment technology with a view to building weapons, a charge Iran denies. The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog in Vienna, on Monday reiterated that while it has no proof Iran is building weapons, Tehran hasn't yet cooperated sufficiently to allow the agency to certify its program as peaceful. He described Iran as a "special case."
Mr. Putin said Tuesday that new U.N. sanctions shouldn't punish ordinary Iranians or prevent Iran from developing a civilian nuclear power program. He said Iran's first nuclear power plant, a Russian-built reactor at Bushehr, should go live in August. Russia signed a contract to build the Bushehr plant in 1995, but has been delaying completion, citing technical reasons.
"They must be careful not to side with enemies of the Iranian nation," said Mr. Ahmadinejad of Russia. "They should make a choice."
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703302604575294411023000550.html?mod=fox_australian[/url]
[QUOTE=CjienX;22475414]It's pretty blatant that you're banning selectively otherwise BurnEmDown would be banned for trolling among other people[/QUOTE]
How am I trolling? If anyone's trolling, it's you. I've provided enough evidence to prove that the blockade is legal, yet you still claim otherwise.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475777][QUOTE=CjienX;22475414]It's pretty blatant that you're banning selectively otherwise BurnEmDown would be banned for trolling among other people[/QUOTE]
How am I trolling? If anyone's trolling, it's you. I've provided enough evidence to prove that the blockade is legal, yet you still claim otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Contraband list
[QUOTE=johnlukeg;22475579]You just agreed with me, then used the death rate to deny that people are starving in Gaza. Perhaps you're not aware that "starving" and "starving to death" are not the same thing. Starvation is a severe lack of nutrients from food, and there simply isn't enough food to meet basic nutritional needs for everyone in Gaza. The food simply isn't there. It's hardly up for debate.[/QUOTE]
Well "mass starvation" sounds more lethal to me than "starvation".
where is it
[QUOTE=Lambeth;22475801]Contraband list[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.vilp.de/Enpdf/e025.pdf[/url]
"5.2.2 Seizure and condemnation
Cargo constituting contraband and a ship carrying such cargo may be seized by a belligerent, brought
before a prize court and condemned. Confiscation without a prize court decision is prohibited.
5.2.3 Contraband
Contraband are goods ultimately destined to the enemy of a belligerent which are designed for the use of
war fighting and other goods useful for the war effort of the enemy."
Doesn't mention a contraband list needs to be published.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475803]Well "mass starvation" sounds more lethal to me than "starvation".[/QUOTE]
The "mass" in "mass starvation" is how many are affected by it, not how severe it is.
[QUOTE=johnlukeg;22475842]The "mass" in "mass starvation" is how many are affected by it, not how severe it is.[/QUOTE]
I'm gonna guess that when 100000 people starve there will be more casualties than when 1000 people starve.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475908]I'm gonna guess that when 100000 people starve there will be more casualties than when 1000 people starve.[/QUOTE]
Well you'd be guessing wrong, since there's no indication of the level of starvation in either group.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475777]How am I trolling? If anyone's trolling, it's you. I've provided enough evidence to prove that the blockade is legal, yet you still claim otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Where? where did you even fucking REMOTELY post evidence?
[editline]01:07AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475908]I'm gonna guess that when 100000 people starve there will be more casualties than when 1000 people starve.[/QUOTE]
uh... what?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475823][url]http://www.vilp.de/Enpdf/e025.pdf[/url]
"5.2.2 Seizure and condemnation
Cargo constituting contraband and a ship carrying such cargo may be seized by a belligerent, brought
before a prize court and condemned. Confiscation without a prize court decision is prohibited.
5.2.3 Contraband
Contraband are goods ultimately destined to the enemy of a belligerent which are designed for the use of
war fighting and other goods useful for the war effort of the enemy."
Doesn't mention a contraband list needs to be published.[/QUOTE]
That definition alone makes the Israeli blockade illegal under that doctrine, seeing as some of the things it classifies as "contraband" are clearly not so by that definition.
Such as, you know, Instant Coffee, Spices, Medical equipment.
Plus, did they do the whole thing with the Prize court when they seized the ship? Granted that authority can be bestowed unto a single person, but they still might've overlooked it.
I still say without a contraband list, that blockade is illegal.
[quote=kagrenak;22476046]that definition alone makes the israeli blockade illegal under that doctrine, seeing as some of the things it classifies as "contraband" are clearly not so by that definition.
Such as, you know, instant coffee, spices, medical equipment.[/quote]
they had sticks!
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;22476046]That definition alone makes the Israeli blockade illegal under that doctrine, seeing as some of the things it classifies as "contraband" are clearly not so by that definition.
Such as, you know, Instant Coffee, Spices, Medical equipment.[/QUOTE]
Well since pretty much only the Hamas will get the instant coffee and spices and other luxuries, why should Israel let them enjoy it?
Medical equipment is allowed, actually.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22476085]Well since pretty much only the Hamas will get the instant coffee and spices and other luxuries, why should Israel let them enjoy it?
Medical equipment is allowed, actually.[/QUOTE]
Because it isn't "...designed for the use of war fighting and other goods useful for the war effort of the enemy."
What about construction materials for things like new schools? Why not empty cans? Why not margarine? Are all these "...designed for the use of war fighting and other goods useful for the war effort of the enemy."?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475761]They have a massive death toll too, not as much as Gaza's.[/quote]
it's principle, not a contest
[quote]I'm not, but you are saying that there is mass starvation and water shortages. If this was true, the Gazan population would have severely dropped over the last few years. It hasn't, and not because of all the births.[/quote]
Uh... It DOES, actually. when 2 people die and 2 people are born, it effects population... this is not really hard to understand.
[quote]Not as much as there would be had there really been mass starvation and water shortages.[/quote]
what else are you going to deny?
[quote]Well I'm guessing that if babies are born they are born in hospitals where there's enough food, but I guess it could be food-related deaths as well. It depends on if they count infant deaths as all deaths of infants or only on-birth deaths or related to birth problems.[/quote]
they all factor in, bro
[quote][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Gaza_Strip_aid[/url]
Yes, this aid, and it still continues to arrive.[/quote]
It's 2010, burnemdown
do you have like an advertisement contract with wikipedia? I have not seen a fucking person quote wikipedia more times then you.
[quote]Maybe, but I do need them to see the "mass starvation and water shortages" you described.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-is-a-jail-nobody-is-allowed-to-leave-we-are-all-starving-now-415101.html[/url]
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7806209/Dispatch-Just-how-hungry-is-Gaza.html[/url]
oh but wait a second, burnemdown likes this better:
[url]http://www.viciousbabushka.com/2010/06/more-suffering-and-starvation-in-gaza-concentration-camp.html[/url]
A sugar coated image of the situation
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475908]I'm gonna guess that when 100000 people starve there will be more casualties than when 1000 people starve.[/QUOTE]
You can be starving and just barely hanging on, this is part of the reason why their life expectancy is similar to various third-world nations.
Burnemdown has obviously never experienced poverty
Poverty is the most brutal thing you can imagine.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;22477024]Poverty is the most brutal thing you can imagine.[/QUOTE]
It really is. I've been to the Dominican Republic on vacation and we stayed in the bad parts with my step dads mother and in the more touristy areas. It was probably one of the saddest things I've seen next to when we had to put my dog down.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22475908]I'm gonna guess that when 100000 people starve there will be more casualties than when 1000 people starve.[/QUOTE]
The purpose of blockade is not to wipe out 1.5 million people, but to put them on a super strict diet which hardly constitutes a healthy meal. If Palestinians were dying en masse due to starvation, Israel would have a serious crime on its hands. You know they're smarter than this.
The purpose of the blockade is to keep them alive but frustrated so that they become fed up with the situation and oust Hamas. They keep them alive by sending in food that is less than a quarter of what is actually needed.
Read this first hand account of poor families suffering from the blockade:
"We owe the cooking-gas man money, we had to reduce the amount of vegetables we buy, and things like meat and chicken are out of the question," says Amal Sharif, a resident of Gaza's Shati Refugee Camp and mother of 10 whose hospitalized husband is unable to support the family. "We visit supermarkets very rarely. I usually cook beans and rice and other cheap things and try to make them last over a few days."
There are families being forced to live on under nutritional, meagre food for days while owing debts to the cooking-gas man while you sit on your butt in an airconditioned room with a happy meal and soda pop exalting the virtues of the blockade.
You have really skewed mindset. You cannot think critically at all, I'm afraid. You point out increased birthrates as evidence that they're all well and happy and making babies. If it were the Jews who were being starved by the Palestinians, where say PLO allowed only a quarter of food that is needed for the Jews to survive, how would you feel? How about if PLO created a blockade to restrict the supplies going in? Reminds you of something something in 1940's?
You're absolutely going out on a limb trying to support Israel's inhumane policies. Step back for a second and [i]think critically[/i]. The blockade is wrong. The occupation is wrong. Its really fun to play statistics, but there are people suffering out there, not numbers. How would you feel if your kids were being forced to eat the same paltry bird food every day by the PLO?
[editline]10:49PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;22477024]Poverty is the most brutal thing you can imagine.[/QUOTE]
QFT. Absolutely true. People defending the merits of the blockade and downplaying starvation have absolutely no clue on what poverty entails.
Oh, I get it now. In 2003, Gaza and the West Bank had some of the fattest people on earth. Israel is just helping them by putting them on a diet. It all makes sense now.
[img]http://www.cubeupload.com/files/8f18001275828031320.jpg[/img]
Please don't rage about how it's inacurate or how it's not a reason to blockade them, I don't see it as anything but a joke.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22479723]Oh, I get it now. In 2003, Gaza and the West Bank had some of the fattest people on earth. Israel is just helping them by putting them on a diet. It all makes sense now.
[img]http://www.cubeupload.com/files/8f18001275828031320.jpg[img]
Please don't rage about how it's inacurate or how it's not a reason to blockade them, I don't see it as anything but a joke.[/QUOTE]
Its interesting. Mongolia is one of the poorest nations on earth, yet they're in top 20.
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22479859]Its interesting. Mongolia is one of the poorest nations on earth, yet they're in top 20.[/QUOTE]
It uses the body mass index which is just weight divided by height, not accurate at all. Plus fatty food is cheaper than healthy food so as long as you have enough to eat, you are probably going to be fat.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;22479967]It uses the body mass index which is just weight divided by height, not accurate at all. Plus fatty food is cheaper than healthy food so as long as you have enough to eat, you are probably going to be fat.[/QUOTE]
BMI is such fucking bullshit
[QUOTE=Lambeth;22477024]Poverty is the most brutal thing you can imagine.[/QUOTE]
Too bad BurnEmDown lacks the ability to put himself in other peoples shoes, so no sympathy from him.
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