• ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
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[QUOTE=Warhol;22494211] You fucking people REFUSE to fucking look to see WHY Hamas is firing rockets so instead of me fucking sitting here telling you and you not listening, I shall fucking show you [img]http://hojasalviento.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/gaza_wall.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm[/url][/QUOTE] Me: The wall is there in order to stop the suicide bombings and make weapons smuggling a lot harder. You: But can't you see Gaza is being blocked by a wall? Me: As I said, it's there in order to prevent suicide bombings. They have decreased dramatically since it was built. You: Dude. You're not listening. Gaza is being blocked by a huge wall. Me: I know, it's there in order to... You: BIG FUCKING WALL WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND Me: :psyduck:
[QUOTE=gudman;22494434]Did you tried to understand what I said? Jews lived in Palestine for centuries.[/quote] What the fuck does that have to do with Israel? [quote]They DID NOT. Jews did not oppress them. Not before, not even now. Why wall? Because of constant terrorism. Supplies was cut when Hamas took the leadership over the Palestine.[/quote] Ok so the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, the constant taking of land, settlers murdering other settlers, the IDF slaughtering Palestinians... is not opression? Then what IS oppression lol, you don't understand radicalism do you? it comes about in radical conditions. [quote]Can't get your idea here.[/quote] you're saying people send them aid... as if it means something. [quote]I can tell you WHY. BECAUSE it makes PROFIT for them. They refuse to accept the Israely's right to exist, they want to destroy it and send all the Jews out.[/quote] they don't have a right to exist. They stole land after a tragic incident. but the fucking jews there do not deserve to kill the people and take the land. what's so fucking difficult to understand about this. [quote]Oh GOD A WALL![/QUOTE] you don't know what that wall is, do you? lol you came in arguing blind [editline]10:09PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Glorbo;22494533]Me: The wall is there in order to stop the suicide bombings and make weapons smuggling a lot harder. You: But can't you see Gaza is being blocked by a wall? Me: As I said, it's there in order to prevent suicide bombings. They have decreased dramatically since it was built. You: Dude. You're not listening. Gaza is being blocked by a huge wall. Me: I know, it's there in order to... You: BIG FUCKING WALL WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND Me: :psyduck:[/QUOTE] Three fucking times I've asked for this, where is your source it went down? oh no, you made a biased transcript, you SURE SHOWED ME lol, you fucking people will defend anything [editline]10:09PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494466] I don't think Warhol/Scorpio/whatever alt he decides to post in was ever in a "cool head" state of mind.[/QUOTE] i'm not scorpio you tool
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22494503]He's not the only one. He's a symptom of the problem, not the cause. There are [i]millions and millions[/i] of people like BurnEmDown who are fed on lies and misinformation and misdirected patriotism. Ive seen tons of people justifying Operation Cast Lead. Tons more justifying Blockade. Even more justifying the Apartheid Wall and occupation of Palestinians. Do we lose our top each time they show up? Nah. Lets use calm reasoning and sound logic to show why we think Israel is in the wrong.[/QUOTE] You're not the only one. You're a symptom of the problem, not the cause. There are [I]millions and millions[/I] of people like you who are fed on lies and misinformation and misdirected propaganda. I've seen tons of people justifying the Hamas' rocket attacks. Tons more justifying their suicide bombings. Even more saying Israel doesn't have the right to exist and that the Palestinians should drive them out to the sea. Do I lose my top each time they show up? Nah. I use calm reasoning and sound logic to show why I think Israel is in the right.
lol, sorry, when I deal with people like you who defend fucking genocide, it kind of pisses me off
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494466]First of all, you mean IF. Now, the UN has decided that Israel should exist, but the Arabs rejected this and declared war on Israel, so I think Israel might declare war on the Gypsies if the UN decides it really belongs to them. I mean to you this seems like a reasonable thing to do, no?[/QUOTE] It does seem reasonable, but slight problem here: Gypsies don't have a state. You cant declare "War on Gypsies" unless you want manhunt and extermination program. Secondly, are you suggesting that Arab rejection of Israeli state is reasonable? I see a clear analogy: Arabs violently rejecting Israeli state, in the same way in our hypothetical situation Israeli state violently rejecting Gypsy claims.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494603]You're not the only one. You're a symptom of the problem, not the cause. There are [I]millions and millions[/I] of people like you who are fed on lies and misinformation and misdirected propaganda. I've seen tons of people justifying the Hamas' rocket attacks. Tons more justifying their suicide bombings. Even more saying Israel doesn't have the right to exist and that the Palestinians should drive them out to the sea. Do I lose my top each time they show up? Nah. I use calm reasoning and sound logic to show why I think Israel is in the right.[/QUOTE] what's hillarious is he actually cited actual events, you just said this: "Palestinians should drive them out to the sea." and it's kind of hard to drive people out into the sea when you can't even get past their apartheid wall. lol, you're running on empty
[QUOTE=Warhol;22494542]they don't have a right to exist. They stole land after a tragic incident. but the fucking jews there do not deserve to kill the people and take the land. what's so fucking difficult to understand about this. [/QUOTE] 1. How can someone not have a right to exist? 2. They didn't go into Israel in 1948, kill the population and take the land. The land was owned by the british, and the UN ruled for a jewish state-They received confirmation and got it fair and square. [editline]09:14PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Warhol;22494542] oh no, you made a biased transcript, you SURE SHOWED ME lol, you fucking people will defend anything [/QUOTE] Lets see, you 1. Didn't actually prove i'm wrong 2. Blamed me for being "biased" (easy way out) 3. Are being a fucking idiot
[QUOTE=BigDumbBear;22494623]It does seem reasonable, but slight problem here: Gypsies don't have a state. You cant declare "War on Gypsies" unless you want manhunt and extermination program. Secondly, are you suggesting that Arab rejection of Israeli state is reasonable? I see a clear analogy: Arabs violently rejecting Israeli state, in the same way in our hypothetical situation Israeli state violently rejecting Gypsy claims.[/QUOTE] Well, you're right, both these declarations of war are unreasonable. But there's one difference between them: One is real and has happened, and the other is hypothetical. [QUOTE=Warhol;22494626]what's hillarious is he actually cited actual events, you just said this: "Palestinians should drive them out to the sea." and it's kind of hard to drive people out into the sea when you can't even get past their apartheid wall. lol, you're running on empty[/QUOTE] Well you want Israel to remove the wall, which will allow the Hamas to suicide bomb the shit out of us. Also you want us to not respond to terror attacks. This pretty much means that in a few years Israel WILL be driven back to the sea.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22494542]What the fuck does that have to do with Israel? [i]Israeli is a state for hebrews to LIVE IN.[/i] Ok so the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, the constant taking of land, settlers murdering other settlers, the IDF slaughtering Palestinians... is not opression? Then what IS oppression [i]That is all just an answer to actions that Palestine started. You are so strange, you know? What Arabs are doing {like suicide bombings and all) shit, it's okay. But when Israeli answer their actions, OH NO, OPPRESSION![/i] [i]lol, you don't understand radicalism do you? it comes about in radical conditions.[/i] I don't ACCEPT radicalism. If there's no meaning in other human's rights for them, then there's no THEIR rights. you're saying people send them aid... as if it means something. [i]It means supporting terrorism. Not aid. Supplies, building materials, munitions and all.[/i] they don't have a right to exist. They stole land after a tragic incident. but the fucking jews there do not deserve to kill the people and take the land. what's so fucking difficult to understand about this. [i]Americans should get the fuck out of North America then.[/i] you don't know what that wall is, do you? lol you came in arguing blind [i]Let me guess... it's... uh... a WALL?[/i] [/QUOTE] [quote]lol, you fucking people will defend anything[/quote] Said the terrorist defender, uh-huh.
Regarding the wall: [url]http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=11292&Cr=palestin&Cr1[/url]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494728]Well, you're right, both these declarations of war are unreasonable. But there's one difference between them: One is real and has happened, and the other is hypothetical. Well you want Israel to remove the wall, which will allow the Hamas to suicide bomb the shit out of us. Also you want us to not respond to terror attacks. This pretty much means that in a few years Israel WILL be driven back to the sea.[/QUOTE] this is nothing but fluff. No evidence, no source, nothing. Matter of fact it's contrary to fucking reality [img]http://longlivepalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/loss1.jpg[/img] And I'm not even going to bother asking for a source for the suicide bomb thing, this would be the 5th time.
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22494821]Regarding the wall: [url]http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=11292&Cr=palestin&Cr1[/url][/QUOTE] That's regarding the wall in the West Bank, not the one in the Gaza border.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22494836]this is nothing but fluff. No evidence, no source, nothing. Matter of fact it's contrary to fucking reality [img]http://longlivepalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/loss1.jpg[/img] And I'm not even going to bother asking for a source for the suicide bomb thing, this would be the 5th time.[/QUOTE] Well, guess what? Jews actually accepted stage 2 in your map. Arabs didn't. They attacked Israel, Israel fought back and took some land along the way. Also, as you can see from stage 5 they are actually starting to give back land. Also, palestinians didn't own the land in stage one. The british did.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22494836]this is nothing but fluff. No evidence, no source, nothing. Matter of fact it's contrary to fucking reality [img]http://longlivepalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/loss1.jpg[/img] And I'm not even going to bother asking for a source for the suicide bomb thing, this would be the 5th time.[/QUOTE] Oh please, not this again, I think this is like the 10th time someone posted this image. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;21326605] And to the guy above me get a better source: 1st: Any source who claims there were "Palestinians" before 1967 is wrong. 2nd: You can't blame the Jews for "Stealing land" or something for the Stage 2 pic, that's what the UN assigned to each state and it's not like we stole any of it. 3rd: The land we got in the Stage 3 pic was through the war of Israeli independence which was started by the Arab countries, we defeated the Arab invaders and got this land fair and square. And 4th: The Stage 3 pic seems to hint that the Palestinians were living in an independent state or something, the truth is that in the first picture the British controlled all the land, in the second one it's the UN proposal for a two-state solution which the Arabs in Palestine rejected and that's why they don't have an independent state, and in the 3rd picture the west bank and Gaza were actually in control of Jordan and Egypt, respectively.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=gudman;22494810]Said the terrorist defender, uh-huh.[/QUOTE] 1: no shit, really? 2: The Sabra massacres were of refugees, some of which were children. That has nothing to do with the suicide bombings of radical militants. And I'm not even going to ask for a source, you know, that being the 7th time I'd be asking. 3: Radicals are born in radical conditons. If Israel wants to remove radicals, remove the apartheid. 4: So... People shouldn't send them aid? 5: uh, when you have people caged in, conditions kind of go down. I have not in anyway defended Hamas lol, you're just making strawmen arguments.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494879]That's regarding the wall in the West Bank, not the one in the Gaza border.[/QUOTE] Aah, I thought you guys were talking about that one, sorry, my bad reading. Did you watch any more parts of Defamation by the way?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494914]Oh please, not this again, I think this is like the 10th time someone posted this image.[/QUOTE] lol, right and you're a bastion of knowledge? your "analysis" of that image is fucking laughable. so Palestine was a land void of all life before Israel?
Goddamn, this thread really devolved into a shit-slinging war. [QUOTE=Glorbo;22494893]Well, guess what? Jews actually accepted stage 2 in your map. Arabs didn't. They attacked Israel, Israel fought back and took some land along the way. Also, as you can see from stage 5 they are actually starting to give back land.[/QUOTE] Thats kinda silly, of course someone would accept something beneficial to them. But I would imagine anyone would refuse to have their land divvied up because some foreign authority they never heard of told them so. Come on now, I won't go as far as the other guys but you have to admit thats a ridiculous justification you put out there.
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22495026]Aah, I thought you guys were talking about that one, sorry, my bad reading. Did you watch any more parts of Defamation by the way?[/QUOTE] Part 6 right now, with Finklestein. I like it (though seeing his smug face is annoying). [editline]12:27AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Warhol;22495047]lol, right and you're a bastion of knowledge? your "analysis" of that image is fucking laughable. so Palestine was a land void of all life before Israel?[/QUOTE] Close. It was filled with swamps and desert.
No one lived there... ok, burnemdown, when your brain stops caving in on itself, come back.
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;22495049] Thats kinda silly, of course someone would accept something beneficial to them. But I would imagine anyone would refuse to have their land divvied up because some foreign authority they never heard of told them so. Come on now, I won't go as far as the other guys but you have to admit thats a ridiculous justification you put out there.[/QUOTE] Let me quote a post I wrote on another forum on the subject. [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;9264302]Before the UN partition plan there have been about a dozen other partition plans, all in favor of the Arabs, and all except one was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs, and the one I mentioned was rejected by both sides. The Jews were at first promised in the Balfour declaration that they will receive a national home in Palestine and eventually a state of their own, at first the British wanted to give all of the land that is currently under Israel's control or occupation to the Jews, while the Arabs would have received Jordan. It's about a 9:1 ratio of distribution of land. But the Arabs said "no, we want two states, one in Jordan, and another in Palestine, and then we'll see about a state for the Jews", so Britain now had to divide Palestine for the Arabs and the Jews, even though the Arabs already had their own state at Jordan. The British then came up with several offers on how to divide the land or how to create a one-state solution for both peoples, all greatly in favor of the Arabs, but since the Jewish population was always increasing due to immigrates from Europe, they slowly turned less and less in favor of the Arabs. By the 30's the Arabs realized that there's no way they could convince the British to not give the Jews their own state, and the conflict reached its turning point into a violent one, when Arabs attacked Jewish settlements and Jews responded with violence as well. Both sides have committed atrocities, but there is one important difference between the two sides: The Arabs didn't want the Jews to have a state of their own at all, while the Jews accepted the Arabs' right to have their own state in Palestine too. Then after WWII and the events of the holocaust, the world has realized that the Jewish problem is real and physical, and that a Jewish state must be created. The UN then sent many representatives to form a partition plan. There have been several suggestions which both sides rejected, but then came a suggestion which the Jewish side accepted. The Jews then declared independence and were attacked by the Arabs, who didn't declare independence. The Arabs didn't reject the plan because it favored the Jews a little more than Arabs, they didn't reject it because they thought it was unfair, they rejected it because they didn't want a Jewish state at all. Even if the partition plan had been 99% of the lands for Arabs, they wouldn't have accepted it. Israel is not at fault for Arab greed and their failure to accept the Jewish right to create their own state.[/QUOTE] [editline]12:35AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Warhol;22495189]No one lived there... ok, burnemdown, when your brain stops caving in on itself, come back.[/QUOTE] I didn't say no one lived there, but the land was shit. In 1920 about 700,000 people lived in Palestine, now 7 million live In Israel and another 4.5 million live in Gaza and the West Bank.
[QUOTE=Warhol;22494997]1: no shit, really? 2: The Sabra massacres were of refugees, some of which were children. That has nothing to do with the suicide bombings of radical militants. And I'm not even going to ask for a source, you know, that being the 7th time I'd be asking. 3: Radicals are born in radical conditons. If Israel wants to remove radicals, remove the apartheid. 4: So... People shouldn't send them aid? 5: uh, when you have people caged in, conditions kind of go down. I have not in anyway defended Hamas lol, you're just making strawmen arguments.[/QUOTE] 1. Yes. 2. Find a source YOURSELF. Who DID the Sabra massacres? Jews? 3. Radicals are studied in said conditions, made by their leaders. Want to remove radicalism, remove a).Islam, b). Hamas. 4. Shouldn't send things that can aid WAR. No building materials (only on specific objects under Israeli control), no munitions, no weapons. 5. People are caged in when they do shit. You are twisting the chronological order.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22495271]Let me quote a post I wrote on another forum on the subject. [editline]12:35AM[/editline] I didn't say no one lived there, but the land was shit. In 1920 about 700,000 people lived in Palestine, now 7 million live In Israel and another 4.5 million live in Gaza and the West Bank.[/QUOTE] It's still a foreign authority divvying up their land. Yes, they screwed themselves over in greediness. But it's still not surprising that they did not want another state to prop up where they lived, no country would've allowed it either. Nobody just gives away their own land.
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;22495583]It's still a foreign authority divvying up their land. Yes, they screwed themselves over in greediness. But it's still not surprising that they did not want another state to prop up where they lived, no country would've allowed it either. Nobody just gives away their own land.[/QUOTE] Half of Palestine was desert which was populated by nobody (The bottom half). The other half was mostly given to the Arabs, and the lands not given to them were populated mainly by Jews.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494066] [QUOTE=Lambeth;22493480]In canada they do. They call themselves the First Nations Peoples, actually.[/QUOTE] Do they ask for their own state?[/QUOTE] Well the Inuit and similar tribes got their own province, Nunavut. The rest were given the right to self government, among other things that set them apart from average Canadians. Think of it as a society within the society of Canada, I suppose.
Then if they're happy, I don't see a problem.
Except for the fact that Israel has repeatedly after the stage 3, defied the original UN resolution by having illegal settlers within the armistice border area of the West-Bank. They force out Arabs who were living there for non-public usage, and without full compensation. [quote=United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181; Chapter 2, Religious and Minority Rights] No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State (by a Jew in the Arab State)(4) shall be allowed except for public purposes. In all cases of expropriation full compensation as fixed by the Supreme Court shall be said previous to dispossession. [/quote] They also violated via acts of war the same UN resolution, on a second count. The city of Jerusalem does not belong to the state of Israel: [quote=United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181; Part III. - City of Jerusalem] A. SPECIAL REGIME The City of Jerusalem shall be established as a corpus separatum under a special international regime and shall be administered by the United Nations. The Trusteeship Council shall be designated to discharge the responsibilities of the Administering Authority on behalf of the United Nations.[/quote] You can't use the United Nations plan as a basis for the founding of your nation, and then, not even two fucking years later, completely fuck it all up.
Odd that Israel elected to invade that little strip that used to connect Gaza to Egypt. I mean that doesn't look like it is even one mile thick. I imagine they retain it for the purposes of the blockade, but I wonder why they took it in the first place. If I were Israel, I'd almost turn it over to the Gaza strip so that they connect to Egypt and then completely cut off all aid and power to the strip. Legitimize them as a nation (And formally recognize them), give them a border with another, potentially much more friendly, country and lift the naval blockade. Lift the naval blockade six months prior so that Hamas can come up with other sources of power and medical aid. Then make it very clear that any terrorist activity, not just rockets, which can be linked back to Hamas in a multinational (obtain permission from nations, preferably neutral, beforehand and list which ones will be involved) investigation, will result in a formal declaration of war followed by a full scale military assault followed by total occupation, martial law, and permanent integration into Israel. Either the nation flourishes and they gain access to everything they need while Israel no longer has to provide unnecessary aid, or they fail and Israel gains control and Hamas is largely crushed. Either way the conflict is over.
Israel is more worried about casualties on their side than being politically in the right. They won't take any action which will posibly endanger Israeli civilians, even if it will work out better in the long run.
That would actually be a decent solution except for the fact that Hamas isn't really one group, but if you mean linked directly back to the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, then yes, that would be good. Hamas as a whole mostly adhered to all of the ceasefires with Israel. There was a graph posted a while back that I can't seem to find again, but in the months where there were ceasefires, there were at most a couple rockets fired in those months. That would seem to me to just be part of the group not giving a shit. But it would have to be, like you say, an independent investigation into the matter. Otherwise I don't fully trust any of the parties involved, no one in this conflict; no one is really honest, and no one ever admits wrongdoing. [editline]09:49PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Devodiere;22500361]Israel is more worried about casualties on their side than being politically in the right. They won't take any action which will posibly endanger Israeli civilians, even if it will work out better in the long run.[/QUOTE] So Israelis are worth more than those damn dirty Gazans, currently living Israelis are worth more than Israelis in ten years? If this is how they think, they're bigoted and shortsighted and can go fuck themselves.
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