ISRAEL THREAD (Post new Israel threads = get banned)
1,592 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22512202]Well they show them on the second part, some of the non-violent passengers treated the Israeli soldiers, but the way she says it it's like there were no violent passengers at all.[/QUOTE]
You know, if these people were as violent as you are trying to make them out to be, how come they didn't kill any of the soldiers? They could've easily done that when they got control over them, yet they didn't for some reason.
I'm pretty damn sure they tried to. When you drop someone 12 feet, stab another guy in the arm, repetitively bash a person who is already down on the ground, you're not exactly doing it to capture them.
If I had to guess I would say that once they beat the first few soldiers and other non-violent people came they stopped, the non-violent people took the injured soldiers to help them, and then the other Israeli commandos came and the firefight started against only the violent activists, perhaps a few non-violent activists remained on the top deck with them.
Only a guess though.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22512338]I'm pretty damn sure they tried to.[/QUOTE]
rightfully so
if someone dropped on to my ship with guns from a helicopter then I would defend myself too
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22512338]I'm pretty damn sure they tried to. When you drop someone 12 feet, stab another guy in the arm, repetitively bash a person who is already down on the ground, you're not exactly doing it to capture them.
If I had to guess I would say that once they beat the first few soldiers and other non-violent people came they stopped, the non-violent people took the injured soldiers to help them, and then the other Israeli commandos came and the firefight started against only the violent activists, perhaps a few non-violent activists remained on the top deck with them.
Only a guess though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'd say you are now making up your own story to fit your view of what you want to have happened. But truth is, most of the evidence points in the other direction, and at one point you will have to realize that. Answer me honestly on this, WHY do you think the IDF is refusing to return any of the footage they confiscated, and WHY do you think they cut off communication?
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512380]rightfully so
if someone dropped on to my ship with guns from a helicopter then I would defend myself too[/QUOTE]
Even if it was paintball guns, and you would be the one starting the actual fighting, and the guy was already down on the deck, you would have still thought it was necessary to continue beating him\drop him off to the lower deck\stab his arm with a knife\steal his sidearm and shoot him?
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512380]rightfully so
if someone dropped on to my ship with guns from a helicopter then I would defend myself too[/QUOTE]
I hope you never go to a paint ball site. As in they came down with Paint Ball guns.
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22512393]Yeah, I'd say you are now making up your own story to fit your view of what you want to have happened. But truth is, most of the evidence points in the other direction, and at one point you will have to realize that. Answer me honestly on this, WHY do you think the IDF is refusing to return any of the footage they confiscated, and WHY do you think they cut off communication?[/QUOTE]
Cutting off communication is part of a procedure when boarding un-allied ships.
Regarding the footage, I believe that it's because armies don't usually show videos of the way they work or operate, especially not to the whole world.
If an enemy were to come across such videos he could learn the tactics the IDF is using and find weakness and exploit them.
Damn those Palestinians. they should go back to their homeland.
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512380]rightfully so
if someone dropped on to my ship with guns from a helicopter then I would defend myself too[/QUOTE]
Let me ask you this too, do you think the activists on the other ships should have defended themselves against the IDF?
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22512433]I hope you never go to a paint ball site. As in they came down with Paint Ball guns.[/QUOTE]
except they had glock 17s too
don't be surprised when you break into someone's house with a gun, and they decide to shoot you.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22512458]Let me ask you this too, do you think the activists on the other ships should have defended themselves against the IDF?[/QUOTE]
Apparently the passengers of the other ships were beaten severely, only difference was that there were no casualties.
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512471]except they had glock 17s too
don't be surprised when you break into someone's house with a gun, and they decide to shoot you.[/QUOTE]
They were only side-arms and I don't think the activists saw them until they started fighting. Also when someone is rappelling down armed with paintball guns and you can see that he also has 9mm (that's what they had, not glock 17s) I think it's obvious that he doesn't want to use lethal force.
[editline]09:10PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22512485]Apparently the passengers of the other ships were beaten severely, only difference was that there were no casualties.[/QUOTE]
All I've heard was that when the commandos tried to enter the control rooms there were minor struggles.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22512509]They were only side-arms and I don't think the activists saw them until they started fighting. Also when someone is rappelling down armed with paintball guns and you can see that he also has 9mm (that's what they had, not glock 17s) I think it's obvious that he doesn't want to use lethal force.[/QUOTE]
only sidearms lol
yeah.. 17 + 1 and you can shoot them as fast as you can pull the trigger. no big deal!
uh, and a glock 17 is 9mm and that's what the IDF uses.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22512444]Cutting off communication is part of a procedure when boarding un-allied ships.[/quote]
Proof?
[quote]
Regarding the footage, I believe that it's because armies don't usually show videos of the way they work or operate, especially not to the whole world.
If an enemy were to come across such videos he could learn the tactics the IDF is using and find weakness and exploit them.[/QUOTE]
Lol.
That's your answer to every question. Unfortunately for you, you're wrong. Because if that was the case, Israel would of never released their videos, since their POV videos are as exploitable as they can get, with clear grappling techniques, radio transmissions etc.
[editline]07:23PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jugulum;22512142]Ah, I don't think you have seen that picture then, give me a couple of minutes, and I'll track it down. It was part of a couple of pictures that was smuggled out and released by a Turkish newspaper.
[editline]07:50PM[/editline]
Actually found it on Wikipedia:
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Idf_soldier_treated.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
See what happens when the IDF censors all footage from the Flotilla, only allowing their version go through the media? It makes the Flotilla look like savages. Its surprising that all this information was just from one leak, imagine if the other videos weren't censored, there'd be way more to it.
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512556]only sidearms lol
yeah.. 17 + 1 and you can shoot them as fast as you can pull the trigger. no big deal!
uh, and a glock 17 is 9mm and that's what the IDF uses.[/QUOTE]
Didn't know they were both the same :P Don't really know much about guns.
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512380]rightfully so
if someone dropped on to my ship with guns from a helicopter then I would defend myself too[/QUOTE]
Only if you were an idiot. You are surrounded by military vessels and Israeli special forces are rappelling down onto your ship.
Your trip is over at that point.
What happens if you manage to kill the commandos? They either hit you with gunships and slaughter everyone on deck then send more commandos armed with REAL guns, or they SINK YOUR AID SHIP.
Herp derp! Good plan!
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22511461][url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137997?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook[/url]
It's Official: There was No Humanitarian Aid on Mavi Marmara[/QUOTE]
Medications rarely actually expire anywhere remotely near when they say they will. Some will pretty much never expire if properly stored.
Non-profits will frequently make use of this fact and snatch up near-expired medications for dirt cheap because they are just as effective and safe for a fraction of the price.
[editline]02:58PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=JDK721;22512556]only sidearms lol
yeah.. 17 + 1 and you can shoot them as fast as you can pull the trigger. no big deal!
uh, and a glock 17 is 9mm and that's what the IDF uses.[/QUOTE]
Wonder what commandos were doing with glocks. No self respecting special forces operative would be caught dead with one.
[QUOTE=starpluck;22512608]See what happens when the IDF censors all footage from the Flotilla, only allowing their version go through the media? It makes the Flotilla look like savages. Its surprising that all this information was just from one leak, imagine if the other videos weren't censored, there'd be way more to it.[/QUOTE]
Or if they didn't lie.
[url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138002?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook[/url]
[quote]U.S. Army Col. (Ret.) Ann Wright, on a speaking tour of the United States on behalf of radical pacifist women's group Code Pink, bills herself as an eyewitness to the IDF raid on the Mavi Marmara and the “murder” of “nine innocent civilians.” However, in an interview with Aaron Lerner of IMRA, she admits she did not actually see the clash between the IDF soldiers and the armed passengers on board the Mavi Marmara.
In a promotional e-mail on behalf of "Code Pink: Women for Peace," Wright says: “I just returned from the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and started my speaking tour last night in NYC to share what I witnessed aboard the flotilla, and what people can do to end the siege.”
“I witnessed the Israeli attack that killed 9 persons and wounded 50 on the Gaza Flotilla... the murder of nine persons... Tragically, it took another example of disproportionate use of force by the Israeli military that resulted in the deaths of nine innocent civilians to force many governments of the world to call for the Israelis to end the siege of Gaza.”
In the interview with Lerner she admitted that she was not aboard the Mavi Marmara but on a different ship, the Challenger, which was about 150 yards distant from the Marmara.
The confrontation took place between 4:30 and 5:00 a.m., in the dark of night (IDF footage of the raid was carried out with night vision equipment).
In the interview, Lerner asks Wright if she has seen the video that shows the passengers preparing weapons for attacking the soldiers.
Lerner: “You haven't seen the YouTube that shows the rods that had been cut and prepared and the piles of hatchets that were ready?”
Wright: “No, I haven't. I'm still in the process of catching up with all the stuff that's out there.”
She also claims that “the video” (apparently the same video that she said she did not see – ed.) stops at a certain point and does not show that “the captain of the ship and the director of the IHH came out of the wheelhouse and told the guys that were on top 'stop beating these soldiers up.'”
Lerner: Col. Wright I just want to make sure again – so you actually were on a different boat and did not witness the attack firsthand.
Wright: That's correct.
Lerner: So your witnessing is based on the information that you are getting from the other folks who were there.
Wright: My witness will be specifically what happened on our ship, the Challenger. And then I can comment on what happened in the very first three or four minutes as the Israeli commandos were trying to board the ship. We saw that from the stern of the ship. But after that that's when my witnessing from my own eyes of what happened on that ship would end.[/quote]
[QUOTE=GunFox;22513555]Wonder what commandos were doing with glocks. No self respecting special forces operative would be caught dead with one.[/QUOTE]
I just read some more.. I think they use the Glock 19/19C.
[editline]03:10PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=GunFox;22513555]What happens if you manage to kill the commandos?[/QUOTE]
then they die
[QUOTE=GunFox;22513555]
Wonder what commandos were doing with glocks. No self respecting special forces operative would be caught dead with one.[/QUOTE]
I didn't know Ehud Barak had a facepunch account
[editline]08:14PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=GunFox;22513555]Only if you were an idiot. You are surrounded by military vessels and Israeli special forces are rappelling down onto your ship.
Your trip is over at that point.
What happens if you manage to kill the commandos? They either hit you with gunships and slaughter everyone on deck then send more commandos armed with REAL guns, or they SINK YOUR AID SHIP.
[/QUOTE]
they had the right to defend themselves.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22513688]Or if they didn't lie.
[url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138002?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook[/url][/QUOTE]
Do you have a source on this other than Israelnationalnews?
[editline]09:16PM[/editline]
Also, I snickered at the "Related links" on that Israelnationalnews site:
[quote]Related Links:
►Turks Help Hamas Welcome Anti-Israel Ships
►Rage in Turkey; Israelis Warned to Stay Away
►Navy Prepared to Face Anarchists, Met Terrorists Instead
►Radical Islam Behind the Flotilla Organizers
[/quote]
Israel National news is where I get all my unbiased news on Israel
[QUOTE=Warhol;22513854]
they had the right to defend themselves.[/QUOTE]
Not really. It put the lives of all 500 passengers at risk because the group of assholes on deck didn't understand the concept of a peaceful blockade break.
[quote]then they die[/QUOTE]
And then so do you. And all your friends on the boat.
You either show up with warships and shoot your way through a blockade or you show up peacefully and get arrested to make a point.
You can't show up peacefully and then attack when they board your ship. It hurts the entire point of the demonstration.
[QUOTE=GunFox;22514081]Not really. It put the lives of all 500 passengers at risk because the group of assholes on deck didn't understand the concept of a peaceful blockade break.
And then so do you. And all your friends on the boat.
You either show up with warships and shoot your way through a blockade or you show up peacefully and get arrested to make a point.
You can't show up peacefully and then attack when they board your ship. It hurts the entire point of the demonstration.[/QUOTE]
You could use this same line of reasoning to defend a burglar or a robber who ends up murdering the victim the same way.
"If the victim hadn't resisted, he wouldn't have had to kill him."
[editline]09:37PM[/editline]
Why are people trying to pull the blame away from the commandos?
The IDF launched an illegal boarding in the middle of the night, and even the soldiers themselves have admitted that they fired shots and shock grenades before setting foot on the deck, yet people keep on insisting that the members of the flotilla deserves the blame because they defended themselves?
so GunFox, if two people armed with guns stormed into your house you would just comply and let them do whatever they wanted? aren't you the pro-gun guy who thinks shooting people over stealing a TV is okay? I find your position really hypocritical here.
Well if a burglar was caught sneaking into someone's house, and the owner of the house would say, stab him with a knife, and then the burglar had to kill the owner in order to save his own life, I don't think the burglar would be punished for killing the owner of the house, if he could prove he had to do it to save himself.
Also you are forgetting that the boarding was legal, it's more like resisting having your house searched by a police officer with a warrant.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22514505]Well if a burglar was caught sneaking into someone's house, and the owner of the house would say, stab him with a knife, and then the burglar had to kill the owner in order to save his own life, I don't think the burglar would be punished for killing the owner of the house, if he could prove he had to do it to save himself.[/QUOTE]
except the burglar has a gun and just broke into the guy's house
which means the owner has the right to defend himself
your example is terrible
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22514505]the boarding was legal[/QUOTE]
proof
[QUOTE=JDK721;22514408]who thinks shooting people over stealing a TV is okay[/QUOTE]
that's the most stupid thing i've ever heard.
[QUOTE=JDK721;22514408]so GunFox, if two people armed with guns stormed into your house you would just comply and let them do whatever they wanted? coming from the pro-gun guy who thinks shooting people over stealing a TV is okay, I find your position really hypocritical here.[/QUOTE]
Do those two people have a tank outside, military training, and fifteen other commandos standing in my driveway?
Yes? Then yeah. They can take whatever the fuck they want of mine. Defending myself at that point puts my girlfriend at more risk than compliance.
Not to mention that is a completely horrible misrepresentation of this situation in the first place.
[QUOTE=Keeshond v2;22514652]that's the most stupid thing i've ever heard.[/QUOTE]
p. sure GunFox believes it's okay to do that
[editline]03:53PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=GunFox;22514658]Not to mention that is a completely horrible misrepresentation of this situation in the first place.[/QUOTE]
not really
they had the right to defend themselves
the ISRAELITES ASSAULTED their ship
[editline]03:54PM[/editline]
international waters, illegal blockade, etc.
[QUOTE=JDK721;22514676]p. sure GunFox believes it's okay to do that[/QUOTE]
As does every state government in the Union.
My house isn't a boat trying to peacefully break a blockade
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