Innocent Man Shot to Death Inside Own Apartment by Deputies Who Mistook Him for Attempted Murder Sus - Polidicks

Why does this keep happening. This should not keep happening.

In the end, the police fucked up. There is case after case after case of precedence indicating that to police MUST identify themselves, otherwise the average Joe can go about their business how they see fit. That includes self defense. (Starr v. United States) In no circumstance are there "safety concerns" which permit police bust down doors and open fire on people without identifying themselves and affirming their authority. These morons went off the book and a man is dead because of it. This is why police do not [I]wing it.[/I] This is why police who are more interested in protecting and serving themselves than everyone else are bad cops. Police work is not a goddamn video game. You follow the rules and play it by protocol. You don't do shit on the fly and you don't try to fucking innovate in the middle of executing a warrant.

[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;36808426]Hence why I asked if it was standard procedure. We rarely have fatal shootings by police here in Sweden due to the fact that our police is trained to shoot limbs and inflict non-lethal wounds, even against armed suspects. Rubber bullets is a pretty common thing too. I never stated it was like in videogames, neither did i mention shooting in the head. I'm sorry I ruined your day for not knowing the procedures which everyone should know according to the way you wrote your reply.[/QUOTE] [I]Swedish police is not instructed or trained to shoot limbs or inflict non-lethal wounds.[/I] Sweden, Norway and Denmark have pretty much the same setup in their police force, and police officers KNOW they They are trained to shoot to stop or kill. They do not have rubber bullets commonly available, and the police certainly don't endager officers with the chance to [I]put in the WRONG MAGAZINE in a life or death situation[/I]. There's no such training to "shoot to inflict non-lethal wounds". If they use a gun, they are using LETHAL FORCE. They do not use lethal force for LESS-LETHA L (The term non-lethal has been outphased in the Norwegian and Danish armed forces and police so far, not sure about sweden). Both police and soldiers are trained not to even put their finger on the trigger until they are sure they HAVE to kill the person they are aiming at. Norwegian police officers have lost their profession for LIFE, just for shooting to wound armed robbers. A person you can incapacitate with Less-Lethal force is a person you don't need to use a gun on at all, and can get you severely punished, either you are a police officer, a soldier on guard, or a civilian defending your home, even if you are completely within your right. Kill someone, or don't kill them at all. Don't fucking maim them and risk them bleeding to death, or you risking yourself and others killed because [I]you think shooting the limbs with their fuckhuge arteries are in any way LESS LETHAL[/I] than shooting them in the chest which even has a chance of incapacitating them WITHOUT DEATH because of how easily the body can go over in shock. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36812094]No they don't, they shoot with intent to stop. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] Here's the standard procedure; Two bullets to the chest. If they don't go down, they're wearing armor or are on drugs- and that leads to a shot to the head. This is, of course, if the person is attacking them with a weapon.[/QUOTE] That's the Mozambique drill, and it is to make sure someone is [I]dead as fuck[/I], no sane cop does that, and would seem like an execution in a court. If someone was able to calmly hit two rounds in the chest and one in the head, they show they weren't really surprised, or scared, which in some courts can be turned around like it was already decided that the person was supposed to be killed, and it shows no attempt of apprehension or de-escalation.

They should be charged with murder or manslaughter due to not identifying themselves, what the man did was perfectly legal and fucking expected if two armed men knocked at your door in the middle of the night without identifying themselves.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36814645]In the end, the police fucked up. There is case after case after case of precedence indicating that to police MUST identify themselves, otherwise the average Joe can go about their business how they see fit. That includes self defense. (Starr v. United States) In no circumstance are there "safety concerns" which permit police bust down doors and open fire on people without identifying themselves and affirming their authority. These morons went off the book and a man is dead because of it. This is why police do not [I]wing it.[/I] This is why police who are more interested in protecting and serving themselves than everyone else are bad cops. Police work is not a goddamn video game. You follow the rules and play it by protocol. You don't do shit on the fly and you don't try to fucking innovate in the middle of executing a warrant.[/QUOTE] This shit right here. Anyone with with some skeptic thinking wouldn't assume it's Joe coming over to borrow some sugar at that time of day. I honestly hope there will be some consequences to this. I'm quite sure you're allowed to defend yourself in Florida, and that's exactly what the man was trying to do.

This is also the reason that if I ever live in america for any amount of time, I'll buy a security camera so I can see who's at my door. Maybe even some pepper spray dispenser system above the door :v:

[QUOTE=Clementine;36809799]i gotta wonder why he didn't look out his window or little eye hole thing that most front doors have[/QUOTE] You don't really think straight at 1:30 am.

Tomorrow the news is going to come out that they found a joint under his mattress so he was really a drug dealer and it was totally okay to murder him.

This is the USA guys, it's perfectly legal to bare arms, I don't see how you guys can say IT'S 50/50. They came to HIS HOUSE, and then shot him because he answered the door with a gun in the middle of the night? In WHAT WORLD is that 50/50? If the police were so worried, why didn't they send SWAT? Surely it'd be better off to raid the wrong guys house than shoot him at the door. Call me crazy, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with answering your own door with a gun. I personally answer my door with my shotgun in my hands if I feel uncomfortable, I do not point it right at them, though as you are never supposed to point a gun at something you don't intend to kill.

They're cops not soldiers, they have no right to try and gain entry to a dwelling without announcing themselves. I think they should lose their jobs over this. Operational security be damned, the public is more important.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36814645]In the end, the police fucked up. There is case after case after case of precedence indicating that to police MUST identify themselves, otherwise the average Joe can go about their business how they see fit. That includes self defense. (Starr v. United States) In no circumstance are there "safety concerns" which permit police bust down doors and open fire on people without identifying themselves and affirming their authority. These morons went off the book and a man is dead because of it. This is why police do not [I]wing it.[/I] This is why police who are more interested in protecting and serving themselves than everyone else are bad cops. Police work is not a goddamn video game. You follow the rules and play it by protocol. You don't do shit on the fly and you don't try to fucking innovate in the middle of executing a warrant.[/QUOTE] Two wrongs don't make a right, the police should have announced themselves when they knocked on the door. But the guy shouldn't have pulled a gun on them for just knocking on the door. No threat was made at all, yes it may have been early hours but it could have been easily been a drunk or someone else. Kinda funny reading your posts in another thread, seeing as not to long ago you where singing a different tune. Something along the lines people should not be allowed to defend themselves when it comes to home defense and if someone is going to rob them then let them take the shit. You also said who has the right to take someones life over property or like something like that. So if you're going by your old statements this homeowner is 100% in the wrong. Presenting a weapon without any real threat or reason isn't smart, just because the police didn't announce themselves when they knocked on the door does not mean you answer the door with a gun. And on the comment of police who worry about themselves are bad cops.. that is the most asinine statement ever, what good is all that training and money spent on them if they get killed every other day? They have every right to live as the other guy. No knock searches are fucking stupid though, they do need to announce themselves at all times when it comes to stuff like this. I don't see why they worry so much seeing as once that door gets knocked down the people are going to know, so saying POLICE before you do it isn't going to hurt in my eyes. If a criminal is going to shoot a cop, they're going to shoot someone who just kicks in the door. Sometimes that extra few seconds they get from not announcing themselves isn't worth it, specially in this case.

[QUOTE=MR-X;36816636]Two wrongs don't make a right, the police should have announced themselves when they knocked on the door. But the guy shouldn't have pulled a gun on them for just knocking on the door. No threat was made at all, yes it may have been early hours but it could have been easily been a drunk or someone else. Kinda funny reading your posts in another thread, seeing as not to long ago you where singing a different tune. Something along the lines people should not be allowed to defend themselves when it comes to home defense and if someone is going to rob them then let them take the shit. You also said who has the right to take someones life over property or like something like that. So if you're going by your old statements this homeowner is 100% in the wrong. Presenting a weapon without any real threat or reason isn't smart, just because the police didn't announce themselves when they knocked on the door does not mean you answer the door with a gun. And on the comment of police who worry about themselves are bad cops.. that is the most asinine statement ever, what good is all that training and money spent on them if they get killed every other day? They have every right to live as the other guy.[/QUOTE] I'm against whichever side murdered someone. I don't see how that's difficult to understand. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=MR-X;36816636]And on the comment of police who worry about themselves are bad cops.. that is the most asinine statement ever, what good is all that training and money spent on them if they get killed every other day? They have every right to live as the other guy.[/QUOTE] They volunteered to protect and serve the community, not to protect themselves [I]from[/I] the community. If it boils down to either a cop dying or an innocent bystander dying, the cop should be the one doing the dying. They signed up for the job. If they aren't up to it, drop the fucking badge. There is a certain point of being overprotective of themselves that they completely dismantle the entire reason we have a police force. They choose a dangerous job. They are in no way authorized to kill innocent people for their own safety. Never. That goes against the entire idea of being an officer of the law. That's like a doctor going down to Malaria-riddled Africa and then locking all of his patients up in a room so he doesn't catch it. At any point in which priorities conflict, the personal priorities are outweighed by the mission they signed up for. You want to think only about your own safety? Don't become a fucking cop. When your safety costs an innocent life, you don't deserve to have a badge.

Lmao, I'm not saying be over protective and killing innocent people for their own safety. If they're innocent they're not a threat to their safety. No shit it goes against the idea of being a officer, I'm just saying your statement was stupid. They have every right to live as the next guy, that is like saying a soldier knows what he gets himself in to and if he gets blown the fuck up that is. You truly are a simpleton, that is like telling someone who works with infectious bacteria to stop being over protective and using all the equipment to contain and prevent themselves from getting infected because they signed up for the job. If they're so worried about it don't do the job. Everyone has the right to protect themselves, that is my point. I'm not saying they should get a license to kill, they should be held responsible for bad calls and bad incidents. [I]I don't see how that is so difficult to understand. [/I]

[QUOTE=MR-X;36816718]If they're innocent they're not a threat to their safety.[/QUOTE] There is nothing illegal about carrying a firearm in one's own home. This is just more horse shit "they probably deserved it" logic. It does not fly. Someone was banging on his door in the dead of night and they didn't identify themselves. I dunno what the fuck you expect here. Call what he did unwise, but he shouldn't have died. That's on the cops. They didn't even have any substantial reason to [I]be[/I] there, they were just fucking winging it. Don't blame the fucking victim. Police aren't just private citizens. They're highly empowered, and they're expected to behave in respect of that fact. These cops didn't, and it cost a man's life. That's completely on them, not the victim.

You don't bring a gun to the door and hold it upright when someone is knocking. That is horrible gun safety.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36816750]There is nothing illegal about carrying a firearm in one's own home. This is just more horse shit "they probably deserved it" logic. It does not fly. Someone was banging on his door in the dead of night and they didn't identify themselves. I dunno what the fuck you expect here. Call what he did unwise, but he shouldn't have died. That's on the cops. They didn't even have any substantial reason to [I]be[/I] there, they were just fucking winging it. Don't blame the fucking victim. Police aren't just private citizens. They're highly empowered, and they're expected to behave in respect of that fact. These cops didn't, and it cost a man's life. That's completely on them, not the victim.[/QUOTE] The whole situation could have been avoided if the police announced themselves (Which would have been best) or if the guy didn't answer the door with a gun like an idiot. If he was truly scared for his life why did he open the door? Most people who are scared don't open the door, they retreat or barricade themselves. Both sides fucked up and it could have been a situation easily avoided if both didn't act unreasonably.

[QUOTE=MR-X;36816836]The whole situation could have been avoided if the police announced themselves (Which would have been best) or if the guy didn't answer the door with a gun like an idiot. If he was truly scared for his life why did he open the door? Most people who are scared don't open the door, they retreat or barricade themselves. Both sides fucked up and it could have been a situation easily avoided if both didn't act unreasonably.[/QUOTE] No, the side that fucking murdered someone fucked up. This is the kind of logic that leads to dumbass arguments like "if women don't want to be raped they shouldn't dress provocatively or leave the house at night." The blame does not fall on the victim. Ever. In any capacity.

[QUOTE=Negrul1;36814543]Why does this keep happening. This should not keep happening.[/QUOTE] so many times I have read on this site alone of a story where police are at the wrong house or apartment (damn this must be real easy to do) and end up killing or injuring someone, or killing a dog or something

[QUOTE=MR-X;36816836]The whole situation could have been avoided if the police announced themselves (Which would have been best) or if the guy didn't answer the door with a gun like an idiot. If he was truly scared for his life why did he open the door? Most people who are scared don't open the door, they retreat or barricade themselves. Both sides fucked up and it could have been a situation easily avoided if both didn't act unreasonably.[/QUOTE] I'm not pro-gun, but I can understand carrying a firearm to open the door late at night, particularly if it was a rough area. What I can't understand is the Police not identifying themselves. No-Knock warrants are a bad idea. I understand that letting someone know that the Police are entering puts them at greater risk, but it also prevents innocent people being killed.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36816860]No, the side that fucking murdered someone fucked up. This is the kind of logic that leads to dumbass arguments like "if women don't want to be raped they shouldn't dress provocatively or leave the house at night." The blame does not fall on the victim. Ever. In any capacity.[/QUOTE] No, just no. While it may generally not be the victim's fault, there are plenty of cases where the person who was hurt (or killed) brought it upon themselves. Prime example, a person with an airsoft gun without an orange tip pointing it at a cop. In this case, I think both parties are partly at fault, the police more so as they should have said that they were, you know, the police. On the other hand, if the victim felt the need to the answer the door with a gun pointed at whoever was knocking perhaps he should have called out asking who was at the door (and warned them he was armed). But it was 1:30, so even if the victim was already awake, I doubt he was thinking clearly.

Lankist is correct, the police were in the wrong in this case, and they should be fired, if not charged with the death of an innocent person. I can't recall the specific charge for a police officer, but I believe it's wrongful death. Even if he had looked through a peephole and saw two uniformed officers, there is no guarantee they are police officers. Police uniforms are no different than clothes for any other uniformed service(even janitors wear the same type of shirts). In fact, entire sets can be bought online, minus an official badge which can be easily faked. At 1:30AM, they were violating protocol by even knocking on the door. They themselves are disturbing the peace knocking on doors at that time, a motorcycle sitting out front of a house is not justification. If they did have a real reason to believe the suspect was inside the house, they fucked up going at it alone. Several units should have been called in quietly to surround the area, and a tactical team would have entered the building. If a door to door search is EVER necessary, they flood the street with police cars, lights blazing so you know goddamn well it's the cops when your windows are flashing red and blue. Door to door search teams also make their presence very clear to avoid situations exactly like this Also people, robberies are committed all the time with the occupants still in the house. At the time in which this incident took place, the occupants are already mentally foggy, and by knocking and having the owner unlock the door for you, a robber is then presented with a great opportunity to surprise a victim. This guy was smart having the weapon drawn the second he opened the door. There have been cases where the second a door cracks open, a thief charges the door and knocks the person behind it backwards. This isn't too different than the 'have a girl knock on the door and see all who's inside tactic' that was recently posted. The cops here fucked up, and they should be charged. I hope an official investigation supports charges against the officers. Being a police officer is a risky job, and when you breach protocol this is exactly what happens.

Holy shit. Last month the police banged on my door at 2am. They didn't identify themselves and just kept banging on the screen door. I had no idea who it was so I walked to the door, then I heard them trying to turn the knob, it sounded like someone trying to break in. There's enough tweakers in my neighborhood so I was freaked out, I went into my room and picked up a gun, waiting for someone to kick down the door. Then I picked up my phone and found a bunch of missed calls from my dad, he'd called the police to check on me and see if I was home because I didn't call after class and they thought I wrecked or something. I couldn't sleep that night imagining what would've happened if I'd opened the door with a gun in my hand...

[QUOTE=Camundongo;36817036]I'm not pro-gun, but I can understand carrying a firearm to open the door late at night, particularly if it was a rough area. What I can't understand is the Police not identifying themselves. No-Knock warrants are a bad idea. I understand that letting someone know that the Police are entering puts them at greater risk, but it also prevents innocent people being killed.[/QUOTE] From what I understand, they had no warrant to enter. They saw a suspect's car nearby and assumed the suspect was inside the nearest door. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=DaMastez;36817064]No, just no. While it may generally not be the victim's fault, there are plenty of cases where the person who was hurt (or killed) brought it upon themselves. Prime example, a person with an airsoft gun without an orange tip pointing it at a cop. In this case, I think both parties are partly at fault, the police more so as they should have said that they were, you know, the police. On the other hand, if the victim felt the need to the answer the door with a gun pointed at whoever was knocking perhaps he should have called out asking who was at the door (and warned them he was armed). But it was 1:30, so even if the victim was already awake, I doubt he was thinking clearly.[/QUOTE] Except the police had no business there to begin with. They made an incorrect assumption with no evidence and it ended with a fatality. That is not the victim's fault at all.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36817158]From what I understand, they had no warrant to enter. They saw a suspect's car nearby and assumed the suspect was inside the nearest door.[/QUOTE] How the fuck are these guys still serving members of the force? "Yeah, we'll just knock on this guy's door on a hunch without a warrant at 1:30am, that seems reasonable."

-snip-

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;36817401]Two people in an officers outfit? They must be fake![/QUOTE] Why don't you look up how common it is for yourself before making snarky remarks? You know what, [URL="http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=men%20dressed%20as%20p&cp=31&gs_id=49&xhr=t&q=men+dressed+as+police+officers&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=men+dressed+as+police+officers+&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=d235b68688e6ce73&biw=1366&bih=768"]here[/URL]. Google is a complicated thing. I mean, it's not like there was a [U]famous incident in Norway about a man dressed as a police officer recently or anything...[/U]

[QUOTE=evilweazel;36813149]Uh where did you get this from? I've never heard of this being what the police are supposed to do.[/QUOTE] [URL]http://community.adn.com/node/161682[/URL] I was told this by an officer, sorry it took me so long to find an actual source. Officers do not (usually) shoot with the intent to kill, but rather to stop. [QUOTE=Lankist;36814542]Haha uhh no police don't aim for the head ever. Nobody with training does. [B]Aiming for the head is video game bullshit.[/B] All shots are aimed for the center of mass at all times, armor or not. Specifically, the heart. If they don't intend to kill, they use non-lethal weaponry, of which their belts are in plentiful supply. Armed civilians shoot to stop. Police are equipped with an array of non-lethal tools specifically so that when they pull out their gun, they always mean business. A firearm is [I]always[/I] lethal force, and you don't use lethal force in any circumstance in which lethal force is not justified.[/QUOTE] We have a gang problem here, and they have bulletproof vests more often than you'd think. It's not always possible to stop or kill someone by shooting the center of mass.

this is sad all around but honestly unless one party or the other actually [i]wanted[/i] to get shot I can't see them having done anything else police identify themselves as police, it turns out it is in fact the murderer they're looking for? they're dead guy opens door without a weapon and it's someone trying to mug him? dead or injured honestly, I can't fault anyone in this situation, unless they could see into the future

[QUOTE=cccritical;36817718]this is sad all around but honestly unless one party or the other actually [i]wanted[/i] to get shot I can't see them having done anything else [B]police identify themselves as police, it turns out it is in fact the murderer they're looking for? they're dead[/B] guy opens door without a weapon and it's someone trying to mug him? dead or injured honestly, I can't fault anyone in this situation, unless they could see into the future[/QUOTE] Um this is not an acceptable reason for police officers to not announce themselves. So yes they are entirely at fault for this. What makes you think in such a scenario the murderer wouldn't kill a bunch of people who refuse to identify themselves while demanding entry?

[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36817513][URL]http://community.adn.com/node/161682[/URL] I was told this by an officer, sorry it took me so long to find an actual source. Officers do not (usually) shoot with the intent to kill, but rather to stop. We have a gang problem here, and they have bulletproof vests more often than you'd think. It's not always possible to stop or kill someone by shooting the center of mass.[/QUOTE] You don't stand up and walk it off when you're shot wearing a bulletproof vest, it doesn't magically make the bullet disappear, you're still hit with incredible force.