Innocent Man Shot to Death Inside Own Apartment by Deputies Who Mistook Him for Attempted Murder Sus - Polidicks

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;36817522]Still, not typically the first thing someone thinks when they see an officer. Unless your paranoid.[/QUOTE] Paranoid would be always answering the door with a gun pointed at your guest, regardless of time of day and the circumstances. Carefulness is examing the oddities of a situation and taking the best approach. This situation was odd because the police broke protocol.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;36817839]You don't stand up and walk it off when you're shot wearing a bulletproof vest, it doesn't magically make the bullet disappear, you're still hit with incredible force.[/QUOTE] Yes, but you're able to pick yourself up again, especially if you're on drugs.

[QUOTE=cccritical;36817718]police identify themselves as police, it turns out it is in fact the murderer they're looking for? they're dead[/QUOTE] And if they don't, innocent people die. The police can fucking deal. They shouldn't be investigating shit on assumptions, with no warrants.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36817158]Except the police had no business there to begin with. They made an incorrect assumption with no evidence and it ended with a fatality. That is not the victim's fault at all.[/QUOTE] They had reason to be there: [quote=Article][B]Brown was spotted[/B] at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex [B]and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door[/B].[/quote] They physically witness the suspect being in the complex, they have his means of transportation there as well, I think that's evidence. You know, they did get the guy afterward. If you turn the page of the article he was eventually found near the apartment complex: [quote=Page 2 of Article]Brown was arrested near the same building where Scott was shot. Brown and another suspect in the same case, Anthony Rodriguez, were booked into the Lake County Jail over the weekend. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is handling the investigation of the shooting and the deputy who fired, as well as the two who were on the scene with him, are on administrative leave.[/quote] Unfortunately, this article gives no details as to the nature of the actual criminal other than "attempted murderer". I'm assuming the officers rightfully knew he was armed and you can understand their precautions to not announce themselves at the door of this armed murder suspect as they're about to barge into his home. The suspect has the advantage being barricaded in his home and the cop's only real advantage is surprise. Throw in the fact that THIS victim instead answered the door armed and you can see how shitty the situation was to become. It's unfortunate but I think the officers are being dealt with accordingly...though an investigation will probably call for a more severe punishment since, after all, the wrong guy was killed. It's a misunderstanding.

[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;36818496]They had reason to be there: They physically witness the suspect being in the complex, they have his means of transportation there as well, I think that's evidence. You know, they did get the guy afterward. If you turn the page of the article he was eventually found near the apartment complex: [/QUOTE] It is not sufficient evidence to start raiding the nearest apartment and shooting a motherfucker. At all. They had no warrant and they had no probable cause for that course of action. They had no substantiating evidence or cause to believe the suspect was in that apartment, and yet they assumed he was as evidenced by their "safety concerns." Had they announced themselves and questioned tenants, that would have been acceptable. They didn't. They went silent, assumed the suspect was in that specific apartment for no reason, and went in guns-drawn. Now an innocent man is dead. There is no excuse good enough. [I]They fucked up.[/I]

[QUOTE=Lankist;36818558]They had no warrant [/QUOTE] I don't recall the article ever mentioning anything about warrants; whether they did or didn't. If they're after an attempted murder suspect I'm assuming they have a warrant out for his arrest. Unless there's something more here that you know and I don't? [quote]It is not sufficient evidence to start raiding [B]the nearest apartment[/B] and shooting a motherfucker.[/quote] What? They [I]physically see him[/I] themselves IN the complex they ended up raiding. They make their move. They come across his vehicle across the door of the victim. How much more do you need? It's perfectly reasonable that given these circumstances they made the decision as they did. The very fact that they saw the suspect in the apartment they raided invalidates the rest of what you said. This wasn't just "he's somewhere in the area, lets assume it's that apartment complex right there." This was "He's in this building here, we saw him, lets get the guy. His vehicle is outside this door? This must be his apartment." Obviously the officers fucked up (no shit, they shot and ultimately killed the wrong guy) but you're wrong making them out to being cowboys who broke "protocol". Unless you're a police officer or have any law enforcement experience, don't expect me to take your word on what's considered "protocol" and what isn't, by the way. I think they took reasonable steps under the circumstances but they were further compounded by the other party who had to have a weapon in his hands, pointed at officers. Reprimand will come in some form but that's up to the investigation to determine how severe.

[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;36818496] Unfortunately, this article gives no details as to the nature of the actual criminal other than "attempted murderer". [B]I'm assuming the officers rightfully knew he was armed and you can understand their precautions to not announce themselves at the door of this armed murder suspect as they're about to barge into his home.[/B] The suspect has the advantage being barricaded in his home and the cop's only real advantage is surprise. Throw in the fact that THIS victim instead answered the door armed and you can see how shitty the situation was to become. [/QUOTE] Maybe if you read the article you would realize that they did announce themselves. They just refused to identify themselves as police when they did so, as if that would make demanding entry on someone who would be willing to shoot police any less dangerous.

[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;36818933]This wasn't just "he's somewhere in the area, lets assume it's that apartment complex right there." This was "He's in this building here, we saw him, lets get the guy. His vehicle is outside this door? This must be his apartment."[/QUOTE] Yeah, buddy, guilt by association is not justification, especially when it's that flimsy. And they did break protocol. I already cited a Supreme Court ruling (Starr v. United States) which demands police announce themselves, otherwise private citizens may defend themselves accordingly. There is absolutely no fault on the victim on a basic, legal level. And if you think raiding an apartment without saying the word "police" once is 'reasonable,' you're fucking nuts. That's not how police operate. Even no-knock warrants dictate police must announce themselves before firing on someone. People cannot cooperate with police if the police refuse to identify themselves as such. If they behave like a bunch of burglars in the middle of the night, of fucking course that's going to end poorly. The "safety precaution" argument is bullshit, because nobody would be fucking dead if they'd said the words "we are the police." When your precautions turn an otherwise innocuous knock on the door into a fucking firefight, they aren't precautions.

[QUOTE=Mateo!;36817125]Holy shit. Last month the police banged on my door at 2am. They didn't identify themselves and just kept banging on the screen door. I had no idea who it was so I walked to the door, then I heard them trying to turn the knob, it sounded like someone trying to break in. There's enough tweakers in my neighborhood so I was freaked out, I went into my room and picked up a gun, waiting for someone to kick down the door. Then I picked up my phone and found a bunch of missed calls from my dad, he'd called the police to check on me and see if I was home because I didn't call after class and they thought I wrecked or something. I couldn't sleep that night imagining what would've happened if I'd opened the door with a gun in my hand...[/QUOTE] I think you handled it the rational way. You armed yourself and you stayed in the safest place you could- INSIDE, behind a closed door. Then you get on the phone and verify what's going on, in your case by seeing your messages but you could have also called the police department and asked if those were real cops outside. What you don't do is go and open the door with a gun in your hand if you think those might be criminals outside. Then you are just asking for problems.

This one is too fucked to make a good opinion. Both sides are faulted, but you can't be totally against the Deputies. My thought is that they didn't let themselves be known so the guy wouldn't hear "Police" and just come out shooting. Details of what the guy actually did besides "attempted murder" would be nice. At least that's what I gathered from it.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36814645]In the end, the police fucked up. There is case after case after case of precedence indicating that to police MUST identify themselves, otherwise the average Joe can go about their business how they see fit. That includes self defense. (Starr v. United States)[/QUOTE] Well then. I was under the assumption that the opposite was true.

This is fucking scary. I HAVE answered the door exactly like that, rifle at the ready and everything, leveled at the head of some random guy who wanted to know what time it was at three in the morning. Though... he didn't knock, and there was two break-ins near here that month (nobody was home, but the robbers did shoot a dog) so I was suspicious of any stranger.[QUOTE=Lankist;36816860]The blame does not fall on the victim. Ever. In any capacity.[/QUOTE]What about the guy who was living next to grizzly bears for months and months and finally got mauled the fuck to death by a goddamn grizzly bear? Victims can be blamed for their own stupidity, people do dumb things and have to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying that the homeowner can be blamed in this case, in fact, I totally agree with you. However, the statement that "the blame does not fall on the victim, ever" is a bit ridiculous and I'm just posting to point that out.

Can't FP just agree both parties are at fault?

No, because it is entirely the fault of the officers by not announcing themselves.

Yeah, this is exactly why there are laws requiring Police to identify themselves as law enforcement before opening fire. Comment says it best 'There was fault only on the side of the police. This is terrible. The dead man did not need to explain why he was armed - it's his home that strangers were coming to in the middle of the night. The police did not announce who they were. This is horrendous.' Too bad the only way for a cop to get fired or brought up on charges in this country is shooting up the wife in their own home off duty. Aside from that it's the usual, 'cover this up and back to business'.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;36822603]No, because it is entirely the fault of the officers by not announcing themselves.[/QUOTE] It was stupid of the cops to do that, it was stupid for the guy to be pointing a rifle.

[QUOTE=ThePinkPanzer;36823220]It was stupid of the cops to do that, it was stupid for the guy to be pointing a rifle.[/QUOTE] No, it was legal for the guy to point a rifle at the cops, and illegal for them to shoot him. They were the intruders, they are at fault. They are the only ones at fault.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;36823276]No, it was legal for the guy to point a rifle at the cops, and illegal for them to shoot him. They were the intruders, they are at fault. They are the only ones at fault.[/QUOTE] sorry i missed the part where they broke into the fucken house. it's not trespassing or illegal to knock on a door; they have every right to, otherwise i could fucken arrest every cunt who comes onto my doorstep trying to sell me car-cleaner. nor was it illegal to shoot a cunt pointing a gun at them when they hadn't done anything illegal. the real question is whether it was legal or not for them not to identify themselves. i'm gonna take a wild guess and say it was, because if i thought some criminal violent motherfucker was behind the door i wouldn't identify myself either otherwise he'll just fucken kill me through a window. unless someone here can specifically point out a breach of law or official police protocol (and no "that's just stupid" doesnt count) then i can't see why this is anything other than a horrific accident.

[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;36823321]sorry i missed the part where they broke into the fucken house. it's not trespassing or illegal to knock on a door; they have every right to, otherwise i could fucken arrest every cunt who comes onto my doorstep trying to sell me car-cleaner. nor was it illegal to shoot a cunt pointing a gun at them when they hadn't done anything illegal. the real question is whether it was legal or not for them not to identify themselves. i'm gonna take a wild guess and say it was, because if i thought some criminal violent motherfucker was behind the door i wouldn't identify myself either otherwise he'll just fucken kill me through a window. unless someone here can specifically point out a breach of law or official police protocol (and no "that's just stupid" doesnt count) then i can't see why this is anything other than a horrific accident.[/QUOTE] The police are ordered by law to identify themselves, unless someone shows that they aren't. You're legally able to point a gun at somebody who says "OPEN THE DOOR" at in the middle of the night, and not say that they're police. Doesn't seem too out of the question to be honest. He didn't shoot, he just opened the door, being cautious.

[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;36823321]sorry i missed the part where they broke into the fucken house. it's not trespassing or illegal to knock on a door; they have every right to, otherwise i could fucken arrest every cunt who comes onto my doorstep trying to sell me car-cleaner. nor was it illegal to shoot a cunt pointing a gun at them when they hadn't done anything illegal. the real question is whether it was legal or not for them not to identify themselves. i'm gonna take a wild guess and say it was, because if i thought some criminal violent motherfucker was behind the door i wouldn't identify myself either otherwise he'll just fucken kill me through a window. unless someone here can specifically point out a breach of law or official police protocol (and no "that's just stupid" doesnt count) then i can't see why this is anything other than a horrific accident.[/QUOTE] Starr v. United States

[QUOTE=Zally13;36823371]The police are ordered by law to identify themselves, unless someone shows that they aren't. You're legally able to point a gun at somebody who says "OPEN THE DOOR" at in the middle of the night, and not say that they're police. Doesn't seem too out of the question to be honest. He didn't shoot, he just opened the door, being cautious.[/QUOTE] Which law? To address below, Starr v. US applies (as far as I'm aware) to arrests. This wasn't an arrest - this was knocking on a door. I'm not saying the guy's at fault for opening the door with a gun (although frankly I wouldn't whirl my door open at gunpoint without checking who's behind it, just in case THIS happened) - I just can't see what the police did wrong, and how this isn't just a terrible accident.

[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;36823575]Which law? To address below, Starr v. US applies (as far as I'm aware) to arrests. This wasn't an arrest - this was knocking on a door. I'm not saying the guy's at fault for opening the door with a gun (although frankly I wouldn't whirl my door open at gunpoint without checking who's behind it, just in case THIS happened) - I just can't see what the police did wrong, and how this isn't just a terrible accident.[/QUOTE] This was an arrest, dummy. They were trying to arrest someone they thought was in the house, they didn't announce themselves.

[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;36818496]They had reason to be there: They physically witness the suspect being in the complex, they have his means of transportation there as well, I think that's evidence. You know, they did get the guy afterward. If you turn the page of the article he was eventually found near the apartment complex: [/QUOTE] The police did not physically see the suspect, else it would have been mentioned in the article. The point about the motorcycle being parked across from the house would not have been made. They were most likely responding to a reported sighting and in a routine check found a motorcycle that matched the description and plates of one belonging to the suspect. If this had been the case, then the victim would have been at fault here for harboring a fugitive. The fact that he was arrested nearby is completely irrelevant to this situation. [QUOTE] Unfortunately, this article gives no details as to the nature of the actual criminal other than "attempted murderer". I'm assuming the officers rightfully knew he was armed and you can understand their precautions to not announce themselves at the door of this armed murder suspect as they're about to barge into his home. The suspect has the advantage being barricaded in his home and the cop's only real advantage is surprise. Throw in the fact that THIS victim instead answered the door armed and you can see how shitty the situation was to become.[/QUOTE] Regular officers do not breach buildings, this isn't TV. In the event of a barricaded suspect who is clearly [U]not[/U] on the move, the solution is again to call for backup to set up a perimeter. Police do this because they want to make sure the suspect has no route for escape and that the apprehension of the suspect does not pose a risk to the general public. A tactical team will then breach, not knock on the door. This was in no way a barricaded suspect situation. If the officers had thought it was, they made the wrong call. This would have been the only justifiable situation to not identify themselves as police officers before entering the building. This may have been an attempt to service a warrant, which would be the only justification for officers to have their weapons drawn when knocking on the door. Because of this, they were required to identify themselves as police officers, since the reason for a warrant to be issued is to make an arrest. By not doing so they would have invalidated any arrest made based on orders of the warrant. What I personally think this is was a knock on the door to see who lived at the house. In which case, they should have again identified themselves. Their weapons should not have been drawn. There would have been several moments between him opening the door and officers drawing their weapons for them to identify themselves as police officers.

[QUOTE=scout1;36807951]Jesus fuck life is not a video game.[/QUOTE] the majority of people on this forum are autistic so the truth has no effect

How about giving this to every officer as a standard equipment? [IMG]http://cdn.knowitsdifference.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/taser-gun.jpg[/IMG] [B][SUP]Edited:[/SUP][/B] Well, yea.. It works in most cases...

[QUOTE=rikimaru6811;36825711]How about giving this to every officer as a standard equipment? [IMG]http://cdn.knowitsdifference.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/taser-gun.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Heart attacks.

[QUOTE=rikimaru6811;36825711]How about giving this to every officer as a standard equipment? [IMG]http://cdn.knowitsdifference.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/taser-gun.jpg[/IMG] [B][SUP]Edited:[/SUP][/B] Well, yea.. It works in most cases...[/QUOTE] That wouldn't have even been remotely useful in this situation. Plus, Lake County, Florida has already been equipped with tasers.

[QUOTE=Griffster26;36825880]Heart attacks.[/QUOTE] Better than a bullet ripping your heart apart.

[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36818029]Yes, but you're able to pick yourself up again, especially if you're on drugs.[/QUOTE] That's why the police shoots for center mass, and keeps shooting until the person goes down. [QUOTE=rikimaru6811;36825711]How about giving this to every officer as a standard equipment? [IMG]http://cdn.knowitsdifference.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/taser-gun.jpg[/IMG] [B][SUP]Edited:[/SUP][/B] Well, yea.. It works in most cases...[/QUOTE] Are you sure you wanna tase someone with a gun?

This is pretty much the end result of the no-knock warrant service type thing law enforcement has been trending toward for a long time. As law enforcement takes measures to ensure officer safety, it creates more opportunities for misunderstanding and risk towards civilians. There are actually robberies where the robbers have dressed up as cops pretending to service a warrant, showing up in police labeled body armor. Obviously, the average citizen pretty much has no recourse when law enforcement is given this much leeway. [editline]19th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Governor Goblin;36833424]Better than a bullet ripping your heart apart.[/QUOTE] except less lethal has its own downsides. Remember the border patrol officer with the beanbag shotgun?