[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136947]You do realize that being Jewish is an ethnic and religious thing? You can be ethnically Jewish without being religious. However, even the ethnic Jews without any connection to the religion do some religious things because it's integrated into the culture. There is absolutely no way for Bernie Sanders to be a religious Jew without going to a shul for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.[/QUOTE]
yes, why do you think i made the distinction before? he's said he considers himself religiously jewish before and he's said he considers himself agnostic before, it shouldn't matter what his damn religious tendencies are
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50134047]Nearly all your arguments boil down to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy#Guilt_by_association_as_an_ad_hominem_fallacy"]guilt by association[/URL].
Bernie is a socialist, these bad guys were socialists. Bernie is a bad guy.
[/QUOTE]
Bernie attended a Stalinist Kibbutz, that's extremely concerning
[QUOTE]Bernie said some good things about Pope Francis. That means that Bernie believes and supports everything Pope Francis does. Do you seriously think Bernie supports a ban on contraception and abortion because he admires some of what the pope has said?
[/QUOTE]
No I don't think Bernie supports a ban on those things. However, it's strange that a Jew would prefer the company of a Pope instead of a Rabbi, especially considering that in Bernie's lifetime the Vatican had finally stopped the centuries long policy of blaming all Jews for the death of Jesus.
[QUOTE]If what he said really offended you that much, you got some thin fucking skin. Accusing him of invoking the holocaust seems like the new invoking-the-holocaust.
[/QUOTE]
Look at the quote I posted? He did invoke the holocaust.
[QUOTE]The Hill reported that “Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday invoked his ancestors’ deaths in Holocaust concentration camps as he embraced a Muslim student and promised to lead the fight against racism.”
“Let me be very personal if I might. I’m Jewish, my father’s family died in concentration camps,” Sanders said. “I will do everything that I can to rid this country of the ugly stain of racism that has existed for far too many years.”[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The. same. shit. Guilt by association. Point out something Bernie has actually said or done because you are grasping at straws. So Bernie talks to someone and you bring up the fact that the person he was talking to posted something you didn't like? You're making no sense.
[/QUOTE]
I'll show another example then. Bernie has advocated against giving Israel military aid since 1971. If not for the military aid given by the US, Israel (the only Jewish state since the fall of Khazaria) would have lost the Yom Kippur war. If you want a more recent example; this is a good one.
[URL="http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-israel-218149"]http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-israel-218149[/URL]
[QUOTE]
A decade later, he was the only Jewish member of Congress not to back a House resolution condemning the Palestinians and expressing solidarity with Israel after two Palestinian suicide attacks killed dozens. Sanders voted present, and the measure passed, 384-11.
In July 2014, during the Gaza war, the Senate unanimously approved a resolution supporting Israel "as it defends itself against unprovoked rocket attacks" by Hamas; Sanders was one of 21 senators who did not co-sponsor the measure, which made no mention of Palestinian suffering.
And when word leaked in early 2015 that Netanyahu would deliver a March 2015 address to a joint meeting of Congress that was arranged by House Speaker John Boehner without the advance knowledge of the Obama White House, Sanders was the first senator to announce he would not attend the speech.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]When and where? If you literally meant stood by, he's standing right next to Hilary Clinton as I type this. I guess Bernie must agree with her and everything she's done by your logic.
[/QUOTE]
I made a mistake. Bernie brags about his support from Keith Ellison even though Keith Ellison has worked closely with people like Farrakhan and Muhammad. If you're a Jew, why would you brag about having support from someone with close ties to anti-semites? It's like a black person bragging about having a supporter who supports the KKK.
[editline]15th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;50136987]yes, why do you think i made the distinction before? he's said he considers himself religiously jewish before and he's said he considers himself agnostic before, it shouldn't matter what his damn religious tendencies are[/QUOTE]
Well, under your logic any random dumbfuck can say he's Jewish and people who are actually Jewish can't question it. That's inherently wrong.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136995]Well, under your logic any random dumbfuck can say he's Jewish and people who are actually Jewish can't question it. That's inherently wrong.[/QUOTE]
there's nothing wrong with this
if someone decides they'd like to subscribe to the judaistic faith system in their own way and begin to consider themselves religiously jewish, it's their constitutionally protected right
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136995]
Well, under your logic any random dumbfuck can say he's Jewish and people who are actually Jewish can't question it. That's inherently wrong.[/QUOTE]
Sorry bud, if a Jewish guy says he's religiously Jewish, I'm gonna believe him. Its not my place, or yours to determine if this guy is religious enough. His religion and how he practices it is his business, not yours.
[quote]In July 2014, during the Gaza war, the Senate unanimously approved a resolution supporting Israel "as it defends itself against unprovoked rocket attacks" by Hamas; Sanders was one of 21 senators who did not co-sponsor the measure, which made no mention of Palestinian suffering.[/quote]
Okay why is this significant in any way? All this tells me is that he doesn't stand behind what boils down to an atrocity, not that it stands out very much when you compare it to the direct and indirect suffering inflicted on Palestinian civilians for the decades since Israel's creation, ie Gaza, settlements aka annexation, the existence of Hamas; not that Hamas are good people, but if you and your family, friends and everyone you know are suffering because the actions of a state that's politically, economically and militarily backed by the west, you'd be hard pressed to find any viable options - Not that trying to fight it falls within that definition either, but it ranks high among the most natural responses. Being Jewish, ethnically or otherwise, doesn't stop you from seeing that.
The Hill reported that “Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday invoked his ancestors’ deaths in Holocaust concentration camps as he embraced a Muslim student and promised to lead the fight against racism.”
“Let me be very personal if I might. I’m Jewish, my father’s family died in concentration camps,” Sanders said. “I will do everything that I can to rid this country of the ugly stain of racism that has existed for far too many years.”
??? Members of his family died as a result of institutional racism to the extreme degree, and doesn't want other people to be victims of racism either and expressed this to a [I]m[/I][I]uslim?[/I]? Ugh, such an anti-semite.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;50137115]Okay why is this significant in any way? All this tells me is that he doesn't stand behind what boils down to an atrocity, not that it stands out very much when you compare it to the direct and indirect suffering inflicted on Palestinian civilians for the decades since Israel's creation, ie Gaza, settlements aka annexation, the existence of Hamas; not that Hamas are good people, but if you and your family, friends and everyone you know are suffering because the actions of a state that's politically, economically and militarily backed by the west, you'd be hard pressed to find any viable options - Not that trying to fight it falls within that definition either, but it ranks high among the most natural responses. Being Jewish, ethnically or otherwise, doesn't stop you from seeing that.[/QUOTE]
Defending yourself against rockets aimed at your civilians centers is now an atrocity?
[editline]15th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=EnlightenDead;50137045]Sorry bud, if a Jewish guy says he's religiously Jewish, I'm gonna believe him. Its not my place, or yours to determine if this guy is religious enough. His religion and how he practices it is his business, not yours.[/QUOTE]
We're going to have to disagree here then
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136995]Bernie attended a Stalinist Kibbutz, that's extremely concerning[/quote]
In 1963.
[Quote]No I don't think Bernie supports a ban on those things. However, it's strange that a Jew would prefer the company of a Pope instead of a Rabbi, especially considering that in Bernie's lifetime the Vatican had finally stopped the centuries long policy of blaming all Jews for the death of Jesus.[/quote]
Did Bernie actually say he prefers the company of a Pope over a rabbi or are you just inferring that?
[Quote]Look at the quote I posted? He did invoke the holocaust.[/quote]
It's such a non issue that he brought up the Holocaust.
[Quote]I'll show another example then. Bernie has advocated against giving Israel military aid since 1971. If not for the military aid given by the US, Israel (the only Jewish state since the fall of Khazaria) would have lost the Yom Kippur war. If you want a more recent example; this is a good one.
[URL="http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-israel-218149"]http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-israel-218149[/URL][/quote]
This is the only good point you've made in this post. If US and Israel relations are important to you, and you want to vote for the best candidate for Israel, then you're right. Bernie is not your guy. Pointing out his actual views/voting records/actions that you disagree with is very different than a lot of your other noises where you seem to be tenuously accusing him of being an anti-Semite.
[Quote]I made a mistake. Bernie brags about his support from Keith Ellison even though Keith Ellison has worked closely with people like Farrakhan and Muhammad. If you're a Jew, why would you brag about having support from someone with close ties to anti-semites? It's like a black person bragging about having a supporter who supports the KKK.[/QUOTE]
This is more guilt by association and you just separated him by another degree, which should mean even less.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50137129]Defending yourself against rockets aimed at your civilians centers is now an atrocity?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say bombing hospitals & infrastructure in densely populated areas within what's essentially a giant prison (Run by the ones doing the bombing no less) falls under the definition of defence. How many Israelis have been killed by rocket attacks? How many Palestinian civilians have died as a result of Israel's retaliation? "Those people live within the same square mile as suspected weapons stockpiles? Fuck them and their healthcare"
Also on the subject of military funding, Israel probably has the most technologically advanced and well-trained military in the world - That wasn't the case in 1971-3 (When they were facing [I]8[/I] standing armies; The military capabilities of their current adversaries are nothing in comparison), but it is now. They don't even need half their current capability to maintain security, but I suppose that's not the case when they're also taking over more land. Don't want the I"D"F getting stretched thin now, do we?
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136869]How am I wrong about this? I'm a practicing member of the religion and heavily involved in the culture but apparently I'm wrong because you say so?[/QUOTE]
Religion is a joke anyway, I can't believe anyone actually fall for such mumbo jumbo about how some big fart in the air suddenly created everything.
How about we let people believe what they want to believe when it comes to religion instead of policing it or calling them dumb for believing in it.
[QUOTE=EnlightenDead;50137238]How about we let people believe what they want to believe when it comes to religion instead of policing it or calling them dumb for believing in it.[/QUOTE]
Or we can let people believe what they want to believe AND call them dumb for believing in it.
[QUOTE=KonorB;50137214]Religion is a joke anyway, I can't believe anyone actually fall for such mumbo jumbo about how some big fart in the air suddenly created everything.[/QUOTE]
great job reducing over 4000 years of theology with a single smug sentence, you're so much smarter than anyone who believes/d in reLIEgion
The main position that I have is that Bernie Sanders is bad for Jewish interests, the primary being protecting Israel. He keeps company with people who are anti-semitic and doesn't act like a Jew.
Regarding Israel and Gaza, the Palestinians voted Hamas, a terrorist organization, into power. If they had elected a peaceful government, I would guarantee you that Israel wouldn't attack Gaza.
expanding on keeping company with anti semites;
you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps and when he brags about being supported by someone with strong ties to anti semitic organizations, it should be concerning. He also counts the King of Jordan as a hero of his but this King of Jordan is extremely against LGBT rights and doesn't allow Jews to pray in his country or bring in any religious items.
So far, one of those Jewish interests is maintaining a constant occupation of the West Bank so i'm glad Sanders is against that. Then again, you are acting as if all Jewish/Israeli interest are morally right.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50137281]you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps and when he brags about being supported by someone with strong ties to anti semitic organizations, it should be concerning. He also counts the King of Jordan as a hero of his but this King of Jordan is extremely against LGBT rights and doesn't allow Jews to pray in his country or bring in any religious items.[/QUOTE]
Didn't we debunk the whole "guilt by association" fallacy you keep referring to?
You can consider someone a hero for a specific aspect of their being and yet not agree with other parts of their philosophy. I can say that I admire Genghis Khan but not support the massacre of civilians throughout Asia.
Are you seriously implying that Bernie, if he were elected, would suddenly turn out to be anti-LGBT and anti-religious on the basis that he considers the King of Jordan a hero?
Then again, I'm responding to someone who bases their entire political leanings on the blind support of Israel simply because they're Jewish. So I'm asking a lot of you, I'm aware.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50137281]
The main position that I have is that Bernie Sanders is bad for Jewish interests, the primary being protecting Israel. He keeps company with people who are anti-semitic and doesn't act like a Jew.
[/QUOTE]
Because the IDF will crumble into dust if they stop receiving that fat $3bn paycheck (20% of their annual budget) courtesy of the US taxpayer, and would be completely incapable of defending its self despite having the one of the highest proportions of population in military service and as reserves.
[quote]Regarding Israel and Gaza, the Palestinians voted Hamas, a terrorist organization, into power. If they had elected a peaceful government, I would guarantee you that Israel wouldn't attack Gaza.[/quote]
I would guarantee that a peaceful Palestinian government wouldn't make anti-Zionist sentiment disappear in Palestine, nor would the channels through which weapons and support are received by those who hold that sentiment closest to heart and act on it.
[quote]
expanding on keeping company with anti semites;
you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps and when he brags about being supported by someone with strong ties to anti semitic organizations, it should be concerning.
[/quote]
Here's the first quote I saw from Ellison in skimming wikipedia; "The people who have a strong sympathy for the Israeli position... dominate the conversation. And it’s really not politically safe to say, look, there are two sides to this, and Israel has not been an angel in this, and certainly there have been people on the Palestinian side who have not contributed to a constructive solution."
Acknowledging that the Palestinians are getting the really shitty end of the stick =/= anti-semitism. Of course political groups that denounce Israel are going to most likely be ones that sympathise with Palestinians and are therefore the most expedient route to actually doing something about it.
[QUOTE=maxspeed3006;50137335]So far, one of those Jewish interests is maintaining a constant occupation of the West Bank so i'm glad Sanders is against that. Then again, you are acting as if all Jewish/Israeli interest are morally right.[/QUOTE]
Zionism in a nutshell
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136947]You do realize that being Jewish is an ethnic and religious thing? You can be ethnically Jewish without being religious. However, even the ethnic Jews without any connection to the religion do some religious things because it's integrated into the culture. There is absolutely no way for Bernie Sanders to be a religious Jew without going to a shul for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.[/QUOTE]
You don't get to determine that for other people.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50133350]
So? This isn't anti-Semitic, I'm Jewish as well[/QUOTE]
Under this logic according to what you said Bernie isn't anti-Semitic as well.
[QUOTE=EnlightenDead;50137045]Sorry bud, if a Jewish guy says he's religiously Jewish, I'm gonna believe him. Its not my place, or yours to determine if this guy is religious enough. His religion and how he practices it is his business, not yours.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't really matter either since religion and politics should just be kept from each other.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136869]There's no easy answer for if capitalists should be in charge or socialists and I'd need a degree in economics to even start on that question but I'm worried that the mild socialism that Bernie is advocating might lead to worse forms of socialism.[/QUOTE]
In a country so historically anti socialist? Not likely.
It hasn't happened over here yet, despite the fact that one of our parties is pretty close to communism
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50137281]He doesn't act like a Jew.[/QUOTE]
why are you listing this as a bad thing
(not that being jewish is bad duh)
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50136947]You do realize that being Jewish is an ethnic and religious thing? You can be ethnically Jewish without being religious. However, even the ethnic Jews without any connection to the religion do some religious things because it's integrated into the culture. There is absolutely no way for Bernie Sanders to be a religious Jew without going to a shul for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying because I am ethnically Mexican that i'm not ACTUALLY Mexican because I don't partake in the day of the dead, cinco de mayo, our independance day, or revolution day?
AND another thing! Bernie once bought a hot dog from a [I]communist!!!![/I]
[QUOTE=ZenZill;50131982]More like Pope Francis [I]misleads[/I] a billion people.[/QUOTE]
Easy up on that edge there.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;50137375]Didn't we debunk the whole "guilt by association" fallacy you keep referring to?
You can consider someone a hero for a specific aspect of their being and yet not agree with other parts of their philosophy. I can say that I admire Genghis Khan but not support the massacre of civilians throughout Asia.
Are you seriously implying that Bernie, if he were elected, would suddenly turn out to be anti-LGBT and anti-religious on the basis that he considers the King of Jordan a hero?
Then again, I'm responding to someone who bases their entire political leanings on the blind support of Israel simply because they're Jewish. So I'm asking a lot of you, I'm aware.[/QUOTE]
I'm not implying that bernie would turn out to be anti LGBT and anti religious. I'm saying that the company a person chooses to keep is something worth noting. When you admire a person for their accomplishments, you have to admire what they did in order to achieve their goals. For example, you admire Genghis Khan but say that you don't admire his killing of civilians. Genghis's killing of civilians was a central part of his strategy and without his killing civilians, he would be an obscure unifier of some nomadic tribes in Mongolia at best.
[editline]15th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=QuinnithXD;50137435]So you're saying because I am ethnically Mexican that i'm not ACTUALLY Mexican because I don't partake in the day of the dead, cinco de mayo, our independance day, or revolution day?[/QUOTE]
That's different because it's a cultural thing tied to a country, not an ethnicreligious group. There's no 2000 year history of a scattered people all celebrating these cinco de mayo or the other holidays.
[editline]15th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=maxspeed3006;50137335]So far, one of those Jewish interests is maintaining a constant occupation of the West Bank so i'm glad Sanders is against that. Then again, you are acting as if all Jewish/Israeli interest are morally right.[/QUOTE]
You mean the land we won fairly in the 1967 with a legally perfect preemptive strike that also was the place where the Jewish kingdom of Yisrael ruled? Shomron was the capital of that kingdom and Jews have strong ties to that land.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50138286]I'm not implying that bernie would turn out to be anti LGBT and anti religious. I'm saying that the company a person chooses to keep is something worth noting. [B]When you admire a person for their accomplishments, you have to admire what they did in order to achieve their goals.[/B] For example, you admire Genghis Khan but say that you don't admire his killing of civilians. Genghis's killing of civilians was a central part of his strategy and without his killing civilians, he would be an obscure unifier of some nomadic tribes in Mongolia at best.[/QUOTE]
this is simply not true. you can admire someone's position on one thing and not another. you can admire someone's intentions and hate their methods. this is not an unheard of concept
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50138286]that also was the place where the Jewish kingdom of Yisrael ruled? Shomron was the capital of that kingdom and Jews have strong ties to that land.[/QUOTE]
Lol you can't cite a de jure claim to the west bank based off of pre-hellenistic kingdom. By that logic no boundaries that exist currently in any countries are legal.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50138416]Lol you can't cite a de jure claim to the west bank based off of pre-hellenistic kingdom.[/QUOTE]
Which is why I also said that we won the land fairly from Jordan.
[editline]15th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50138398]this is simply not true. you can admire someone's position on one thing and not another. you can admire someone's intentions and hate their methods. this is not an unheard of concept[/QUOTE]
Okay, so let's use Genghis Khan's intentions as something to judge him by. Genghis Khan wanted to conquer the known world and sack it. While people can point to his being religiously tolerant as a good thing, it's actually not as benign as it sounds. Genghis Khan required people to pray for his success if they wanted to keep on practicing their own religion.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50138425]Which is why I also said that we won the land fairly from Jordan.
[editline]15th April 2016[/editline]
Okay, so let's use Genghis Khan's intentions as something to judge him by. Genghis Khan wanted to conquer the known world and sack it. While people can point to his being religiously tolerant as a good thing, it's actually not as benign as it sounds. Genghis Khan required people to pray for his success if they wanted to keep on practicing their own religion.[/QUOTE]
Again, you're taking things from 1963(Unlike the David Duke thing which was, you know, fucking recent) and exaggerating them to a full on dishonest level. You're saying that the association 50 years ago, is so vital, and critical to Bernies character as a person, that you've written him off.
Purely dishonest.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50138451]Again, you're taking things from 1963(Unlike the David Duke thing which was, you know, fucking recent) and exaggerating them to a full on dishonest level. You're saying that the association 50 years ago, is so vital, and critical to Bernies character as a person, that you've written him off.
Purely dishonest.[/QUOTE]
Where does 1963 come from? Look at this:
[URL="http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/keith-ellison-hands-bernie-sanders-his-second-congressional-endorsment"]http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/keith-ellison-hands-bernie-sanders-his-second-congressional-endorsment[/URL]
[QUOTE]Sen. Bernie Sanders will get a pre-debate boost from Rep. Keith Ellison, the co-chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, who will become the second member of Congress to endorse Sanders’ insurgent presidential campaign Monday, he told MSNBC.[/QUOTE]
In 1993, Keith Elliot appeared on stage with Khalid Muhammad while Muhammad went on an anti-Semitic rant.
Compare that to David Duke, who explicitly said that he wasn't supporting Trump and never had personal contact with trump.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;50138507]Where does 1963 come from? Look at this:
[URL="http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/keith-ellison-hands-bernie-sanders-his-second-congressional-endorsment"]http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/keith-ellison-hands-bernie-sanders-his-second-congressional-endorsment[/URL]
In 1993, Keith Elliot appeared on stage with Khalid Muhammad while Muhammad went on an anti-Semitic rant.
Compare that to David Duke, who explicitly said that he wasn't supporting Trump and never had personal contact with trump.[/QUOTE]
Oh no, 1993, suddenly that's so much more character compromising isn't it? Wait no it's still not because [B]guilt by association is still bullshit.[/B]
David Duke has specifically said he's 100% for Trump, prior to realizing that a white supremacist endorsement wasn't going to help Trump win. So he revoked it, but still supports him. And the issue was, not that David Duke did that. The issue was with how Trump responded.
Now I'll wait for your inevitable spin of Trumps actions into being reasonable when they were in fact, not reasonable.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50138527]Oh no, 1993, suddenly that's so much more character compromising isn't it? Wait no it's still not because [B]guilt by association is still bullshit.[/B]
David Duke has specifically said he's 100% for Trump, prior to realizing that a white supremacist endorsement wasn't going to help Trump win. So he revoked it, but still supports him. And the issue was, not that David Duke did that. The issue was with how Trump responded.
Now I'll wait for your inevitable spin of Trumps actions into being reasonable when they were in fact, not reasonable.[/QUOTE]
What duke actually said:
[QUOTE]“Voting for these people [Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz], voting against Donald Trump at this point is really treason to your heritage. I’m not saying I endorse everything about Trump, in fact I haven’t formally endorsed him. But I do support his candidacy, and I support voting for him as a strategic action. I hope he does everything we hope he will do.”
[/QUOTE]
What Trump said in response:
[QUOTE]Question: “How do you feel about the recent endorsement from David Duke?”
Trump: “I didn’t even know he endorsed me. David Duke endorsed me? Okay, all right. I disavow, okay?”[/QUOTE]
You're jumping on trump for the same thing that you scold me for doing.
[B]There is a reason that a proverb like, a man is known by the company he keeps, is present in almost every culture. When you have the endorsement of an anti-semite and he's one of the first to endorse you, it's extremely concerning. [/B] If you had a black candidate who had the support of the KKK, you wouldn't be concerned?
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