• Bernie Sanders's Religious Test for Christians in Public Office
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[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52335672]If someone says that their religion is better than other religions then they're an ass[/QUOTE] Every single religion bases its existence on the fact that they believe their religion is the correct one and that the others are therefore incorrect. [QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52335672]Sure let's strawman that conversation. Reword your point and I'll be happy to argue it.[/QUOTE] Please don't accuse me of strawmanning when this pretty little thing is just a few posts up: [QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52334522]Person 1: "Muslims are terrible at religion and worshipping god. Muslims do not know god." Person 2: "That's pretty islamophobic. People intolerant of other religions shouldn't hold public office." Person 1: "I disagree" Atlantic Journalist: "BERNIE SANDERS'S RELIGIOUS TEST FOR CHRISTIANS IN PUBLIC OFFICE, MORE AT 11" [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Aztec;52335735]Sgman doesn't equate believing people who disagree with your worldview are destined for eternal damnation in the firey pits of hell to be a flaw in judgement and that is why this thread in 7 pages long.[/QUOTE] Have you ever met a Christian person before? [editline]10th June 2017[/editline] Or even just a religious person in general? You guys have to be trolling or stupid to not understand this. The foundation of most monotheistic religions is that either you believe in and devote yourself to the one true God, or you're damned and condemned. Religious people are entirely capable of believing this while simultaneously loving and respecting non-believers. Like I said previously (and which was curiously ignored so you all could jerk each other off and pat yourselves on the back for ganging up on a fictitious version of sgman), my own grandmother is an example of this separation of beliefs. She believes that if I don't find salvation in Christ, I will go to hell. That doesn't mean she hates me for fuck sake. Use your brains. [editline]10th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=KingofBeast;52335350]I think the confusion here is between the words "intolerance" and "disagreement". Everyone who is in a religion probably believes that their religion is correct. As is the case with Vought. [B]Since most of Islam also holds the belief that non-believers are condemned to eternity in Hell, would you be willing to say they're intolerant of other religions as well[/B]?[/QUOTE] This is what's so hilarious about the mental gymnastics going on in this thread. In a desperate attempt to fight Islamophobia, people are condemning a Christian for believing in a principle that also constitutes the core of Islam.
[QUOTE=srobins;52335844]my own grandmother is an example of this separation of beliefs. She believes that if I don't find salvation in Christ, I will go to hell. That doesn't mean she hates me for fuck sake[/QUOTE] I'm in the same situation with my wife. Yet [I]somehow[/I] I don't think she's a shitty person or a cunt as a result of her views! :v:
[QUOTE=srobins;52335844]Have you ever met a Christian person before? [editline]10th June 2017[/editline] Or even just a religious person in general? You guys have to be trolling or stupid to not understand this. The foundation of most monotheistic religions is that either you believe in and devote yourself to the one true God, or you're damned and condemned. Religious people are entirely capable of believing this while simultaneously loving and respecting non-believers. Like I said previously (and which was curiously ignored so you all could jerk each other off and pat yourselves on the back for ganging up on a fictitious version of sgman), my own grandmother is an example of this separation of beliefs. She believes that if I don't find salvation in Christ, I will go to hell. That doesn't mean she hates me for fuck sake. Use your brains.[/QUOTE]Your grandmother not hating means next to nothing because you're family. And that doesn't even work for all families. There are numerous stories of kids being thrown out of their homes for religious disagreements with their parents. So maybe count yourself lucky instead of the standard. Keep in mind that in this country being an atheist is one of the worst things you can be if trying to hold any political office. Last I recall rapists were looked better upon for political office. [QUOTE]This is what's so hilarious about the mental gymnastics going on in this thread. In a desperate attempt to fight Islamophobia, people are condemning a Christian for believing in a principle that also constitutes the core of Islam.[/QUOTE]It has been said before by others, but you're pointing out a hypocrisy that doesn't exist because I don't think anyone is defending it there either.
[QUOTE=KingofBeast;52335812]Every single religion bases its existence on the fact that they believe their religion is the correct one and that the others are therefore incorrect.[/quote] See the issue with that is that not everyone believes that their religion is the one true religion. There are plenty of religious people, including christians, who believe that every religion is a path to salvation. I hope you're not implying just because someone follows one god, it means that they think the other gods are invalid. That's a fallacy as well as a pretty bad generalization to make on religious people. [quote]Please don't accuse me of strawmanning when this pretty little thing is just a few posts up:[/QUOTE] Okay. That was strawmanning in the sense that I didn't have time to write down their complex argument. I admit my fault. How does that change the fact that you strawmanned?
[QUOTE=srobins;52335844]This is what's so hilarious about the mental gymnastics going on in this thread. In a desperate attempt to fight Islamophobia, people are condemning a Christian for believing in a principle that also constitutes the core of Islam.[/QUOTE] Could you have any less of a clue? This has nothing to do with islam or with christianity [I]specifically[/I]. The topic at hand is "People who follow a certain religion and are influenced by it in a way that makes non-believers inferior in their eyes are not fit for office". Then a specific instance of this concept is a christian legislator believing muslim are condemned to eternal damnation. But this is just a specific [I]instance[/I]. Had he been the other way around, there would still be a problem. If christians believe that non-believers are subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them. If muslims believe that non-believers are subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them. If anybody believes that not believing in their arbitrary fairy tale spiritual system makes them subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52336046]Could you have any less of a clue? This has nothing to do with islam or with christianity [I]specifically[/I]. The topic at hand is "People who follow a certain religion and are influenced by it in a way that makes non-believers inferior in their eyes are not fit for office". Then a specific instance of this concept is a christian legislator believing muslim are condemned to eternal damnation. But this is just a specific [I]instance[/I]. Had he been the other way around, there would still be a problem. If christians believe that non-believers are subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them. If muslims believe that non-believers are subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them. If anybody believes that not believing in their arbitrary fairy tale spiritual system makes them subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them.[/QUOTE] First off, I totally didn't mean to star you. This has nothing to do with "sub-human" so get out of here with that conjecture. But onto another point, I would hope that you would expect Bernie to grill a Muslim exactly the same way if a situation arises like this with one.
[QUOTE=srobins;52335844]My own grandmother is an example of this separation of beliefs. She believes that if I don't find salvation in Christ, I will go to hell. That doesn't mean she hates me for fuck sake. Use your brains.[/QUOTE] That's nice, but there are religious parents who do terrible things to their children precisely because of the mechanism I described earlier. They believe they know better than them and because they love them, they do what they think is best for their salvation. Parents who tried to "cure" their child's homosexuality, for instance, didn't hate their child. It's just that their fucked up beliefs led them to hurt a person they love. I really don't get how it's a hard concept to understand that a belief [I]that is specifically designed to entice followers to impose their faith to people they love[/I] can lead to religious people doing just that. You people talking about hate are beside the point, it's the exact opposite that happens.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52336046]Could you have any less of a clue? This has nothing to do with islam or with christianity [I]specifically[/I]. The topic at hand is "People who follow a certain religion and are influenced by it in a way that makes non-believers inferior in their eyes are not fit for office". Then a specific instance of this concept is a christian legislator believing muslim are condemned to eternal damnation. But this is just a specific [I]instance[/I]. Had he been the other way around, there would still be a problem. If christians believe that non-believers are subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them. If muslims believe that non-believers are subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them. If anybody believes that not believing in their arbitrary fairy tale spiritual system makes them subhuman, they're cunts, fuck them.[/QUOTE] So you take a theological disagreement, of which many people can keep separate from their professional lives and personal relationships, and use it to justify stripping millions of people of their rights? Should we also deport them also? Bernie made it pretty clear he didn't think people believing in exclusivism are what the country is about. [QUOTE=_Axel;52336100]That's nice, but there are religious parents who do terrible things to their children precisely because of the mechanism I described earlier. They believe they know better than them and because they love them, they do what they think is best for their salvation. Parents who tried to "cure" their child's homosexuality, for instance, didn't hate their child. It's just that their fucked up beliefs led them to hurt a person they love. I really don't get how it's a hard concept to understand that a belief [I]that is specifically designed to entice followers to impose their faith to people they love[/I] can lead to religious people doing just that. You people talking about hate are beside the point, it's the exact opposite that happens.[/QUOTE] We can ban from office pretty much everyone with "extremist" (LMAO) moral views using your logic. Like Marxists and socialists, you know the ones that preach about how right they are and how they know how to fix societies ills, we even have examples of torture, murder and violence being used to convert people to their viewpoints. It's like where Archangel was arguing the Billionaires can have political war waged on them because they are the bad guys because his moral beliefs justify it. Why should I be be free from only attempts at religious conversion but not moral or political ones? The latter crop up far, far, far more often the the former.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;52336216]We can ban from office pretty much everyone with "extremist" (LMAO) moral views using your logic. Like Marxists and socialists, you know the ones that preach about how right they are and how they know how to fix societies ills, we even have examples of torture, murder and violence being used to convert people to their viewpoints. It's like where Archangel was arguing the Billionaires can have political war waged on them because they are the bad guys because his moral beliefs justify it. Why should I be be free from only attempts at religious conversion but not moral or political ones? The latter crop up far, far, far more often the the former.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but what the hell does that have to do with my point? Where have I said we should ban religious people? People keep insisting believing non-believers go to hell has no incidence on how they treat said persons. I disagree and show why that isn't the case.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52336053] I would hope that you would expect Bernie to grill a Muslim exactly the same way if a situation arises like this with one.[/QUOTE] Bernie has proved himself to be a coherent person, so obviously I expect him he would. As far as the subhuman part goes, I honestly don't understand how you could truly believe somebody deserves eternal damnation without also believing they are less than human, unless you're in some deep doublethinking.
Honestly, if it were up to me, Religion and Government would have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Religion has proven time and time again throughout history to influence peoples decisions pretty heavily. I find it absurd that in 2017 we find it acceptable to have politicians and public servants who could potentially have their decisions/actions motivated by religious beliefs. Maybe/probably a controversial opinion, but I find it strange that society considers it acceptable for politicians to be guided by (again, controversial) an imaginary being. I have no problem with people who choose a life of faith - that is their option and they are well within their rights to do so and I respect that. My family is Christian, and I grew up Christian - but I do not think these beliefs should have [B]anything [/B] to do with the way our countries are run, regardless of whether it has ill effects or positive benefits.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52336368]Bernie has proved himself to be a coherent person, so obviously I expect him he would. As far as the subhuman part goes, I honestly don't understand how you could truly believe somebody deserves eternal damnation without also believing they are less than human, unless you're in some deep doublethinking.[/QUOTE] Because to them it is an equally created person before god, but a soul to redeem. It really isn't that hard to figure out that, no, condemnation is not the same as Eugenics. Oherwise we would see Hitler calling on scripture all the time to justify what he was doing probably.
Whatever the common beliefs in a religion, for a politician to be so strong a believer that he makes public statements about them, or publishes works with those statements therein, disqualifies him.
[QUOTE=archangel125;52336549]Whatever the common beliefs in a religion, for a politician to be so strong a believer that he makes public statements about them, or publishes works with those statements therein, disqualifies him.[/QUOTE] How is this anything less than true bigotry against religion? I'm generally very cautious at making accusations like that, but I can't think of any alternatives. To think that any person who publicly speaks about the entire category of religion ought to be disqualified is simply bigotry and intolerance towards a view that you don't understand. It's like a Christian person saying that gay people shouldn't be allowed to show affection in public. It has no rational basis.
Atheists are already politically barred from office by the effects of the US's public mentality about atheists. Atheists are considered worse people than rapists, but make up 16% of the population. No ones saying deport people. No ones saying strip them of their rights. Ben, you're strawmanning to the high fucking heavans right now.
I like that every single person who has a problem with Bernie continues to bring up "if the tables were turned" despite almost every person in this thread saying it wouldn't matter if it were a Muslim. How many more times are we going to bring it up? [editline]10th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=srobins;52333544]You can't seriously get upset with me for not taking your random anecdotes seriously[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=srobins;52333544] my own grandmother is an example of this separation of beliefs. She believes that if I don't find salvation in Christ, I will go to hell. That doesn't mean she hates me for fuck sake. Use your brains. [/QUOTE] [quote]my own grandmother[/quote] [quote] random anecdotes[/quote]
[QUOTE=Aztec;52337238]I like that every single person who has a problem with Bernie continues to bring up "if the tables were turned" despite almost every person in this thread saying it wouldn't matter if it were a Muslim. How many more times are we going to bring it up? [editline]10th June 2017[/editline][/QUOTE] First Bernie wouldn't ask a Muslim such a question because it would kill his Sjw/Muslim support. His support doesn't come from devout christians so why care even care to understand why people think this way. And the answer would be most likely the same or worse of he did ask a devout Muslim on the issue. Islam takes salvation and condemnation far more seriously over Christianity. There is a reason most muslims take apostates so seriously that it might as well be a death sentence to leave the religion.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52337321]First Bernie wouldn't ask a Muslim such a question because it would kill his social justice support, and the answer would be most likely the same or worse. Islam takes salvation and condemnation far more seriously over Christianity. There is a reason most muslims take apostates so seriously that it might as well be a death sentence to leave the religion.[/QUOTE] Nah I think he would and you are just projecting your right wing opinion of him. Unless you have some evidence to suggest otherwise.
the thing about believing in magic damnation is that even if you say you dont think the damned are lesser people, its either a fuckin lie or you're dumb as dirt and cant critically think about religion. its intrinsic to the idea if you're going to rationalize god as a just being worth worshiping. and if you don't believe that baseline, that god is worth worshiping because it is just, then youre a fraud christian who wants a get out of hell free card. "i dont hate gays myself, god just told me to stone em" "i dont judge those outside my religion, god just does so really harshly for some reason im only along for the ride." thus the buck was passeth
[QUOTE=Tudd;52337321]First Bernie wouldn't ask a Muslim such a question because it would kill his Sjw/Muslim support. His support doesn't come from devout christians so why care even care to understand why people think this way. And the answer would be most likely the same or worse of he did ask a devout Muslim on the issue. Islam takes salvation and condemnation far more seriously over Christianity. There is a reason most muslims take apostates so seriously that it might as well be a death sentence to leave the religion.[/QUOTE] This argument is pointlessly hypothetical.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52337337]This argument is pointlessly hypothetical.[/QUOTE] Continues to be a main talking point for some reason. Even if it were true that he would treat Muslims differently, that would be the wrong call. But this would still be the right call.
bonus post imagine trying to claim you dont think less of the people you perceive to be on the wrong side of the ultimate battle over good vs evil in this universe and that it wouldnt affect your judgement in a political office
[QUOTE=Aztec;52337326]Nah I think he would and you are just projecting your right wing opinion of him. Unless you have some evidence to suggest otherwise.[/QUOTE] He should just ask Keith Ellison who he partners up with the same test. Keith Ellison is religious and has said, “only Allah knows who is going to win." Which already heavily implies a certain level of salvation he believes in. But I'm sure Bernie hasn't put him to the test. Plus Ellison already has views on Israel and from his past that people should ask more about to see how he has changed for the better or not really at all. [editline]10th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Aztec;52337342]Continues to be a main talking point for some reason. Even if it were true that he would treat Muslims differently, that would be the wrong call. But this would still be the right call.[/QUOTE] It still isn't the right call. Bernie is actually the bigot here ironically cause he can't seem to understand that religious people have served public office with similar views throughout all of US History without infringing rights of others. Democrat and Republican alike.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52337367]He should just ask Keith Ellison who he partners up with the same test. Keith Ellison is religious and has said, “only Allah knows who is going to win." Which already heavily implies a certain level of salvation he believes in. But I'm sure Bernie hasn't put him to the test. Plus he already has views on Israel and from his past that people should ask more about to see how he has changed for the better or not really at all.[/QUOTE] Did Bernie have the ability to confirm or deny Keith Ellison? And a second point, has Keith explicitly written on Islam? You seem to be caught up with supporting religious fundamentalists as long as they are on your side of the fence. Which is pretty typical for the ultra right I guess.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52337331]the thing about believing in magic damnation is that even if you say you dont think the damned are lesser people, its either a fuckin lie or you're dumb as dirt and cant critically think about religion. [/QUOTE] I'm afraid that contradiction is baked into the pie. Remember, the basis of Christanity is one text written thousands of years ago by goat herders that says God loves his chosen people so much he needs them to cleanse the holy land of the infidels... whoops, I mean Caananites. Then a couple thousands of years later other people retcon this with this Jesus guy that say "syke, God loves everyone now!" And then finally one guy exiled to a Roman prison island has some weird acid trip where this same Jesus guy forgets the whole "love" message and slaughters all the unbelievers while horseback riding, and then sends every unbeliever in history to eternal damnation. Source: I grew up in this tradition. I also had my doubts from a young age, and it was ultimately the inability to reconcile these very different interpretations of god within the same "holy" scriptures that drove me away. I mean, I always liked this Jesus fellow to some extent, but I never understood why his father in heaven had to be such a cosmic asshole. That's why so many Evangelicals can compartmentalize voting for turds like Trump: they learn to compartmentalize things from a very young age, and if they make it through the first thirty years of life without becoming an apostate, they're usually set for life. There's a word for this: its called apologetics.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52337321]First Bernie wouldn't ask a Muslim such a question because it would kill his Sjw/Muslim support. His support doesn't come from devout christians so why care even care to understand why people think this way. And the answer would be most likely the same or worse of he did ask a devout Muslim on the issue. Islam takes salvation and condemnation far more seriously over Christianity. There is a reason most muslims take apostates so seriously that it might as well be a death sentence to leave the religion.[/QUOTE] Unlike the sorry excuse of a rotten tangerine you call a president, Bernie doesn't act to stroke his own ego and appease fringe fanatics, so yeah I am sure that if the occasion ever arose Bernie would tear this hypothetical muslim representative a new one.
[QUOTE=Aztec;52337376]Did Bernie have the ability to confirm or deny Keith Ellison? And a second point, has Keith explicitly written on Islam? You seem to be caught up with supporting religious fundamentalists as long as they are on your side of the fence. Which is pretty typical for the ultra right I guess.[/QUOTE] Actually I prefer people not to use religion as their reasoning for policies, but I'm not an idiot to start suggesting the practice of religious tests to confirm or deny a person from a position. Their actions and evidence to show their policies are unfair is what matters. I expected this limited view on religion from /r/Atheism.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52337386]Actually I prefer people not to use religion as their reasoning for policies, but I'm not an idiot to start suggesting the practice of religious tests to confirm or deny a person from a position. Their actions and evidence to show their policies are unfair is what matters. I expected this limited view on religion from /r/Atheism.[/QUOTE] Religious test is a buzzword. He simply didn't want to confirm a religious fundamentalist. Your character attacks are weak.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52337386]Actually I prefer people not to use religion as their reasoning for policies, but I'm not an idiot to start suggesting the practice of religious tests to confirm or deny a person from a position. I expected this limited view on religion from /r/Atheism.[/QUOTE] This is NOT a religious test, it's at worst a bias test. Ignore for a second why the dude said what he said, and focus on what he said, which came down to "People who disagree with me deserve to be painfully tortured for all of eternity". It doesn't matter if he said it because of his religion or not, he said it, and thus her is unfit from office.
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