Scientists offer quantum theory of soul's existence.
89 replies, posted
The thing is, personality, you, are due to the organic structure of the brain, as well as the journey of life.
If someone gets brain damage, they can change as a person.
In this sense, once your essence leaves the physical structure of the brain, it could and would ultimately be a completely different being.
[QUOTE=cyanidem;38266152]The thing is, personality, you, are due to the organic structure of the brain, as well as the journey of life.
If someone gets brain damage, they can change as a person.
In this sense, once your essence leaves the physical structure of the brain, it could and would ultimately be a completely different being.[/QUOTE]
Except for the part about your essence leaving your physical form, cause you know, it's bullshit.
Everything you are is a product of genetics and your environment, there is no ethereal aspect to it, it's just a lump of sentient, sapient, self aware meat.
[QUOTE=cyanidem;38266152]The thing is, personality, you, are due to the organic structure of the brain, as well as the journey of life.
If someone gets brain damage, they can change as a person.
In this sense, once your essence leaves the physical structure of the brain, it could and would ultimately be a completely different being.[/QUOTE]
only with the help of the quantum crystal dolphin will you ever return to neurospace, or as the lesser humans call it.... reality
i know this because it's [i]scientific fact[/i]
Almost every single person in this thread is woefully uninformed about the topic at hand but still commenting like they even understand what's being said (a three line summary in a popular science publication doesn't count as understanding)
[QUOTE=KaIibos;38266333]Almost every single person in this thread is woefully uninformed about the topic at hand but still commenting like they even understand what's being said (a three line summary in a popular science publication doesn't count as understanding)[/QUOTE]
My apologies, why don't you explain it for us, the unenlightened?
These guys spent years working on this idea since 1996, but thank God we have some people here on this internet forum that can analyze it immediately and with such a deep understanding of the subject matter.
[QUOTE=Tigster;38266398]These guys spent years working on this idea since 1996, but thank God we have some people here on this internet forum that can analyze it immediately and with such a deep understanding of the subject matter.[/QUOTE]
No ones disputing the fact that information can't be destroyed, we know that's accurate. What I am disputing personally is this (bolded part, rest is for context):
[quote]The quantum information within the microtubules is not destroyed, it can't be destroyed, it just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large.
[b]"If the patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says 'I had a near death experience'."
In the event of the patient's death, it was "possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body indefinitely - as a soul".[/b][/quote]
Do you know what the term for that is? It's called a Deus Ex Machina, and until they logic and reasoning behind it is peer reviewed, and has a sizable amount of evidence behind it, it's gonna remain a Deus Ex Machina in my eyes.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38266453]No ones disputing the fact that information can't be destroyed, we know that's accurate. What I am disputing personally is this (bolded part, rest is for context):
Do you know what the term for that is? It's called a Deus Ex Machina, and until they logic and reasoning behind it is peer reviewed, and has a sizable amount of evidence behind it, it's gonna remain a Deus Ex Machina in my eyes.[/QUOTE]
I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with people coming in and talking like they know as much/more than these guys about this subject matter. It's laughable.
Science: 1
Religion:... Also 1?
[QUOTE=Tigster;38266497]I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with people coming in and talking like they know as much/more than these guys about this subject matter. It's laughable.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's great but you can't just bust out a weird as shit theory or hypothesis like this and expect it to go down well, especially when you bring in the caveat that the brain is supposed to be able to somehow control it's own quantum state [i]after death.[/i]
This is probably what I want them to figure out in my lifetime the most.
[QUOTE=Tigster;38266497]I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with people coming in and talking like they know as much/more than these guys about this subject matter. It's laughable.[/QUOTE]
maybe because it's quantum woo that cannot be proven or disproven
saying "YEAH BUT THEY STUDIED IT LONGER THAN YOU!!" doesn't make it less guesswork than it already is
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38266539]Yeah that's great but you can't just bust out a weird as shit theory or hypothesis like this and expect it to go down well, especially when you bring in the caveat that the brain is supposed to be able to somehow control it's own quantum state [i]after death.[/i][/QUOTE]
I don't know the extent of the actual research. I didn't see a link to it on the article's page, and the article itself does a poor job of explaining what these guys have been doing for 16 years.
[editline]31st October 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bobie;38266576]maybe because it's quantum woo that cannot be proven or disproven
saying "YEAH BUT THEY STUDIED IT LONGER THAN YOU!!" doesn't make it less guesswork than it already is[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with anything. People still study quantum woo and have a better grasp on it than people who don't study quantum woo.
[QUOTE=Tigster;38266579]I don't know the extent of the actual research. I didn't see a link to it on the article's page, and the article itself does a poor job of explaining what these guys have been doing for 16 years.
[editline]31st October 2012[/editline]
What does that have to do with anything. People still study quantum woo and have a better grasp on it than people who don't study quantum woo.[/QUOTE]
how can you have a better grasp on guesswork than someone else
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38266392]My apologies, why don't you explain it for us, the unenlightened?[/QUOTE]
Excuse me? I didn't claim to understand it at all nor did I speculate based on "how it seems." There's too little information in the article to form an objective opinion and the technical goings-on of quantum phenomena are far outside my (and almost everyone's here) understanding
[QUOTE=Tigster;38266579]I don't know the extent of the actual research. I didn't see a link to it on the article's page, and the article itself does a poor job of explaining what these guys have been doing for 16 years.
[editline]31st October 2012[/editline]
What does that have to do with anything. People still study quantum woo and have a better grasp on it than people who don't study quantum woo.[/QUOTE]
Microtubules exist in cells for a short period of time, they help divide the DNA in the cell so that each cell has a copy. Half the shit they claim is that they are present in all/most living organism of all kinds in the form of a cytoskeleton that essentially stops a cell collapsing in on itself.
Another glaring issue with that would be how the hell does the addition of a smaller base unit (in terms of being smaller than a neuron) tell us how consciousness arises? Saying Quantum Mechanics is at play is great and all, but it [i]still[/i] doesn't say shit about how that makes a lump of meat self-aware.
It's a shit "theory" which could probably be something to do with Dr Hammeroff being an anesthesiologist not an expert in the field of neuroscience and Sir Roger Penrose being a physicist and a mathematician.
If they have some sound evidence then I'll start singing a different tune of course, but until I see something more in depth than "SO THERE'S LIKE THESE MICROTUBULES, AND THEY MIGHT BE MAKING THE SIGNALS AND SHIT AND NEURONS MIGHT JUST BE TRANSFERRING THOSE AROUND AND STUFF AND THERE COULD BE SOME QUANTUM MECHANICS TO FILL IN THE GAPS BRO BRO BRO!" I'll be as doubtful as I am right now.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38266720]Microtubules exist in cells for a short period of time, they help divide the DNA in the cell so that each cell has a copy. Half the shit they claim is that they are present in all/most living organism of all kinds in the form of a cytoskeleton that essentially stops a cell collapsing in on itself.
Another glaring issue with that would be how the hell does the addition of a smaller base unit (in terms of being smaller than a neuron) tell us how consciousness arises? Saying Quantum Mechanics is at play is great and all, but it [i]still[/i] doesn't say shit about how that makes a lump of meat self-aware.
It's a shit "theory" which could probably be something to do with Dr Hammeroff being an anesthesiologist not an expert in the field of neuroscience and Sir Roger Penrose being a physicist and a mathematician.
If they have some sound evidence then I'll start singing a different tune of course, but until I see something more in depth than "SO THERE'S LIKE THESE MICROTUBULES, AND THEY MIGHT BE MAKING THE SIGNALS AND SHIT AND NEURONS MIGHT JUST BE TRANSFERRING THOSE AROUND AND STUFF AND THERE COULD BE SOME QUANTUM MECHANICS TO FILL IN THE GAPS BRO BRO BRO!" I'll be as doubtful as I am right now.[/QUOTE]
[quote][B]There's too little information in the article to form an objective opinion[/B][/quote]
[QUOTE=KaIibos;38266738][/QUOTE]
Luckily I have fingers and I used those fingers to check the wilds of the internet, still seems like a tremendous Deus Ex Machina.
[QUOTE=KaIibos;38266738][/QUOTE]
quantum consciousness isn't anything new and news.com.au are not the first people in history to report on it
i don't actually get what your argument is other than "I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT THEREFORE NOBODY DOES!!!"
[QUOTE=Bobie;38266762]quantum consciousness isn't anything new and news.com.au are not the first people in history to report on it
i don't actually get what your argument is other than "I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT THEREFORE NOBODY DOES!!!"[/QUOTE]
yeeaaahh I didn't actually say that I'm saying that most people here are completely ignorant about quantum mechanics and stuff. basically this is speculation without a real understanding of the subject matter (aka ignorance)
[QUOTE=KaIibos;38266800]yeeaaahh I didn't actually say that I'm saying that most people here are completely ignorant about quantum mechanics and stuff. [b]basically this is speculation without a real understanding of the subject matter (aka ignorance)[/b][/QUOTE]
you've pretty much just explained the whole quantum consciousness theory right there
pierrewithahat summed it up perfectly so i'm not going to bother repeating it
[QUOTE=KaIibos;38266800]yeeaaahh I didn't actually say that I'm saying that most people here are completely ignorant about quantum mechanics and stuff. basically this is speculation without a real understanding of the subject matter (aka ignorance)[/QUOTE]
The problem is that this whole theory relies on an unexplained Deus Ex Machina, and even if we get the evidence I doubt it will explain how quantum interaction between molecules in the brain give rise to a self aware chunk of flesh.
As I've said, when I actually see some pretty damn good evidence that this is the case I'll accept it and change my view accordingly but right now hey have fuck all on their side.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38266858]The problem is that this whole theory relies on an unexplained Deus Ex Machina, and even if we get the evidence I doubt it will explain how quantum interaction between molecules in the brain give rise to a self aware chunk of flesh.[/QUOTE]
please either stop using the phrase deus ex machina or elaborate on what you mean by all this being one because it's a juvenile descriptor
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;38266858]As I've said, when I actually see some pretty damn good evidence that this is the case I'll accept it and change my view accordingly but right now hey have fuck all on their side.[/QUOTE]
your summary of it
[quote]"SO THERE'S LIKE THESE MICROTUBULES, AND THEY MIGHT BE MAKING THE SIGNALS AND SHIT AND NEURONS MIGHT JUST BE TRANSFERRING THOSE AROUND AND STUFF AND THERE COULD BE SOME QUANTUM MECHANICS TO FILL IN THE GAPS BRO BRO BRO!"[/quote]
makes me question how well you understand this concept
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;38263202]One branch of sweaty bollocks doesn't ruin the whole tree.[/QUOTE]
See, we call is sweaty bollocks but we said that about plenty of other things in history. It's people who acknowledge and craft new possibilities that move our race forwards. No matter how stupid something may sound you never know, especially when dealing with subject that we know so little about.
[QUOTE=KaIibos;38266907]please either stop using the phrase deus ex machina or elaborate on what you mean by all this being one because it's a juvenile descriptor
your summary of it
makes me question how well you understand this concept[/QUOTE]
It's a god within the machine, they've essentially claimed that the skeletons of cells interact with each other n quantum terms with the actual neurons essentially transporting the "output" signal to other cells so to speak.
The problem arises is how does this work with how our consciousness actually works? Consider this, the cytoskeleton in a cell remains unchanged essentially, it's not made up off random assorted salts and shit like hair is, it's one type of molecule, tubulin. If consciousness arises from quantum interaction between atoms in the cytoskeleton then how do you explain the effect that drugs have? If you would explain it by saying that the drugs effect synapes which (according to my understanding of this theory essentially amplify and transport the output signal from the quantum collapsing) doesn't make any sense since that means that consciousness is reliant on the neurons in the brain, not the cytoskeletons of cells. There's also the highly unlikely idea that the cell is somehow capable of using this quantum collapse/ouput to make the neuron release a very particular complex compound to transport the consciousness so to speak, to another neuron so that the other neurons are all on the same page essentially.
Never mind the fact that it means that any animal with a larger brain than us would thus be somehow more self aware than we are and probably more intelligent.
As I've already said, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong and I'll eat my words but the theory doesn't make any sense to me at all.
[QUOTE=Alcoholocaust;38263190]So. Quantum physics are basically getting as bullshit as any other bullshit religion?[/QUOTE]
Quantum mechanics is a rigorous as any other field. The mystical lack of understanding isn't that no one knows what happens or how it works, but that no one can visualise it.
We have maths that can explain quantum phenomena just fine, but that's all it is, maths. There's no mental visualisation that goes with it, because it's too absurd.
[QUOTE=Mr._N;38259174]I'm actually taking a class on this subject and have read those papers by Penrose and Hameroff. They basically try to cram quantum mechanics into neuroscience but it comes off as ridiculous New Age bullshit, to be honest.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like that awful [I]What the !@#& Do We Know[/I] movie.
[QUOTE=Jookia;38259441]I love how many new age quacks are pushing quantum mechanics as a spiritual thing because it's too complicated for the layman to understand.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of "What The Bleep Do We Know". It was an interesting film until it got to the "You can control the universe simply by thinking differently about it!" parts.
So the 'soul' functions much like cloud storage?
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