UK prisoners lose appeal on right to vote - "a victory for common sense" claims David Cameron - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;42545580]In Canada prisoners got the franchise in the 90's but lost it later.[/QUOTE] They never lost it here, every Canadian citizen can vote. There might be an exception for people convicted of treason or elections fraud like in Germany, I'm not sure.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;42546891]Who gives me inalienable rights? Which authority enforces them? How are they guaranteed? Who decides what rights are? My only answer is my Government which serves the people.[/QUOTE] I'm going to have to agree with and maybe expand on this, because this is something I've had in my chest for a while and I think it's time to let it out: Rights can only be taken away by the being who created these rights. Unless you're willing to believe that there's a supreme being that gave us all these rights that all human beings should have, then the sole providers of rights are other human beings. So if human beings have the power to give each other these rights, then they must also have the power to take those rights away. If rights that can be taken away aren't rights, then by this logic rights don't exist at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be edgy, but if the definition of rights includes the word "inalienable" or "can not be taken away", then I don't think rights exist at all. I don't think they ever truly existed. It would have been cool if they did, I really REALLY wish they did, but unless God suddenly farts into existence and tells us what our rights are, then rights don't exist and likely never will.

if u break the law i dont see how u can expect to recieve full entitlement from it. criminals are people, and citizens, true. they are people and citizens who have intentionally defrauded the country using the rights that they were given. things like voting shouldnt be alloted to people who havee obvious malicious intents for it

[QUOTE=dutch rep;42547007]if u break the law i dont see how u can expect to recieve full entitlement from it. criminals are people, and citizens, true. they are people and citizens who have intentionally defrauded the country using the rights that they were given. things like voting shouldnt be alloted to people who havee obvious malicious intents for it[/QUOTE] a++ misunderstandings of the motivations of criminals in this thread

u dont go to jail by accident, theres a reason they put u there

[QUOTE=Thom12255;42546631]Not under the definition provided by British law.[/QUOTE] Has it occurred to you that the law might be wrong? In the same way that in some countries it is legal to sentence people to death, a lot of people (and iirc the UNHRC) think that is a barbaric violation of peoples human rights. Similarly if a country was to forbid Women from voting it would be nice and legal but most people again would consider it to be a breech of their human rights and their rights in a free democracy. Which leads me to another small point, any country which prevents any segement of its population from voting (be that Women, black people or prisoners etc) is in no way a free and fair society and shouldn't claim to be one.

[QUOTE=Jsm;42547095]Which leads me to another small point, any country which prevents any segement of its population from voting (be that Women, black people or prisoners etc) is in no way a free and fair society and shouldn't claim to be one.[/QUOTE] Explain to me how being either black or a woman (or both) is in any way like being a prisoner. You are not born a prisoner, you can choose to break the law.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;42546993]I'm going to have to agree with and maybe expand on this, because this is something I've had in my chest for a while and I think it's time to let it out: Rights can only be taken away by the being who created these rights. Unless you're willing to believe that there's a supreme being that gave us all these rights that all human beings should have, then the sole providers of rights are other human beings. So if human beings have the power to give each other these rights, then they must also have the power to take those rights away. If rights that can be taken away aren't rights, then by this logic rights don't exist at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be edgy, but if the definition of rights includes the word "inalienable" or "can not be taken away", then I don't think rights exist at all. I don't think they ever truly existed. It would have been cool if they did, I really REALLY wish they did, but unless God suddenly farts into existence and tells us what our rights are, then rights don't exist and likely never will.[/QUOTE] this is kinda what i was trying to say. my whole point was don't call them rights if they arent actually rights. governments can create LEGAL rights, but they should be honest and call them privileges because that's basically what they are. [editline]16th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Matriax;42547187]Explain to me how being either black or a woman (or both) is in any way like being a prisoner. You are not born a prisoner, you can choose to break the law.[/QUOTE] circumstances can force someone into crime to survive.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42547228]circumstances can force someone into crime to survive.[/QUOTE] Yeah, not really the same is it, in any way shape or form. We are not saying people born in certain ways cannot vote, that is absolutely not what is being said here. I am saying that people who break the law of a country they are in should expect to have some freedoms removed, and I think voting is a good one.

[QUOTE=Matriax;42547465]Yeah, not really the same is it, in any way shape or form. We are not saying people born in certain ways cannot vote, that is absolutely not what is being said here. I am saying that people who break the law of a country they are in should expect to have some freedoms removed, and I think voting is a good one.[/QUOTE] Let's look at the issue from a slightly different perspective. The average prison sentence length in England and Wales is about 9 months or so, which is a fair amount shorter than the time between elections. Is it really still that fair? Why exactly is voting a good one? Surely with an average sentence length that's that short, people should have a right to vote for who will be in power, because it will most likely affect them once they are out?

[QUOTE=Matriax;42547465]Yeah, not really the same is it, in any way shape or form. We are not saying people born in certain ways cannot vote, that is absolutely not what is being said here. I am saying that people who break the law of a country they are in should expect to have some freedoms removed, and I think voting is a good one.[/QUOTE] why how is that beneficial

[QUOTE=Matriax;42547465]Yeah, not really the same is it, in any way shape or form. We are not saying people born in certain ways cannot vote, that is absolutely not what is being said here. I am saying that people who break the law of a country they are in should expect to have some freedoms removed, and I think voting is a good one.[/QUOTE] But the laws are determined by voting, and whether you can vote would be determined by following the law. So you've just given the majority a system by which to disenfranchise those who don't agree.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42547228]this is kinda what i was trying to say. my whole point was don't call them rights if they arent actually rights. governments can create LEGAL rights, but they should be honest and call them privileges because that's basically what they are. [/QUOTE] Well maybe if you get a job as a dictionary editor, then you can change the meaning of "right" tell and tell everyone they have to call it privilege.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;42548193]Well maybe if you get a job as a dictionary editor, then you can change the meaning of "right" tell and tell everyone they have to call it privilege.[/QUOTE] do i have to explain this to you like you're a fucking child? please tell me the difference between a right and a privilege

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42548415]do i have to explain this to you like you're a fucking child? please tell me the difference between a right and a privilege[/QUOTE] Maybe where you should point to me where in the definition of "right" the legal definition is excluded.

Imo, if it is a violent crime (such as murder), then privileges lost - otherwise, vote.

[QUOTE=Scot;42543651]Yeah I'm sure prisoners read The Guardian and watch The Sunday Politics Show.[/QUOTE] Being aware of the world around you doesn't require doing either of those.

[QUOTE=zombini;42542909]You can't vote in prison in the US either.[/QUOTE] If they could, politicians would have to worry about humane treatement for prisonners, which I think would be great. But considering prisonners tend to be poor, non-WASP people, fat chance they'll get that right; it would kill the republican party.

[QUOTE=PulpedFiction;42542945]I can't vote if I've been caught for a crime but what about if I'm a successful criminal who's so far evaded the law?[/QUOTE] Then you're politician or lobbyist.

[QUOTE=The mouse;42545817]Or Far left morons like you. Other people have different opinions to you that are perfectly valid. Deal with it.[/QUOTE] That's right, fight stupid with stupid, atta boy.