"I think women have vaginas; I think you call a person with a vagina a woman." Penny Arcade's Gabe s
1,221 replies, posted
[QUOTE=innerfire34;41117266]but i dont know a central part of the rest of the arguments im hearing are that it isn't a mental illness, like autism, so why should we treat it like one?[/QUOTE]
We're not, that's why there's hormonal treatments and sometimes surgeries. It's not a mental illness because it's not your mind thats fucking up for the most part. It's hormones and genes.
Gabe has the right of it though.
Transgenders make up such a ridiculously small percentage of the population that to demand "woman" not mean "someone with a vagina" is kind of delusional.
[QUOTE=zombojoe;41117311]You can't be racist to white people on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
are you seriously trying to justify racism here?
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117310]Well I'm not one to change my vocabulary just so I don't offend people that shouldn't really be offended in the first place.[/QUOTE]
you can't in any way dictate what people should be offended about. the fact they you think you can shows that you lack empathy
[QUOTE=zombojoe;41117311]You can't be racist to white people on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
discrimination against the largest majority of people in the western world isn't a real issue. satirizing it only serves as stupid fluff that no one is honestly bothered about
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41117323]are you seriously trying to justify racism here?[/QUOTE]
Its literally the consensus by moderators.
I don't agree with it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41117306]why is there an "objective reality" about this situation that you know that we don't? why can't you prove this if it's a medical fact?[/QUOTE]
There is severe controversy about whether gender identity disorder should be classified as a mental disorder, it was in the DSM-IV TR, but was removed and was updated as "Gender dysphoria". The only controversy that remains is whether you should call it a mental disorder, the only reason that the transgender community argues it shouldn't be is because it pathologizes gender variance and reinforces the binary model of gender, basically, because it's insensitive. It is a mental disorder, but just because people are scared to be "mean" there is some sort of controversy.
[QUOTE=zombojoe;41117311]You can't be racist to white people on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
shut it honkey
go watch Three's Company and eat a jar of mayonnaise
[QUOTE=zombojoe;41117340]Its literally the consensus by moderators.
I don't agree with it.[/QUOTE]
Whatever, you're talking about something completely unrelated to the topic. just stop.
I mean, I never even brought up white people, or any specific race. What are you even arguing about at this point
[QUOTE=Dori;41117326]you can't in any way dictate what people should be offended about. the fact they you think you can shows that you lack empathy[/QUOTE]
Well you shouldn't be offended about my intensely personal decisions, I guess if you want to force yourself offense so you can feel like a victim, that's fine, but it's not very productive.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;41117316]Gabe has the right of it though.
Transgenders make up such a ridiculously small percentage of the population that to demand "woman" not mean "someone with a vagina" is kind of delusional.[/QUOTE]
No he doesn't have it right. He has the right to use the term woman, but if someone complains afterwards the right thing to do would have been to apologize and move on. If people continued to complain after that then it would not have been his problem, it would have been an honest mistake. He deliberately fanned the flames.
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41117313]I'm talking about discrimination, what the fuck. I never brought up plain offense.
This whole argument has springed up because you can't read what I posted.[/QUOTE]
the post you replied to that i replied to was talking about offenses, not discrimination, you turned it into that discussion
sure i can't read apparently but neither can you
[QUOTE=Fetret;41117371]No he doesn't have it right. He has the right to use the term woman, but if someone complains afterwards the right thing to do would have been to apologize and move on. If people continued to complain after that then it would not have been his problem, it would have been an honest mistake. He deliberately fanned the flames.[/QUOTE]
So because he shared his opinion on the definition of a term he deserved to get flamed, and he NEEDED to apologize because his position is DEFINITELY wrong.
[QUOTE=Fetret;41117371]No he doesn't have it right. He has the right to use the term woman, but if someone complains afterwards the right thing to do would have been to apologize and move on. If people continued to complain after that then it would not have been his problem, it would have been an honest mistake. He deliberately fanned the flames.[/QUOTE]
Why should he apologize? That implies he said something wrong.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117369]Well you shouldn't be offended about my intensely personal decisions, I guess if you want to force yourself offense so you can feel like a victim, that's fine, but it's not very productive.[/QUOTE]
being denied agency over my gender identity is extremely hurtful. I don't expect you to understand that seeing as how you have the audacity to compare gender dysphoria to schizophrenia
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117369]Well you shouldn't be offended about my intensely personal decisions, I guess if you want to force yourself offense so you can feel like a victim, that's fine, but it's not very productive.[/QUOTE]
You know what, this is the first thing you said tonight that I agree with. But at the same time you cannot be offended if people find you bigoted and ignorant. You take that risk if you share your "intensely personal decisions" on an online forum.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117379]So because he shared his opinion on the definition of a term he deserved to get flamed, and he NEEDED to apologize because his position is DEFINITELY wrong.[/QUOTE]
He's objectively wrong, though.
[QUOTE=Dori;41117389]being denied agency over my gender identity is extremely hurtful. I don't expect you to understand that seeing as how you have the audacity to compare gender dysphoria to schizophrenia[/QUOTE]
I'm denying you what now? You have a fundamental RIGHT to my acceptance of you? No, I didn't deny you anything, you don't NEED to have my acceptance, I don't need to give it to you.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117348]There is severe controversy about whether gender identity disorder should be classified as a mental disorder, it was in the DSM-IV TR, but was removed and was updated as "Gender dysphoria". The only controversy that remains is whether you should call it a mental disorder, the only reason that the transgender community argues it shouldn't be is because it pathologizes gender variance and reinforces the binary model of gender, basically, because it's insensitive. It is a mental disorder, but just because people are scared to be "mean" there is some sort of controversy.[/QUOTE]
because you lack empathy, i'll spell it out to you
it is insensitive, it is inaccurate, and it is not a good way to describe this medically or otherwise.
[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;41117402]He's objectively wrong, though.[/QUOTE]
Oh dear this is not how a movement should present itself.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;41117386]Why should he apologize? That implies he said something wrong.[/QUOTE]
Because he did? If people complained about his use of the term woman that means he either made an honest mistake anyone can make, where the correct response would have been to apologize and move on as I said, or did it on purpose, which is wrong on many levels.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41117406]because you lack empathy, i'll spell it out to you
it is insensitive, it is inaccurate, and it is not a good way to describe this medically or otherwise.[/QUOTE]
It being insensitive is irrelevant, this is science, science shouldn't hold biases and shouldn't waiver to emotion. It isn't inaccurate, it is clearly a mental disorder, it used to be thought of as one, and the only reason there is controversy is LITERALLY because it's insensitive, which is, again, irrelevant.
It is a good way to describe it, because to describe it by its factual standing is good for science.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117404]I'm denying you what now? You have a fundamental RIGHT to my acceptance of you? No, I didn't deny you anything, you don't NEED to have my acceptance, I don't need to give it to you.[/QUOTE]
how do you sleep at night knowing that you're responsible for the suicides of GSMs
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117411]Oh dear this is not how a movement should present itself.[/QUOTE]
I'm not part of "a movement". Since you agree that transgendered people (including males, with no vaginas, identifying as women) are definitely a real thing, it logically follows that the statement "all women have vaginas" is false. Even if you think it's a mental illness, it doesn't suddenly make the very obvious counterexamples not exist.
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117379]So because he shared his opinion on the definition of a term he deserved to get flamed, and he NEEDED to apologize because his position is DEFINITELY wrong.[/QUOTE]
I never said he deserved to get flamed. There are ways of complaining and mentioning you were offended by something someone said without flaming. People who flamed him are/were not helping the situation either.
[QUOTE=Dori;41117389]being denied agency over my gender identity is extremely hurtful. I don't expect you to understand that seeing as how you have the audacity to compare gender dysphoria to schizophrenia[/QUOTE]
Why exactly?
I don't give a shit if someone on the internet says I don't have a right to be straight, to identify as a male, to identify as a geek / says i shouldn't have been born / should kill myself / calls me a bigot.
I might respond, but would be in no way hurt. Why do you find it hurtful?
Sticks and stones.
[QUOTE=Dori;41117424]how do you sleep at night knowing that you're responsible for the suicides of GSMs[/QUOTE]
I sleep at night perfectly well, and I still would even if I'd insulted some person who then went and clopped it. In the end I didn't slit their wrists, they did.
[QUOTE=Fetret;41117417]Because he did? If people complained about his use of the term woman that means he either made an honest mistake anyone can make, where the correct response would have been to apologize and move on as I said, or did it on purpose, which is wrong on many levels.[/QUOTE]
So he should just give in to people so as to not offend people who shouldn't be offended over someone else's interpretation and worldview? How dictatorial!
[QUOTE=Lambadvanced;41117422]It being insensitive is irrelevant, this is science, science shouldn't hold biases and shouldn't waiver to emotion. It isn't inaccurate, it is clearly a mental disorder, it used to be thought of as one, and the only reason there is controversy is LITERALLY because it's insensitive, which is, again, irrelevant.
It is a good way to describe it, because to describe it by its factual standing is good for science.[/QUOTE]
but calling it a mental disorder akin to skitzofrenia or other similar conditions is not accurate because it is vastly different than that order of disorder.
[editline]20th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dori;41117424]how do you sleep at night knowing that you're responsible for the suicides of GSMs[/QUOTE]
i don't think you're going about this the right way
[QUOTE=Ogris;41117314]We're not, that's why there's hormonal treatments and sometimes surgeries. It's not a mental illness because it's not your mind thats fucking up for the most part. It's hormones and genes.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/2131[/url]
[url]http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar02/genetic.aspx[/url]
once again this is going to sound like im being a dick but once again i'm just connecting terms to things i've heard before to this topic which i am new to, but eating disorders are also linked to malfunctioning genes and hormones. as someone who doesn't understand in my opinion a reassignment surgery so you feel more comfortable with your given genes/hormones is like an anorexic person getting their stomach stapled so they feel more comfortable. Incredibly insensitive comparison and whatnot, but in my mind i can't see much of a difference. point out the flaws in my thinking.
[QUOTE=Dori;41117424]how do you sleep at night knowing that you're responsible for the suicides of GSMs[/QUOTE]
Dude what the hell, I would never hurt anyone based on their sexuality or gender identity, I would accept them just as I would anyone else, but just like I have with any other human, friend or otherwise, I will harbor some judgments of their characters traits.
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