• "I think women have vaginas; I think you call a person with a vagina a woman." Penny Arcade's Gabe s
    1,221 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133716]If the only chromosome being expressed is the X, it's the exact same thing as having two X chromosomes.[/QUOTE] No it isn't, because there isn't two X chromosomes. I would have thought that was obvious.
[QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133649]She may have both X and Y chromasomes but only the X is being fully expressed, it's effectively the same thing as being born female.[/QUOTE] You could say the same about Transgender Females.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;41133758]You could say the same about Transgender Females.[/QUOTE] No you can't. Just believing you're a woman doesn't change how your genes are expressed.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41133727]You're not female, you're a woman. Female is the sex remember. Also why would your life be threatened?[/QUOTE] Because people are, shocker i know, Transphobic!!! [QUOTE=Atlascore;41133757]This is confusing now, why did female and woman suddenly become interchangeable again?[/QUOTE] I use female and woman interchangeable but technically i am wrong, female is sex and woman is gender. I just like the word female more. [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133784]No you can't. Just believing you're a woman doesn't change how your genes are expressed.[/QUOTE] Theres plenty of evidence to suggest its more than just a belief.
[QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133716]If the only chromosome being expressed is the X, it's the exact same thing as having two X chromosomes. Okay, I made a mistake, despite having an X and Y chromosome she still is phenotypically female. The Y chromosome isn't being expressed, so she is a biological female.[/QUOTE] You're still making a mistake. Transwomen are also phenotypically female. Biological women have two X chromosomes. You are not a biological female with XY chromosomes. The person in that video with AIS is biologically male. Now are you going to say she's supposed to use the men's room or are you going to admit you can't just divide every human cleanly into the categories of man and woman? [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133784]No you can't. Just believing you're a woman doesn't change how your genes are expressed.[/QUOTE] We went over why genes are irrelevant and you also don't seem to understand the difference between sex and gender. Do you?
[QUOTE=Skelmech;41133785] Theres plenty of evidence to suggest its more than just a belief.[/QUOTE] From what I've seen yes, people who identify as the opposite sex often have similar brain chemistry to them.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41133809]Now are you going to say she's supposed to use the men's room or are you going to admit you can't just divide every human cleanly into the categories of man and woman? [/QUOTE] you say that like it's really easy to explain to other people saying "don't worry i'm actually female-to-male/male-to-female" is not proof enough that you are sincere to people that are the opposite sex, and expecting them not to be confused or uncomfortable (in the dressing room/locker room example specifically) is unrealistic of you that's not to say other people are [I]right [/I]to be weirded out by it, but saying "you can either do this or admit you are wrong" is a pretty shitty way to present an argument
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41133809]You're still making a mistake. Transwomen are also phenotypically female. Biological women have two X chromosomes. You are not a biological female with XY chromosomes. The person in that video with AIS is biologically male. Now are you going to say she's supposed to use the men's room or are you going to admit you can't just divide every human cleanly into the categories of man and woman? [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] We went over why genes are irrelevant and you also don't seem to understand the difference between sex and gender. Do you?[/QUOTE] When dealing with sex genes are the only thing that are relevant, if gender and sex are separate then your gender does not define your sex and vice versa. When it comes to genes the only ones that actually matter are the ones that are expressed, in her case of AIS it was the X chromosome, regardless of the presence of the Y chromosome she is biologically female. Assuming you're talking about gender, then no, you cannot cleanly divide every human into man or woman. Sex on the other hand, except in relatively rare occasions is pretty easy to divide into male or female.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41133727]Also why would your life be threatened?[/QUOTE] Holy shit did you really just ask this? You're in this thread and you just asked this? Man you must be the kind of guy who back in the slavery days asked black people why they didn't drink from the white mans fountains.
[QUOTE=Doomish;41133874]you say that like it's really easy to explain to other people saying "don't worry i'm actually female-to-male/male-to-female" is not proof enough that you are sincere to people that are the opposite sex, and expecting them not to be confused or uncomfortable (in the dressing room/locker room example specifically) is unrealistic of you that's not to say other people are [I]right [/I]to be weirded out by it, but saying "you can either do this or admit you are wrong" is a pretty shitty way to present an argument[/QUOTE] Or why can't you just say "I'm a woman" because you look like a woman and talk like a woman and be able to go into a bathroom without causing a big fucking hassle for no reason.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41133737]Affect other people in what way, exactly? That they have to share a bathroom with a transsexual? Maybe people should grow the fuck up. Calling transgenderism a "personal problem" is trivializing the issue. [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] Do you know ANYTHING about gender dysphoria? Serious question.[/QUOTE] "Having to share a bathroom with their own sex, maybe they should grow the fuck up"
[QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133897]When dealing with sex genes are the only thing that are relevant, if gender and sex are separate then your gender does not define your sex and vice versa. When it comes to genes the only ones that actually matter are the ones that are expressed, in her case of AIS it was the X chromosome, regardless of the presence of the Y chromosome she is biologically female. Assuming you're talking about gender, then no, you cannot cleanly divide every human into man or woman. Sex on the other hand, except in relatively rare occasions is pretty easy to divide into male or female.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex"]You were saying?[/URL]
Two things fascinate me. Firstly, how the thread turned from poor choice of words on Gabe's part into arguing about mixed physical gender characteristics. Secondly, how people can get really riled up about "equipment" of a person despite this not affecting their, or others, lives negatively. Society strikes again!
[QUOTE=Skelmech;41133943][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex"]You were saying?[/URL][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133897] Sex on the other hand, [B]except in relatively rare occasions[/B] is pretty easy to divide into male or female.[/QUOTE] I did say.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41133939]"Having to share a bathroom with their own sex, maybe they should grow the fuck up"[/QUOTE] Did you see that AIS video? Are you going to tell her to go to the boy's room? [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MegaChalupa;41133972]I did say.[/QUOTE] Except it's not as simple as going "oh yeah you can divide everybody easily into male or female" then just brush aside intersex people, AIS sufferers etc. These are real people with real issues, and you're going to just ignore them and force them to make distressing choices because they don't match their sex/gender?
[QUOTE=Tweevle;41133605]Thank you! And well, in an ideal world, yeah, people wouldn't be bothered about what other people say and everyone could just be who they liked without a care. But that's not how people are, at least not at the moment. You're lucky enough to be a person able to not really care what people think about you, and I'm glad for you, but you can't expect everyone else to be like that, and nor should they have to. By saying people shouldn't care and not worry about gender and labels and everything, while you may have good intentions, you basically come across as trivializing the suffering and feelings they experience all the time. They can't just "turn it off", emotions don't work like that. I'm sure most if not all trans people if given opportunity to not mind when someone misgenders them they'd take it, but that's not how it works and so it's not unreasonable to expect people to give them basic respect and refer to them how they wish to be. Also, you're kind of expecting more from trans people than anyone else. Cis people get to be labelled in a way that's appropriate for them without people saying they should just not care what people think of them in regards to that and be genderless. Why should trans people have to be the only people to automatically bear the brunt of challenging gender roles, not being tied to any gender and not caring what people think of them? Most of them just want to live their lives in peace as they kind of person they are, and be respected in that, just like anyone else. I hope that makes sense.[/QUOTE] No, I don't believe I am. I am literally asking nothing of them, I am merely suggesting that they (really only directed at whom I was talking at) find some way not to be so reliant on gender to create their entire persona. You can be dainty without needing someone to call you a lady. You can be masculine without being called a macho man (or butch if you're technically a female). You can be anything you damn please without worrying about what the words are that define it. You're giving words and people wayy more power than they deserve. Words are meaningless. Intentions maybe less so, but if you for example overreact to someone saying "him" midsentence when they were saying something that had nothing to do with either gender or sex, it sounds like you are a very fragile and perhaps even ego-centric person. It may sound like I'm trivializing it, and maybe I am, because I firmly believe people are creating or at least supporting the problem at the same time they are presenting it to people. I don't think sex is important any more than I think gender is important, and neither do I consider them to be identifying factors of what makes a human being who doesn't adhere to vain social constructs. "Living life in peace" doesn't sound like what a lot of people want when they get in an uproar over this, it sounds like they want attention. I know you probably ARE going to find that an offensive statement but I have no other way of approaching it. I'm hearing a lot of "me, me, me" like transgenderism is the hardest thing in the world to deal with. If you REALLY wanted to be left alone, wouldn't you for instance close out of this thread and keep living your life? Maybe avoid talking to people you don't know if you are that easily offended? I mean, what then? I'm just saying, there are other problems people have too and not all of it is right there on the surface, and I believe this is one thing that could be potentially hidden under your hat or at least not brought up as a confrontation until someone was actually trying to get in your face about it.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41133987]Did you see that AIS video? Are you going to tell her to go to the boy's room? [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] Except it's not as simple as going "oh yeah you can divide everybody easily into male or female" then just brush aside intersex people, AIS sufferers etc. These are real people with real issues, and you're going to just ignore them and force them to make distressing choices because they don't match their sex/gender?[/QUOTE] She can have the big disability bathroom all to herself.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41134109]She can have the big disability bathroom all to herself.[/QUOTE] So she has to explain to people her situation when they ask why she goes to the disability bathroom and generally be considered a laughingstock or a freak. Ok. It's nice to see you've got high points the human empathy department.
[QUOTE=Skelmech;41133360]Backpdeal harder. Yes I have EVERY right to be in a female place even when nudity is involved. Personally I wouldn't go to one if there was something like rape victims involved because I wouldn't want them to think anything bad by seeing my dick, but I still have every right to be there. Last time I checked the signs say "Women only" not "Vagina only"[/QUOTE] You are aware of the fact that to most people the two kinda merge?
[QUOTE=Skelmech;41134136]So she has to explain to people her situation when they ask why she goes to the disability bathroom and generally be considered a laughingstock or a freak. Ok. It's nice to see you've got high points the human empathy department.[/QUOTE] That's not really an issue as she doesn't have any friends left anyways.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41134109]She can have the big disability bathroom all to herself.[/QUOTE] this thread isn't a contest on how insensitive you can be
[QUOTE=wraithcat;41134141]You are aware of the fact that to most people the two kinda merge?[/QUOTE] But that doesn't mean they should. [editline]21st June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers;41134145]That's not really an issue as she doesn't have any friends left anyways.[/QUOTE] Oh all is well then! Great! She can just be a freak to the random fucking strangers!
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41134145]That's not really an issue as she doesn't have any friends left anyways.[/QUOTE] Well now you're just trolling so I guess this is over now.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41134174]Well now you're just trolling so I guess this is over now.[/QUOTE] The question was nonsense. Who's gonna ask a person with a disability if they actually have one. She wouldn't have to explain anything as no sane person is gonna ask.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41134188]The question was nonsense. Who's gonna ask a person with a disability if they actually have one. She wouldn't have to explain anything as no sane person is gonna ask.[/QUOTE] Then what sane person is going ask her: 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[/T] "HEY DO YOU HAVE A PENIS OR XY CHROMOSOMES BECAUSE IF SO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED IN HERE"
When did spaces like bathrooms and clinics become about gender and not sex? It's clear that someone who is a female should go to the women's bathroom, because they are made specifically for that sex. Men's bathrooms have urinals for men to use their penis' to urinate with, and since I've never been in the women's bathrooms I don't know what's in there, but I'd imagine it's a similar situation. Just because the word "Woman" and the word "Man" can be used to describe gender doesn't mean that they won't ultimately be used to describe sex.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41133987] Except it's not as simple as going "oh yeah you can divide everybody easily into male or female" then just brush aside intersex people, AIS sufferers etc. These are real people with real issues, and you're going to just ignore them and force them to make distressing choices because they don't match their sex/gender?[/QUOTE] I didn't mean to brush aside intersex people and I'm sorry about how I worded that. The situation with those who are intersex is far more complicated than someone who is misgendered because they are effectively people without a defined sex. They completely lack the ability to identify as either sex and they should be treated on an individual basis on their own discretion.
[QUOTE=willer;41134227]When did spaces like bathrooms and clinics become about gender and not sex? It's clear that someone who is a female should go to the women's bathroom, because they are made specifically for that sex. Men's bathrooms have urinals for men to use their penis' to urinate with, and since I've never been in the women's bathrooms I don't know what's in there, but I'd imagine it's a similar situation. Just because the word "Woman" and the word "Man" can be used to describe gender doesn't mean that they won't ultimately be used to describe sex.[/QUOTE] Women's bathrooms just have toilets. Last I checked, toilets are for anyone.
[QUOTE=willer;41134227]When did spaces like bathrooms and clinics become about gender and not sex? It's clear that someone who is a female should go to the women's bathroom, because they are made specifically for that sex. Men's bathrooms have urinals for men to use their penis' to urinate with, and since I've never been in the women's bathrooms I don't know what's in there, but I'd imagine it's a similar situation. Just because the word "Woman" and the word "Man" can be used to describe gender doesn't mean that they won't ultimately be used to describe sex.[/QUOTE] I've never used a urinal in my life. Always opted for the stalls Which is what womens bathrooms are, Stalls. Arguments about transpeople being able to use the bathrooms of their gender always made me think of this comic [IMG]http://www.amptoons.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/kevin-moore-bathroom-cartoo.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=mobrockers;41134188]The question was nonsense. Who's gonna ask a person with a disability if they actually have one. She wouldn't have to explain anything as no sane person is gonna ask.[/QUOTE] So your reaction to nonsense is to try and say even dumber things? I mean you succeeded, but what the hell.
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