Dishin the fiction, Furrioso style!
Guess what, Joesph Fritzel is not a common criminal, and they have other higher security prisons in Norway to deal with dangerous or psychopathic individuals.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;21688025]Dishin the fiction, Furrioso style!
Guess what, Joesph Fritzel is not a common criminal, and they have other higher security prisons in Norway to deal with dangerous or psychopathic individuals.[/QUOTE]
And murderers and rapists [I]aren't[/I] psychopathic individuals?
[QUOTE=Furioso;21687989]
My point is that I don't understand why murderers and rapists are being treated like they are when they've inflicted so much pain and abuse towards their victims and their families
If somebody in your family was murdered or raped, you'd totally support putting them in Halden, right?[/QUOTE]
Well, if they had been murdered, I'd have a hard time putting them in prison. And if they were raped, wouldn't that make them the victim?
I assume that was just a crude formatting problem.
If somebody in my family had been raped or murdered, I'd probably go out of my way kill the perpetrator myself. I don't enjoy many aspects of my life other than my close family, so I wouldn't have a whole lot to lose.
I personally don't see a problem with vigilante justice. It's an individual taking a duty upon himself, despite the possible consequences for his actions. The inhumane punishment from the sterile hand of the state is cruel and impersonal. There's some things the government should not get involved in, and criminal punishment or "justice" is not one of them. [I][B]Genuine [/B][/I]rehabilitation, however, is a different story. The US prison system is a sorry excuse for "justice."
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;21688108]Well, if they had been murdered, I'd have a hard time putting them in prison. And if they were raped, wouldn't that make them the victim?
I assume that was just a crude formatting problem.
If somebody in my family had been raped or murdered, I'd probably go out of my way kill the perpetrator myself. I don't enjoy many aspects of my life other than my close family, so I wouldn't have a whole lot to lose.
I personally don't see a problem with vigilante justice. It's an individual taking a duty upon himself, despite the possible consequences for his actions. The inhumane punishment from the sterile hand of the state is cruel and impersonal. There's some things the government should not get involved in, and criminal punishment or "justice" is not one of them. [I][B]Genuine [/B][/I]rehabilitation, however, is a different story. The US prison system is a sorry excuse for "justice."[/QUOTE]
Why can't everyone's posts be coherent and thoughtful like this? I respect you for this
But it's interesting that you support rehabilitation of criminals that didn't commit a crime towards your family, and vigilantism in response to the same crimes were they committed to your family instead
So why do you support Halden then, if it caters to the appeasement of criminals like rapists and murderers? By the way, justice isn't dealt for the [I]criminals[/I], its dealt for the [I]victims[/I]. As far as they're concerned, the criminals being imprisoned is justice itself.
Now, I agree, the current judicial system in many places isn't good at all for dealing with crime, but this just seems [I]way[/I] too light. It's gone from too harsh, to not harsh enough - criminals should have a reason not to go back to prison. It doesn't seem like Halden would accomplish that.
[QUOTE=Billiam;21685051]That prison is nicer than my house.
I would commit a billion crimes if I could get sent to that prison every time.[/QUOTE]
Only those that are 100% Norwegian can be in that prison, and it's aimed at not so serious crimes, not like murder and rape.
My last post only applied to really close family members. If one of my cousins or something got killed, I would mourn, and hope that the criminal would be rehabilitated, and the same thing wouldn't happen to anybody else (and it probably wouldn't, due to the success of rehabilitating systems)
Whether the criminal is punished or not makes no difference. Two wrongs don't make a right, wishing punishment on a criminal won't make the loved one come back, I'd say that all you can hope for is that the same thing won't happen to anybody else, but in the US prison system, that's probably not the case; because the criminal will leave prison even more hardened and fucked up than when he first came in. In a humane prison system, they would be held there for a few years, and would be able to go back out and live a normal life, and their contribution might be able to make up for what was taken from their victim.
To reiterate on my last post, that sort of thing would only apply if the person who did it was some sociopath who wouldn't be able to benefit from rehabilitation. If it was somebody who did it accidentally, or who did it, and was regretful of it, I'd move on. The best "punishment" is guilt. If a criminal sees what he has destroyed, and feels remorse for it, then that is when they can start being rehabilitated. Making them suffer in some shithole for 15 years only destroys two lives. I'm sure a fair majority of people who murder are just scumbags who don't know any better. If they kill and innocent person, they'll need to see what they have destroyed, and as they go through the rehabilitation process, they'll probably feel bad about it. If it's just some scumbag who killed another scumbag, then there's no loss, and the criminal can be rehabilitated anyways; taught to live normally and productively.
[QUOTE=Monkey pie;21688396]Only those that are 100% Norwegian can be in that prison, and it's aimed at not so serious crimes, not like murder and rape.[/QUOTE]
[quote]When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape," Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, [B]murderers and rapists[/B], among others.[/quote][editline]02:10AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;21688448]My last post only applied to really close family members. If one of my cousins or something got killed, I would mourn, and hope that the criminal would be rehabilitated, and the same thing wouldn't happen to anybody else (and it probably wouldn't, due to the success of rehabilitating systems)
Whether the criminal is punished or not makes no difference. Two wrongs don't make a right, wishing punishment on a criminal won't make the loved one come back, I'd say that all you can hope for is that the same thing won't happen to anybody else, but in the US prison system, that's probably not the case; because the criminal will leave prison even more hardened and fucked up than when he first came in. In a humane prison system, they would be held there for a few years, and would be able to go back out and live a normal life, and their contribution might be able to make up for what was taken from their victim.
To reiterate on my last post, that sort of thing would only apply if the person who did it was some sociopath who wouldn't be able to benefit from rehabilitation. If it was somebody who did it accidentally, or who did it, and was regretful of it, I'd move on. The best "punishment" is guilt. If a criminal sees what he has destroyed, and feels remorse for it, then that is when they can start being rehabilitated. Making them suffer in some shithole for 15 years only destroys two lives.
I'm sure a fair majority of people who muder are just scumbags who don't know any better. If they kill and innoent person, they'll need to see what they have destryoed, and as they go through the rehabilitation process, they'll probably feel bad about it. If it's just some scumbag who killed another scumbag, then there's no loss, and the crimnal can be rehabilitated anyways; taught to live normally and productively.[/QUOTE]
I see your point. Thanks for explaining it to me instead of going "[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/member.php?u=88429"]lolno you're wrong and stupid and immoral kthx[/URL]"
[QUOTE=Furioso;21687865]The book is a good example in the sense that it demonstrates the complexities of the demented mind of deranged criminals. Perhaps you should learn about the valuable application of fiction in real life - there's a reason that fictional books are required in the educational curriculum.
You should also learn to not merely take things at face value.[/QUOTE]
this is dumb
for someone who holds fictional literature in high regard, you obviously have no idea what a clockwork orange is about.
it is about so much more than some deluded criminal, in fact that is a very SMALL part of it
using the books vessel and not the message as the foundation for your argument about prisons is rather silly. the book is about free will, not that criminals can't be rehabilitated. in fact if alex wasn't robbed of his free will, perhaps he would have peacefully come to realize the error of his ways (like in the omitted chapter).
Are you all blind!?
Halden's no prison, it's a masterminds "hideout" - he has tricked you all, the government thinks it's just a prison.
[QUOTE=NickFury666;21685033]Brb, raping a chick in Norway[/QUOTE]
You would be sent back to your country and held there.
[QUOTE=Furioso;21688453]
I see your point. Thanks for explaining it to me instead of going "[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/member.php?u=88429"]lolno you're wrong and stupid and immoral kthx[/URL]"[/QUOTE]
Chippay is my bro you step off or I will send you a strongly worded PM asking you again to step off
In norway we pay taxes.
[QUOTE=Monkey pie;21688396]Only those that are 100% Norwegian can be in that prison, and it's aimed at not so serious crimes, not like murder and rape.[/QUOTE]
Currently, 7 out of 10 inmates are currently immigrants.
And Halden is also the city the prison is located in.
Norway <3 Not like those American prisons where there's a big chance you'll end up dead, or damaged for life. Both mentally and physically.
Norway has the highest standard of living (and the highest cost of living) in the world, so its not surprising that they're making a prison that actually DOES something to rehabilitate prisoners.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;21685077]This is why you go to Norway to burn churches and stab people in the face[/QUOTE]
We have enough foreigners killing us already. :v:
Someone make a Norwegian flag with some animal shedding tears like those other flags.
[QUOTE=Furioso;21688453][editline]02:10AM[/editline]
I see your point. Thanks for explaining it to me instead of going "[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/member.php?u=88429"]lolno you're wrong and stupid and immoral kthx[/URL]"[/QUOTE]
My bad.
This is good and bad. Bad in the sense that anybody could go over to Norway and kill a man just so he could live in there and have it good.
Prisons aren't supposed to be nice, you're not supposed to [B]want[/B] to get locked up in there.
[QUOTE=Mislum;21689596]We have enough foreigners killing us already. :v:
Someone make a Norwegian flag with some animal shedding tears like those other flags.[/QUOTE]
I might get around to that.
How's a crying Herring? Good?
[editline]06:14AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jojje;21689656]This is good and bad. Bad in the sense that anybody could go over to Norway and kill a man just so he could live in there and have it good.
[/QUOTE]
You'd be extradited.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;21689736]I might get around to that.
How's a crying Herring? Good?
[editline]06:14AM[/editline]
You'd be extradited.[/QUOTE]
A crying CoD.
Treating them humanily doesnt mean treating them like champs for their crimes. If they land themselves into a federal prison, means they've done something that is wrong, and taboo. Discipline, order and justice is their solution. And for the ones who do not understand, let them return to receive it harder. Don't give them life with materials as what we, common folk (haven't commited a "felony esque", have. Let them rot in concrete walls.
Erm isn't prison meant to be punishment?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;21689761]Erm isn't prison meant to be punishment?[/QUOTE]
Maybe in places like America and China and North Korea
[QUOTE=Zeke129;21689779]Maybe in places like America and China and North Korea[/QUOTE]
I don't know how Europe does things, but if you cant prosecute your offenders without discipline, Europe does things like a bunch of fucking retards.
This idea is good for small countries such as Norway, But it would be more troublesome in larger places such as the US.
[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;21689806]I don't know how Europe does things, but if you cant prosecute your offenders without discipline, Europe does things like a bunch of fucking retards.[/QUOTE]
The point of prison is rehabilitation. Only authoritarian regimes have reason to think otherwise.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;21689984]The point of prison is rehabilitation. Only authoritarian regimes have reason to think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Haha, rehabilitation, that's a good one.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21685046]I'd rather live there as a law-abiding citizen.[/QUOTE]
I already am :v:
Also I live like 30 km from that prison
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;21690041]Haha, rehabilitation, that's a good one.[/QUOTE]
Haha you're twelve.
You have no clue about how functional societies work.
[QUOTE=booster;21689825]This idea is good for small countries such as Norway, But it would be more troublesome in larger places such as the US.[/QUOTE]
Norway isn't really that small
[IMG]http://www.mynetbizz.com/budget-hotels/norway/norway-map.jpg[/IMG]
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