This is going to turn into a prison shank fest very soon
A good rule would be to make citizen's life better than the life in jail.
And that prison is limited to 200 inmates, chances of you getting there are rather slim
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;21690219]Treating prisoners nicely isn't going to teach them shit. Not all criminals have mental problems that can be sorted. Believe it or not, some of them KNOW what they're doing.[/QUOTE]
What does treating them like shit accomplish? Sure, it might feel good for the victims of their crime, but if you're not trying to help them get an education, better values etc. it's pointless.
[editline]03:10PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=PivotDJ;21692951]This is going to turn into a prison shank fest very soon[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TheForeigner;21692747]Guess many Norwegians would kill to get in there.[/QUOTE]
ITT:
People think Norway is just as uncivilized as the US.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21692459]What your explaining right now is the US/UK version of 'logic'. A logic that's got us a terrible prison system with habitual re-offenders. It's a logic that demands punishment for any and all crime, and devaluing all those who commit crime to the level of 'low-grade human beings who'd steal anything that was shiny'. This logic is why we're in this shit hole of a prison system.[/QUOTE]
No... I'm explaining the logic that those who are carrying out crime with intent need to be punished and not rewarded. It's like a child hitting his younger brother and then the parents sending that child to his room with an Xbox and a nice big chocolate bar.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21692459]Most criminals are not gang members, career criminals, hardened felons, masterminds, or insane. Most criminals are normal, rational people who come from broken homes and commit [I][U]unplanned [/U][/I]crimes. It's so illogical to assume most criminals plan or want to be criminals that Spock would smack you right in the face than offer a speech.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for repeating basically what I acknowledged in my post.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21692459]Most people in this society either have no reason to respect the law, no reason to respect one another, and have nobody to commit to. Giving people family and encouragement usually changes the average criminal.[/QUOTE]
Of course people won't respect the law if you can't take it seriously. Here in the UK, the justice system is screwed up by short and inconsistent punishments.
Many lessons in life are not things you can just 'teach' to people, that is why quite often they need to learn things the hard way. Sure, there are people who are not 'true' criminals and who have just been somewhat misguided and it is down to the courts to ensure that those sorts of people are sent to the correct rehabilitation centres. However, you are seriously mistaken if you think you can expect to be able to use the same system on regular criminals.
Punishment is a necessary evil, and those who don't recognise this are going to have a hard time in life.
[QUOTE=David29;21693423]No... I'm explaining the logic that those who are carrying out crime with intent need to be punished and not rewarded. It's like a child hitting his younger brother and then the parents sending that child to his room with an Xbox and a nice big chocolate bar.
[/QUOTE]
They are not being rewarded, they are being taught. It's actually like a child hitting his younger brother and then instead of screaming and hitting the kid they explain to him why it's wrong and teach him why not to do it again and what to do instead.
Norway has homeless people but they use too get help , good to see people know about the country.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;21693476]They are not being rewarded, they are being taught. It's actually like a child hitting his younger brother and then instead of screaming and hitting the kid they explain to him why it's wrong and teach him why not to do it again and what to do instead.[/QUOTE]
That's the problem though. That doesn't always work.
Some people are able to realise what they have done is wrong by just talking to them about it. However, there are many people who do not see things that way. In that case, proper punishment is required in order to:
a. Make them realise that if they break the law, bad things will happen to them.*
b. Provide a deterrent for future criminals.
*It's a basic human reflex - hence why we don't go put our hands on hot stoves.
I love being Norwegian :smug:
Now if only I lived there...
Rape your mother and father, then skin their corpses and feed them to your brother. And you get in there for life! Wee!
[QUOTE=Dolton;21693731]I love being Norwegian :smug:
Now if only I lived there...[/QUOTE]
where do you live :v:
[QUOTE=David29;21693671]That's the problem though. That doesn't always work.
Some people are able to realise what they have done is wrong by just talking to them about it. However, there are many people who do not see things that way. In that case, proper punishment is required in order to:
a. Make them realise that if they break the law, bad things will happen to them.*
b. Provide a deterrent for future criminals.
*It's a basic human reflex - hence why we don't go put our hands on hot stoves.[/QUOTE]
It'd be a good idea except for the fact that when you send them to a place where they're subject to horrors they won't take the concept of punishment rationally anymore. It's one thing to punish a person, but when you drive them out of their fucking mind you won't get positive results.
[QUOTE=Ldesu;21694831]where do you live :v:[/QUOTE]
Probably Minnesota.
[QUOTE=Carne;21689510]Norway <3 Not like those American prisons where there's a big chance you'll end up dead, or damaged for life. Both mentally and physically.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, if you are not good at holding on to soap you will be able to sit on a football and not feel it by the time you get out.
[QUOTE=David29;21693671]That's the problem though. That doesn't always work.
Some people are able to realise what they have done is wrong by just talking to them about it. However, there are many people who do not see things that way.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but you really are pulling this out of your butt. What does a 60% re-offending rate to a 20% re-offending rate tell you? It tells you that 'some' people cannot be helped, but the 'teaching' program works more than the 'punishing' program.
[QUOTE=David29;21693671]In that case, proper punishment is required in order to:
a. Make them realise that if they break the law, bad things will happen to them.*
b. Provide a deterrent for future criminals.
*It's a basic human reflex - hence why we don't go put our hands on hot stoves.[/QUOTE]
Wow, really? I didn't realise none of that was part of the criminal justice system already!
In the UK/USA, you're put into a dark cave where the other cavemen hate you and probably want to push you into a social group for respect. You're forced to develop a 'hard skin' to survive the harsh conditions. You're taught to disrespect the guards, the psychologists, and anyone who goes running to them is put into solitary confinement for 'their own safety'.
Explain to me, what the FUCK good this does for people. What the FUCK kind of 'oven' this is to 'burn your hands on'. It's a complete disaster. All you're telling these people is that "If you break the law, you'll go to a building. In this building, people will want to hurt you. They'll teach you criminal activities, or they'll outcast you. When you leave, you'll have a hard time finding a job because of your record, no matter how hard you work for some qualifications. You're actually very likely to re-offend just because you spent time in this building"
What the fuck kind of 'punishment' is that? What do they learn? They learn nothing. They learn to commit more crime, they learn to keep their mouths shut, they learn to become cold and emotionless around others. All it does is breed these people to be a greater risk to society.
And deterrent? What kind of deterrent is that? Once you leave, the fear is gone. You've been there for a year, and you know what to expect. A gang-member or a hard-core criminal would care even less they're going back as they've seen it all before. They learn nothing, they fear it less, and a 60% re-offending PROVES it's not a deterrent.
That's the problem with this society, people want a quick fix to problems, and believe that 'punishing' people 'fixes' them. People refuse to accept that sometimes being kind to people helps breed kindness. But no, we all just want to throw these 'nasty people' away and let them be 'punished' because they're so 'evil'. It's complete nonsense.
To be honest, no greater punishment than forcing them to fully confront the murders they caused.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;21696161]To be honest, no greater punishment than forcing them to fully confront the murders they caused.[/QUOTE]
That'd be something I'd rather see than the current systems in place. After a short prison time, a visit to the victims, and eventually into a prison like this one in Norway.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21695589]Probably Minnesota.[/QUOTE]
I've seen on TV once that there is a place in USA where there lives a ton of Norwegians. Is Minnesota the place?
[QUOTE=Billiam;21695095]It'd be a good idea except for the fact that when you send them to a place where they're subject to horrors they won't take the concept of punishment rationally anymore. It's one thing to punish a person, but when you drive them out of their fucking mind you won't get positive results.[/QUOTE]
Except I'm not suggesting that criminals be sent to Auschwitz...
You're talking about torture - I'm talking about humane punishment.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21696065]I'm sorry, but you really are pulling this out of your butt. What does a 60% re-offending rate to a 20% re-offending rate tell you? It tells you that 'some' people cannot be helped, but the 'teaching' program works more than the 'punishing' program.[/Quote]
I would like to see where you have got your figures from.
No, some people cannot be helped. But some people require more than some 'teaching' in order to set them straight.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21696065]In the UK/USA, you're put into a dark cave where the other cavemen hate you and probably want to push you into a social group for respect. You're forced to develop a 'hard skin' to survive the harsh conditions. You're taught to disrespect the guards, the psychologists, and anyone who goes running to them is put into solitary confinement for 'their own safety'.[/quote]
Shall I assume, then, that you are talking from experience?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21696065]Explain to me, what the FUCK good this does for people. What the FUCK kind of 'oven' this is to 'burn your hands on'. It's a complete disaster. All you're telling these people is that "If you break the law, you'll go to a building. In this building, people will want to hurt you. They'll teach you criminal activities, or they'll outcast you. When you leave, you'll have a hard time finding a job because of your record, no matter how hard you work for some qualifications. You're actually very likely to re-offend just because you spent time in this building"[/quote]
"Hey, I went to a prison which I hated! I think I will go re-offend just so I can go back there! I recommend other people do the same as well!"
Really, how can you keep a straight face and suggest that going to prison [i]encourages[/i] people to re-offend once they are out, especially considering how bad you make the prisons out to be?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21696065]What the fuck kind of 'punishment' is that? What do they learn? They learn nothing. They learn to commit more crime, they learn to keep their mouths shut, they learn to become cold and emotionless around others. All it does is breed these people to be a greater risk to society.[/Quote]
I know people who have gone to prison and they have turned out as evidence to the contrary.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21696065]And deterrent? What kind of deterrent is that? Once you leave, the fear is gone. You've been there for a year, and you know what to expect. A gang-member or a hard-core criminal would care even less they're going back as they've seen it all before. They learn nothing, they fear it less, and a 60% re-offending PROVES it's not a deterrent.[/Quote]
I'm talking about as a deterrent to committing a crime in the first place. I wonder if someone would be more less inclined to commit a crime if they knew they were going to be forced to go to a school?
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21696065]That's the problem with this society, people want a quick fix to problems, and believe that 'punishing' people 'fixes' them. People refuse to accept that sometimes being kind to people helps breed kindness. But no, we all just want to throw these 'nasty people' away and let them be 'punished' because they're so 'evil'. It's complete nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Newsflash: punishment does fix problems. Not always, but for at least some of them. That's why parents shout at/smack their children - to hit on that basic mental instinct that doing bad things will have repercussions.
Also, I'm getting tired of you completely disregarding the fact that [b]I am not saying all people are evil and need to be fully punished[/b]. So please, for the love of God:
a. Get that into your damn skull.
b. Read each of my posts twice, because I hate having to repeat myself as I am doing.
Yeah, I'm probably sounding like a complete dick, but I hate it when people try to argue against me with something I have already acknowledged and accepted.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;21696161]To be honest, no greater punishment than forcing them to fully confront the murders they caused.[/QUOTE]
Assuming they care.
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]I would like to see where you have got your figures from.[/quote]
Certainly, two years of psychology education, with one year focusing on criminology.
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]Shall I assume, then, that you are talking from experience?[/quote]
Scientific evidence from research papers on the matter, yes. I may act like an uneducated dick on the Internet, but that doesn't mean alot. I have a keen interest in sociology and human reactions to their environment.
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]"Hey, I went to a prison which I hated! I think I will go re-offend just so I can go back there! I recommend other people do the same as well!"[/quote]
Explain the figures. Explain why so many people re-offend. Explain that to me. If it's either a) So horrible it crushes your mind into not re-offending or b) they get sufficient help to continue their existence in real life. Remembering that they still need an income, they need rehab and social support, they need a stable environment free of the need to commit crime, etc. Then why are they so horribly high?
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]Really, how can you keep a straight face and suggest that going to prison [i]encourages[/i] people to re-offend once they are out, especially considering how bad you make the prisons out to be?[/quote]
Prison does not 'encourage' people to re-offend, it's simply that they receive no benefit from going to prison, and they often end up more broken and down-trodden then they were when going in. Depression rates are high amongst prison-leavers. Inmate violence is high. How the hell can they get a job if they're seeing a doctor for pills? You just go back and commit more crime. But for those more criminally minded you have inmates teaching new ones how to commit crime, or engage in prison violence (Gang culture, etc) It's a repeating cycle for alot of people as there is little help inside or outside the walls. What do you want them to do as a 'punishment'? Break rocks? Spending 20 years breaking rocks being better than reforming them into decent citizens?
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]I'm talking about as a deterrent to committing a crime in the first place. I wonder if someone would be more less inclined to commit a crime if they knew they were going to be forced to go to a school?[/quote]
I'm not against prisons, it's simply that the prison system in the west is awful. You can't force people to be educated, you have to break down their hate and anger, then build them from the ground up - and our prison system is not designed for that. it's a quick fix to appease the victims. It burns away money, it burns away valuable time, and it causes more damage than it fixes. Do you know how much it costs to house people for a year or two, then keep paying policemen to continually re-arrest them? Let alone the cost of the crimes they commit.
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]Newsflash: punishment does fix problems. Not always, but for at least some of them. That's why parents shout at/smack their children - to hit on that basic mental instinct that doing bad things will have repercussions.[/quote]
No. No it doesn't. When you have 'problem children', smacking/shouting does little. Ordinary children, certainly. But most criminals are not 'ordinary children', they're 'problem children' from broken homes, bad estates, poor economic backgrounds or violent backgrounds. Telling a 20 year old gang member to 'break some rocks' for 5 years does not model them into decent members of society - it pisses them off. Unless they have some sort of willingness to be helped, they usually end up frustrated and vengeful. The idea that punishment is the do all/end all to fixing problems is the reason we're in this terrible situation in the first place. Why are there more black people in prison than white people in the USA? It is because they're stupid? Violent? No, it's because most of them in prison come from poor backgrounds with no support, no help, and nobody willing to help them have a decent life. People with no respect for you cannot be punished in the long run. They're simply left to the old saying of "Throw them in prison - they'll learn not to mess with us!"
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]Also, I'm getting tired of you completely disregarding the fact that [b]I am not saying all people are evil and need to be fully punished[/b]. So please, for the love of God:
a. Get that into your damn skull.
b. Read each of my posts twice, because I hate having to repeat myself as I am doing.
Yeah, I'm probably sounding like a complete dick, but I hate it when people try to argue against me with something I have already acknowledged and accepted.[/QUOTE]
Then I apologize.
Also, try not to take my swearing personally. I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm simply very passionate about it and I'm sick of people spewing the same tired arguments that don't add up in reality.
[QUOTE=David29;21696702]Except I'm not suggesting that criminals be sent to Auschwitz...
You're talking about torture - I'm talking about humane punishment.[/QUOTE]
I don't think there's any prison system that is carrying out something like that properly.
there would be a lot more crime if prison isnt seen as bad as it is
[QUOTE=Billiam;21699143]I don't think there's any prison system that is carrying out something like that properly.[/QUOTE]
You're right, there isn't. It just doesn't seem to work. I love the idea of sending young offenders to a 'boot camp' style prison, it just seems the governments are too scared of public backlash for 'cruelty to minors'
Why do you people even argue? Are you arguing about maths? Really? The numbers speak for themselves.
[QUOTE=saucekeg;21699184]there would be a lot more crime if prison isnt seen as bad as it is[/QUOTE]
Where are you getting this info?
[QUOTE=saucekeg;21699184]there would be a lot more crime if prison isnt seen as bad as it is[/QUOTE]
The door is to your left, shut it quietly.
Prison is still prison. If being watched 24/7 and having no freedom is 'better' than the outside world - there is something seriously wrong with society. Which there is. But if people can be supported properly it wouldn't be an issue.
[editline]08:47PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=acds;21699200]Why do you people even argue? Are you arguing about maths? Really? The numbers speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Who're you referring to?
[QUOTE=OvB;21685088]Prisons are suppose to be punishment for committing a crime. That's why they are cold, smelly and uninviting. You don't want to be there, therefore there's less incentive for committing a crime. This would never work in the States. So much blood would be spilt in the living room. You would have daily gang related shankings. And the houses for family stays could pose as a hostage threat as violent inmates tie up their family to negotiate release. OR even get drugs and weapons from them while meeting for extended periods of time.
Maybe after years of working it in there, but just throwing the current inmates in a prison like this would likely have negative side effects.[/QUOTE]
except it doesn't, Norway has the lowest crime rates and most inmates become productive members of society if they're released
[editline]08:50PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeddy;21685617]Criminals rationalize their acts before they commit them. They think they have done good. If you give them amenities that are in all likely hood probably better than what they already have, they'll just see it as a reward for their actions. Criminals repeat because they get a thrill from it. Its a psychological issue. Non repeaters are the result of instantaneous action. A guy who robs a store at gunpoint because he lost his job did it because of a momentary lapse in reasoning brought about by extreme emotional imbalances. A guy who robs stores at gun point multiple times has naturally corrupt reasoning capabilities and will continue regardless of outside influence. The only exception to this rule is the homeless. In the U.S., many areas have trouble with the homeless repeatedly committing minor crimes just for temporary incarceration.This is because they live in a near constant state of emotional distress and in horrible conditions. The conditions in many jails and prisons are almost always better than their normal lives.[/QUOTE]
thanks Freud, everyone, throw away statistics, Zeddy is laying down the law bredas
[editline]08:50PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Chippay;21685704]you are so god damn dumb i don't even know where to begin[/QUOTE]
(can i add he thinks PMC's should replace the military because they're much better and all pitbull's should be put down?)
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;21699248]
Who're you referring to?[/QUOTE]
To anyone saying that the "You will be raped and stabbed" system works better than this one (meant as the one in Halden).
Man, time to reenact Postal in Norway.
I haz plan.
First, put the criminal in a nice, rehab prison like this one.
Then, put them in a hellhole if they re-offend.
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