[QUOTE=NoDachi;42304436]News just in: Emperor Scorpious II doesn't think conscription is servitude. And infact is completely voluntary.[/QUOTE]
You're a terrible debater but at least don't degenerate into shitposting.
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42304460]So we should let kids stay at home if they dont want to go to school?[/QUOTE]
Going to school until you're old enough to make your own educated decisions and support yourself is obviously the same as training for 6months to kill people and potentially going to war.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42304441]Your argument is that forced civil service, which the military is under, is against basic human rights.
Jury Duty is a forced Civil Service. Forced Community Service hours is forced civil service. Hell, spending jail time is forced civil service as you're forcibly removed from where you live into a location where you've lost a good number of your rights.
There are plenty of schools that make community service compulsory for graduation.
We live for a long enough time that two years spent training in the expectation of Total War, is not that big of a deal.
Also Taxes are required for the government but I don't get to pick and choose where the money I pay goes. That's my fucking money, I want it to go the EPA and Education. But I don't get to decide that.[/QUOTE]
but we need schools and jury service
we don't need conscription
Why would you get to pick where tax money is spent? Apart from electing people to spend it for you? Its not ~your money~ if you no longer own it anyway.
[QUOTE=Scrappa;42304482]Going to school until you're old enough to make your own educated decisions and support yourself is obviously the same as training for 6months to kill people and potentially going to war.[/QUOTE]
You have some serious misunderstandings of the military if you think their sole purpose is killing people.
For example:
[url]http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/09/23/cdot-national-guard-hustle-to-repair-flood-damaged-roads/[/url]
[url]http://www.army.mil/article/90599/[/url]
[url]http://www.army.mil/article/44368/[/url]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42304494]You have some serious misunderstandings of the military if you think their sole purpose is killing people.[/QUOTE]
who said sole purpose? it is a purpose though
Apparently the military only serves to kill. Guess all those times countries aided other countries in disasters and also those other services like the fire fighters aren't included or don't matter.
Why bother anymore
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42304494]You have some serious misunderstandings of the military if you think their sole purpose is killing people.[/QUOTE]
I've done plenty of volunteer work for the Royal Devonshire Yeomanry, I understand the purpose of the military thanks.
[QUOTE=Scrappa;42304541]I've done plenty of volunteer work for the Royal Devonshire Yeomanry, I understand the purpose of the military thanks.[/QUOTE]
Do you also understand that maybe a military in a different country from yours functions differently?
Guess not, only YOUR experiences and knowledge matter in any discussion, that's how SH works.
If you think that those conscripted into the Swiss Military for 6months won't be learning how to kill and fight you're seriously retarded.
[QUOTE=Scrappa;42304482]Going to school until you're old enough to make your own educated decisions and support yourself is obviously the same as training for 6months to kill people and potentially going to war.[/QUOTE]
If you dont want to go to the army, go to the civil services.
[QUOTE=Scrappa;42304566]If you think that those conscripted into the Swiss Military for 6months won't be learning how to kill and fight you're seriously retarded.[/QUOTE]
Of course they are. But that's by far not the only thing they learn.
[QUOTE=Scrappa;42304566]If you think that those conscripted into the Swiss Military for 6months won't be learning how to kill and fight you're seriously retarded.[/QUOTE]
No one said that. You are just coming off like that is the only thing they do. You know the military is also used to help in times of catastrophies like floods?
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42304610]No one said that. You are just coming off like that is the only thing they do. You know the military is also used to help in times of catastrophies like floods?[/QUOTE]
so why does that justify conscription
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42304610]No one said that. You are just coming off like that is the only thing they do. You know the military is also used to help in times of catastrophies like floods?[/QUOTE]
why do you need a conscripted military to do that? is there something specific to the ability to kill without feeling that makes it essential for aid work?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42304637]so why does that justify conscription[/QUOTE]
In a small country like Switzerland, it's to ensure that in case of an emergency, that there's always enough trained people to secure and protect the rest of the people. Be that a military, a natural or a man-made hazard.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42303996]I'm guessing you're opposed to all forms of taxation as well?[/QUOTE]
Taxation doesn't take away any of my time, it stands along side what I want to do in my life, and it doesn't even take a huge amount of what I make.
[QUOTE=Bentham;42304012]Don't forget compulsory education through a certain year.[/QUOTE]
The reason for this is because kids are still developing their brains and can't make their own decisions yet, and are being taught [I]required[/I] information to function in society, get a job, etc. We even recognize when kids have developed their brains enough to make their own decisions, and at a certain age you are allowed to quit school before the process is completed if that is your real desire. Conscription is making you do work which you might absolutely not want to do because you wish to do something else in life, and you are an adult and completely able to make your own decisions, but aren't allowed to because the government is making you do compulsory work.
So the basics of this is:
Underdeveloped mind to make decisions, being taught required information to work in society, allowed to quit when at the age when the mind can make well informed decisions
vs.
Completely developed mind capable of making well informed decisions that affect ones life, being forced to do something that you may or may not want to do since you could spend that time doing what you want to do in life, compulsory despite this person being an adult and not a child who doesn't understand how the world works.
[QUOTE=rosthouse;42304671]In a small country like Switzerland, it's to ensure that in case of an emergency, that there's always enough trained people to secure and protect the rest of the people. Be that a military, a natural or a man-made hazard.[/QUOTE]
But you sound like if they got rid of conscription you won't have any more soldiers. Like at all.
I'm not for forcing anybody into anything, but I'm not gonna lie, being forced into the military did me personally alot of good.
I'm all for conscription in a small neutral country like Switzerland or Ireland.
Ensures there's always a well trained service in times of a national emergency, keeps a national discipline as well as jobs, a cultural and social scene too.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42304723]But you sound like if they got rid of conscription you won't have any more soldiers. Like at all.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I fear that would be the case. When you talk with teenagers here, a lot of them aren't looking forward to it. Afterwards, they always look fondly back on their time in the army.
[QUOTE=rosthouse;42304876]Personally, I fear that would be the case. When you talk with teenagers here, a lot of them aren't looking forward to it. Afterwards, they always look fondly back on their time in the army.[/QUOTE]
In the UK, conscription hurt people wanting to actually join the army. Because it made many people hate it.
Plus all the suicides ect.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42304930]In the UK.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42304951][/QUOTE]
And Taiwan, Korea, Russia and pretty much any other conscription country.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42304983]And Taiwan, Korea, Russia and pretty much any other conscription country.[/QUOTE]
Care to shown me that?
And when have you ever been a part of Portugal's conscription, or any other nations conscription other than the UK?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42304930]In the UK, conscription hurt people wanting to actually join the army. Because it made many people hate it.
Plus all the suicides ect.[/QUOTE]
Just read some statistics about suicides in the swiss army. In the years 2004-2008 we had a suicide rate of 0.63 suicides per year, which was 3 times less than in the rest of the population. So I don't think that's that big of a factor.
Mind you, during the conscription, they do a lot of psychic test, people with suicidal tendencies are not taken into service.
And the in the swiss army, you don't have stuff like drill sergeants or anything like that. I see recruits every thursday in the local bars, it's a common sight. It's not like they are totaly cut of from the rest of the population. Also, they usually can go home on weekends.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
If you can read german, here's the sheet I've just read: [url]http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs/de/home/documentation/publication/factsheet/factsheet_v.parsys.9063.downloadList.71015.DownloadFile.tmp/factsheetsuizidarmeed.pdf[/url]
I voted for the initiative (= against the conscription) because forcing students to interrupt their studies for a year to join the army is bullshit.
Switzerland has roughly the same population as New York City. A country with such a small population needs to ensure that it has at least some semblance of a well-maintained infrastructure, with the community service option, that area is covered at all times, with the military option, you have fit citizens able to protect their country if something were to happen (as if Switzerland would actually declare war on anyone)
When you have so few people, making something like this voluntary runs the risk of all of these outlets being completely undermanned, especially the civil service areas. Yeah, it sucks, people have to give up a bit of time, but it benefits them and it benefits their neighbor.
Most importantly what people outside of Switzerland think doesn't matter so much, as the Swiss have already voted on the issue, and found that the benefits of conscription outweighed the cons enough to maintain it.
lotta people in this thread trying to reconcile their hatred of conscription because it is the government forcing you to do something, with their tolerance of systems like forced schooling, jury duty, taxation, and the countless other things that you are forced to do by the government
[QUOTE=Bentham;42305864]Switzerland has roughly the same population as New York City. A country with such a small population needs to ensure that it has at least some semblance of a well-maintained infrastructure, with the community service option, that area is covered at all times, with the military option, you have fit citizens able to protect their country if something were to happen (as if Switzerland would actually declare war on anyone)
When you have so few people, making something like this voluntary runs the risk of all of these outlets being completely undermanned, especially the civil service areas. Yeah, it sucks, people have to give up a bit of time, but it benefits them and it benefits their neighbor.
Most importantly what people outside of Switzerland think doesn't matter so much, as the Swiss have already voted on the issue, and found that the benefits of conscription outweighed the cons enough to maintain it.[/QUOTE]
switzerland can maintain its infrastructure without infringing on it's citizens' liberty. no one is going to declare war on switzerland. its pointless.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;42306064]switzerland can maintain its infrastructure without infringing on it's citizens' liberty. no one is going to declare war on switzerland. its pointless.[/QUOTE]
Which is why I mentioned OTHER civil services provided by conscripts [I]besides[/I] active military duty.
And trying to state definitively that these civil service positions currently filled by conscripts can be easily filled after an abolishment of conscription without any data to prove it really doesn't contribute much.
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