Switzerland votes to maintain conscription - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;42306055]lotta people in this thread trying to reconcile their hatred of conscription because it is the government forcing you to do something, with their tolerance of systems like forced schooling, jury duty, taxation, and the countless other things that you are forced to do by the government[/QUOTE] none of which restrict freedom to the same extent conscription does. [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Bentham;42306085]Which is why I mentioned OTHER civil services provided by conscripts [I]besides[/I] active military duty. And trying to state definitively that these civil service positions currently filled by conscripts can be easily filled after an abolishment of conscription without any data to prove it really doesn't contribute much.[/QUOTE] well there's the fact that other countries that abolished conscription didnt fall into a state of turmoil immediately?

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42306095]well there's the fact that other countries that abolished conscription didnt fall into a state of turmoil immediately?[/QUOTE] My country did, lazyness everywhere, only people who constantly volunteer are teens, 18 year olds, same age you enter conscription. Mostly everyone is a selfish cunt who only thinks about themselves. And "none restrict", I doubt school doesn't restrict from doing what you want. Can't forget about jobs you have to take to make a living while you can't immediately go to your desired field. Edit: Abolishing conscription was because most older people join the military as a volunteer, enough people that there's not need of this law.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42306095]none of which restrict freedom to the same extent conscription does. [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] well there's the fact that other countries that abolished conscription didnt fall into a state of turmoil immediately?[/QUOTE] Other countries are other countries. Switzerland is massively different from larger nations because of its population size, tell me that this won't have an effect on the refilling of those suddenly vacant positions. I'm not arguing that if conscription is abolished that suddenly Switzerland will slide back into the dark ages, I'm arguing that not only does it provide benefits for those enlisted as well as those affected, but it's not hell on earth like a lot of people in this thread are claiming, hence why the Swiss population voted to retain it.

[QUOTE=Hellduck;42306095]none of which restrict freedom to the same extent conscription does. [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] well there's the fact that other countries that abolished conscription didnt fall into a state of turmoil immediately?[/QUOTE] Are you kidding? Forced schooling basically takes 12 years of your life

And don't say "It's different" because it isn't. You know, [I]besides[/I] the information you gathered.

Yup it's going to be great to be part of a cannon fodder army in few years

I think being conscripted in a country that never has wars wouldn't be so bad. Being conscripted and having to fight in some desert hellhole or patrol some dangerous border would be a different story.

[QUOTE=Scrappa;42304541]I've done plenty of volunteer work for the Royal Devonshire Yeomanry, I understand the purpose of the military thanks.[/QUOTE] Considering how many wars Britain has been involved in in the last 5 decades, It's not hard to understand why you think the military is for killing people. Because that's what the UK's military does. It hires folks who have misplaced patriotism and/or have no other job prospects and sends them off to kill people with darker skin.. to defend from... terrorism!! or something? The Swiss military has not fought a foreign war in 200 years. The fucking Peace Corps have been responsible for more deaths than Swiss military Who gives a shit if the "purpose" of military training is for killing. What an incredibly alarmist attitude. If the purpose of a defensive conscription is to maintain domestic peace and avoid international conflict, [B]and it does just that[/B], then what place do you have to decide that a defensive conscription is a ubiquitously bad thing? [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rangergxi;42306276]I think being conscripted in a country that never has wars wouldn't be so bad. Being conscripted and having to fight in some desert hellhole or patrol some dangerous border would be a different story.[/QUOTE] Thus "offensive" and "defensive" conscription are good terms to use. Nonetheless, look at the public outcry that happened with the Vietnam war draft; in a way it contributed to the overarching reasons that the US left Vietnam. Conscription jumpstarts public awareness and forces people less apathetic towards foreign affairs; as it's quite likely an impending foreign war would effect the lives of everybody in the country. Military duty should not be left to those who want to fight in wars, it breeds aggressiveness among the armed forces, and it breeds ultimate apathy among people who don't support foreign wars. Having a political/ideological divide between the military and civilian population is a bad idea, and defensive conscription breaks that divide.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;42306170]Are you kidding? Forced schooling basically takes 12 years of your life[/QUOTE] Conscription terms, ironically, are barely even a quarter of that, too.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42307182]Conscription terms, ironically, are barely even a quarter of that, too.[/QUOTE] Education is necessary to live in modern society. Conscription isn't. Also, you're an adult when you get conscripted, not a five year old kid like what the fuck how are they similar? This comparison between conscription and taxes/schooling/jury duty is so ridiculous I don't know who thought it was a good idea.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42307709]Education is necessary to live in modern society. Conscription isn't. Also, you're an adult when you get conscripted, not a five year old kid like what the fuck how are they similar? This comparison between conscription and taxes/schooling/jury duty is so ridiculous I don't know who thought it was a good idea.[/QUOTE] You don't need education after you're 18? Conscription also teaches you things, different things you learn in school, but they're still learning needs. AND IT'S NOT JUST[B] SHOOT TO KILL[/B] NEEDS.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42307709]Education is necessary to live in modern society. Conscription isn't. Also, you're an adult when you get conscripted, not a five year old kid like what the fuck how are they similar? This comparison between conscription and taxes/schooling/jury duty is so ridiculous I don't know who thought it was a good idea.[/QUOTE] So let's ignore an entire side of an argument because of someone's idea of 'necessary'. Conscription is beneficial in several ways, which have been discussed in this thread, many times by people who actually are Swiss, but these points are largely ignored in favor of the whole "God they are encroaching on freedom"

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42307182]Conscription terms, ironically, are barely even a quarter of that, too.[/QUOTE] you realize that your argument could easily be twisted into the government forcibly employing it's citizenry in literally any area or career, right with this false comparison fallacy shit I could justify the government sticking its population on an assembly line for a decade. I mean it's not like forced labor is different from taxes, right? Oh what, you don't think it's right to make all people aged 20-30 bake bricks 18 hours a day? I suppose you don't think that we should have a jury system either. Pft. Typical. I mean hey, it's only a decade! School is longer than that!

I feel conscription would help toward issues that are stated in this article. [url]http://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2012/12/12/pages/7919/index.xml?page=1[/url]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42307762]you realize that your argument could easily be twisted into the government forcibly employing it's citizenry in literally any area or career, right with this false comparison fallacy shit I could justify the government sticking its population on an assembly line for a decade. I mean it's not like forced labor is different from taxes, right? Oh what, you don't think it's right to make all people aged 20-30 bake bricks 18 hours a day? I suppose you don't think that we should have a jury system either. Pft. Typical. I mean hey, it's only a decade! School is longer than that![/QUOTE] The point I think he was making is that the investment made by citizens involved in Switzerland's conscription system aren't having their lives ruined by this. It's a compulsory service that benefits Switzerland's defense readiness, or their own civilian population through the service track that people with moral issues with the military can choose to do. The Swiss government isn't putting a gun in a kid's hands and telling them to go to the Middle East, and a lot of the posts speaking out against seem to make some sort of argument that this is exactly what this is.

Funnily enough, I never once said that conscription is a necessity. I've only argued that it has a greater benefit to its society, especially if it's a democratic one, than cons.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42307752]You don't need education after you're 18?[/QUOTE] That's up to the individual, because, if you haven't noticed, in a free country you get to decide what's best for yourself when you become an adult. [quote]Conscription also teaches you things, different things you learn in school, but they're still learning needs. AND IT'S NOT JUST[B] SHOOT TO KILL[/B] NEEDS.[/QUOTE] Yes, military service can be beneficial. No, that doesn't make it okay to force people into it. End of story. Seriously with this logic you can force people into literally anything as long as it's "beneficial" (and the only person who can decide if they benefit from it is the person doing it).

[QUOTE=Bentham;42307758]So let's ignore an entire side of an argument because of someone's idea of 'necessary'. Conscription is beneficial in several ways, which have been discussed in this thread, many times by people who actually are Swiss, but these points are largely ignored in favor of the whole "God they are encroaching on freedom"[/QUOTE] So now we're just ignoring whether or not something is even necessary. Great. This is a wonderful precedent you're following, I can't see how it could possibly go wrong. We're also ignoring the guy who said quite emphatically that he thought the army sucked, but hey he's just a whiner. His opinion doesn't count. It's for his own good, right?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42307796]Funnily enough, I never once said that conscription is a necessity. I've only argued that it has a greater benefit to its society, especially if it's a democratic one, than cons.[/QUOTE] Not only that, but I believe Swiss citizens are actually compensated for the time spent in the required service, so it's not like slavery, which another poster tried to liken this to.

[QUOTE=The mouse;42293976]But you must agree that it's good that the people are instilled with a good work ethic, community values and charity at a young age as well as providing valuble skills and a workforce.[/QUOTE] And this can only be achieved through the military?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42307809] Yes, military service can be beneficial. No, that doesn't make it okay to force people into it. End of story. Seriously with this logic you can force people into literally anything as long as it's "beneficial" (and the only person who can decide if they benefit from it is the person doing it).[/QUOTE] Don't you fucking "End of story" without reading everything that has been said in the thread and actually proving contrary. The Swiss VOTED YES, 73% YES. Not everyone has the same opinion but the majority in the country did. "End of story" my ass, you are forced to do a lot of things in life that you don't want to, why is conscription different?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42307820]So now we're just ignoring whether or not something is even necessary. Great. This is a wonderful precedent you're following, I can't see how it could possibly go wrong. We're also ignoring the guy who said quite emphatically that he thought the army sucked, but hey he's just a whiner. His opinion doesn't count. It's for his own good, right?[/QUOTE] Why are you taking everything stated by people disagreeing with you to such an extreme? Next you're going to compare me to Hitler? In fact, the entire second half of your post isn't even remotely close to anything I've said, you're exaggerating my argument to make me seem like some kind of asshole for having a different belief about this matter. Wanna try this again? [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=amute;42307840]And this can only be achieved through the military?[/QUOTE] You don't have to go into the military, as stated several times, you can opt out into community service instead.

[QUOTE=Bentham;42307824]Not only that, but I believe Swiss citizens are actually compensated for the time spent in the required service, so it's not like slavery, which another poster tried to liken this to.[/QUOTE] They are, and the money they receive is tax-free. [b]Edit:[/b] Was wrong about the second part, see below.

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42307863]They are, and the money they receive is tax-free.[/QUOTE] So they receive money from free lessons and learning properly how helping others is good. [I]SLAVERY![/I]

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42307863]They are, and the money they receive is tax-free.[/QUOTE] Just checked again, I was wrong about the tax-free part. But considering that you don't pay for food, a bed and other things, it's still good money.

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42308015]Just checked again, I was wrong about the tax-free part. But considering that you don't pay for food, a bed and other things, it's still good money.[/QUOTE] The fact of the matter is, they still get paid. What an excellent plus to put on a work resume.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42307847]Don't you fucking "End of story" without reading everything that has been said in the thread and actually proving contrary. The Swiss VOTED YES, 73% YES. Not everyone has the same opinion but the majority in the country did. "End of story" my ass, you are forced to do a lot of things in life that you don't want to, why is conscription different?[/QUOTE] All I'm getting from you is that it's okay to force people to do something because "it's for their own good." Am I wrong?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308092]All I'm getting from you is that it's okay to force people to do something because "it's for their own good." Am I wrong?[/QUOTE] Children don't want to school, therefore it's wrong to force them to learn. Is this what you are saying? You don't want to work for the army? Well, choose civil service or civil protection. It's an alternative that gets you paid and you still learn that being selfish is wrong. Something a lot of people don't know nowadays and only try to profit for their own good without knowing how it'll affect others. ALSO, 73% OF SWITZERLAND WANTS TO BE FORCED TO IT. JUST SAYING, MAYBE THEY'RE CRAZY AND DON'T LIKE FREEDOM.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42308123]Children don't want to school, therefore it's wrong to force them to learn. Is this what you are saying? You don't want to work for the army? Well, choose civil service or civil protection. It's an alternative that gets you paid and you still learn that being selfish is wrong. Something a lot of people don't know nowadays and only try to profit for their own good without knowing how it'll affect others.[/QUOTE] Answer my question first. Cool what if I don't want to do any of those things? [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] Dude so fucking what if 73% of Switzerland wants it? That still leaves over a quarter of the population who don't. That's a lot of fucking people if you haven't noticed. [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] Apparently the concept that toddlers (who don't know how to think for themselves which is WHY they go to school) are different from fully grown men who can make their own decisions is foreign to you.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294134]#realtalk you're justifying conscription by using climate change the mental gymnastics of a bowl-cut autist[/QUOTE] You are -not- a nice person.