Switzerland votes to maintain conscription - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42308685]73% of 46%. Not everyone votes.[/QUOTE] That's an entierly different problem, although it does have implications on some votes. We have so many votes, it's kinda scary at times. Next will be held on the 24. November already :v: [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] I'm catching some sleep guys, it's been interesting.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42308681]And then you pick up keywords and twisted them up so you can try and reconcile your hatred towards this. SH in a nutshell, I should have learned with Dass not to bother anymore.[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you even talking about? 46 percent of the country voted. Of that 46 percent, 73 percent voted in favor. How is that in any way twisted? I couldn't be more fucking clinical if I were speaking in binary.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42308720]I made a point that it would help prevent social indifference to war, as stated in this [url=http://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2012/12/12/pages/7919/index.xml?page=1]article[/url], but everyone chose to just ignore my post.[/QUOTE] "It will make you care about war! It's for your own good!" Try again.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308747]"It will make you care about war! It's for your own good!" Try again.[/QUOTE] Was that suppose to be a counterargument?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308747]"It will make you care about war! It's for your own good!" Try again.[/QUOTE] Service. Not war. Service.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308777]Service. Not war. Service.[/QUOTE] [quote]I made a point that it would help prevent social indifference to [B]war[/B][/quote]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42308793][/QUOTE] One of several points. It does not invalidate the others.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42308768]Was that suppose to be a counterargument?[/QUOTE] You're saying that conscription will prevent people from being indifferent to war. You're arguing for servitude because it will benefit the public.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308813]One of several points. It does not invalidate the others.[/QUOTE] you know i'm still really interested to know if you seriously think wealth redistribution is worse than conscription

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308823]You're saying that conscription will prevent people from being indifferent to war. You're arguing for servitude because it will benefit the public.[/QUOTE] My god you go to such extremes.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308813]One of several points. It does not invalidate the others.[/QUOTE] Hey I just remembered you didn't answer my question (perhaps you missed it this thread is moving fast). Are you okay with forcing people to go to college/post-secondary education? [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42308829]My god you go to such extremes.[/QUOTE] Was that supposed to be a counterargument?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42308824]you know i'm still really interested to know if you seriously think wealth redistribution is worse than conscription[/QUOTE] Do you consider wealth redistribution a positive thing? [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308834]Hey I just remembered you didn't answer my question (perhaps you missed it this thread is moving fast). Are you okay with forcing people to go to college/post-secondary education?[/QUOTE] If they give you a free ride the whole way, sure. If.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308868]Do you consider wealth redistribution a positive thing?[/QUOTE] If I were forced to choose between wealth redistribution and conscription I do believe I'd choose the former

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308834] Was that supposed to be a counterargument?[/QUOTE] No, because how can I counter something that wasn't an argument to begin with but just the sound of a broken record?

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308868]If they give you a free ride the whole way, sure. If.[/QUOTE] Then we're back to square one. What if they decide further education isn't for them and they'd like to pursue some other path? "It's for their own good what you don't want to be educated?" My entire issue boils down to this: You're arguing that suspending someone's personal freedom of choice is justifiable because what they're being forced into is beneficial. [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42308920]No, because how can I counter something that wasn't an argument to begin with but just a sound of a broken record?[/QUOTE] How was it extreme? Please clarify for me what you mean then, instead of posting about how you can't post.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42308888]If I were forced to choose between wealth redistribution and conscription I do believe I'd choose the former[/QUOTE] That's for you to decide. Me? I'd go along with it as long as they were fair about it.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308938]That's for you to decide. Me? I'd go along with it as long as they were fair about it.[/QUOTE] What if it wasn't fair, but still beneficial?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42308924]Then we're back to square one. What if they decide further education isn't for them and they'd like to pursue some other path? "It's for their own good what you don't want to be educated?" My entire issue boils down to this: You're arguing that suspending someone's personal freedom of choice is justifiable because what they're being forced into is beneficial.[/QUOTE] As much as we like to preach about inalienable rights, the fact of the matter is that freedom is a privilege. If the army needs soldiers (for defense only, mind you. I don't like the idea of people being forced to take part in crap like Iraq), they need soldiers. If educated professionals are needed bad enough to force the government to act, then they better have a damn good justification. As it stands, I don't trust the US government with something like that. Switzerland though...

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42308991]freedom is a privilege[/QUOTE] :/ [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] I know you're saying that's the way things are and to a degree I agree with you but why is that okay?

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42309007]:/ [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] I know you're saying that's the way things are and to a degree I agree with you but why is that okay?[/QUOTE] It's neither okay, nor is it bad. It's simply a fact.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42309117]It's neither okay, nor is it bad. It's simply a fact.[/QUOTE] No the fact that freedom is a privilege is very much a bad thing.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42309182]No the fact that freedom is a privilege is very much a bad thing.[/QUOTE] So is the fact that tornados exist. Before you argue semantics, keep in mind that freedom is affordable as long as the nation in question isn't under serious threat. Once that happens though, you're faced with the choice of either violating some of your principles, or watching serious harm come to your people. Like Hamlet said, "to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing, end them". Under those circumstances, you have two choices, neither of which is right. It's really dependent on the situation. Places like Estonia, which share a border with Russia, need to be prepared for the possibility of invasion. Places like the United States, which face no serious threat that cannot be countered by a volunteer force, have no need of conscription. Switzerland is an odd case. They don't absolutely need it, but they've been doing it for a very very long time. It's tradition, and tradition is a powerful motivator for the continuation of many practices.

This is literally an argument of subjective opinion now. This is compulsory service but it isn't slavery, you're paid for your work, you get life experience, you serve your neighbor, and you can choose the defensive military aspect, or a community service aspect. For a small nation, this keeps these positions filled, and it ensures that Switzerland is capable if God-forbid they were ever attacked. You can't be fired from your job and your employer is even compensated during your time away from work. You aren't on active duty or anything, it's a short period of time spread out over the course of a few years I believe, then you are released and go on with your life. But, some people don't like that and don't want to be 'told what to do'. So we disagree and that's the end. I highly doubt Sgt will have his mind changed any more than my mind will be changed, so now people are just arguing the same points over and over.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294092]It cuts across class lines. The Wealthy have to mingle with the poor. That's more than enough bubble popping for me.[/QUOTE] try telling that to sandhurst

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293772]First, you have to understand that the swiss army will never, ever engage in a fight, unless to defend themselves or the country. So it's not that you are forced to fight. Second, you don't have to go in the military if you have ethical problems with operating a gun. In that case, you get to do something called civil serivces (Zivildienst), where you do stuff like working in hospitals, retirement homes or similar things. There's a third service, civil protection (Zivilschutz) where you do support in case of catastrophes and such (I'm in that service). Third, and this is my own opinion. Our gouverment does a lot for giving everyone a good education. We have great public schools, and everyone that really wants to can usually go to an university. I think of the army, and the other mentioned services, as supporting that system.[/QUOTE] Goddamn I wish the United States was like this, and education wasn't tears-inducing expensive.

I have the feeling that some people here are really egostical, and don´t want to contribute to society as long as they don´t have anything to gain from it (which is bullshit because you get money for your service, as well as some skills and experience). And again, if you don´t want to join the army (because some people here really think killing other humans is all you learn there), you can join the civil services.

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42309117]It's neither okay, nor is it bad. It's simply a fact.[/QUOTE]No, it isn't. Freedom, liberty, is a right but like all rights it can be taken or given away. How much do you want to let others take away from you, in exchange for whatever services they promise? That's ultimately the question, and looking at it in any other way is foolish. On the issue of conscription, that question has to be asked, and apparently 73% of Swiss voters (who did vote) found that the limited amount of time an individual's free choice is suspended is worth the promised and perceived benefits. Personally, I am undecided on the issue itself. On one hand, the concept of forcing adult, fully legal citizens into serving in an institution that they may or may not agree with doesn't sit well with me. On the other, I can easily see the benefits of conscription, especially for a smaller country. All the benefits that any society, large or small, would gain are enough to make me entirely undecided on the matter, rather than firmly against.

[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42312859]I have the feeling that some people here are really egostical, and don´t want to contribute to society as long as they don´t have anything to gain from it (which is bullshit because you get money for your service, as well as some skills and experience). And again, if you don´t want to join the army (because some people here really think killing other humans is all you learn there), you can join the civil services.[/QUOTE] "You can always gain back your money but you can never gain back your time" -shittyquotes

[QUOTE=Matrix374;42313004]"You can always gain back your money but you can never gain back your time" -shittyquotes[/QUOTE] you would learn valuable life skills so it isnt really a waste of time

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42313003]Personally, I am undecided on the issue itself. On one hand, the concept of forcing adult, fully legal citizens into serving in an institution that they may or may not agree with doesn't sit well with me. On the other, I can easily see the benefits of conscription, especially for a smaller country. All the benefits that any society, large or small, would gain are enough to make me entirely undecided on the matter, rather than firmly against.[/QUOTE] Like I said before, it ultimately comes down to how far down the shitter the situation has gone.