Switzerland votes to maintain conscription - Polidicks

[QUOTE=draugur;42294050]The fact of the matter being that since Switzerland is a direct democracy, they really do get to decide if they want conscription or not. It's called a society and if you don't like it, you don't have to live in it.[/QUOTE] Except if people want to do it, why make it mandatory? [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=EcksDee;42294039]Nothing wrong with it IMO. Discipline and keeping in shape for some months.[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA[/media]

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294006]no its not institutions are not good at building character~ or what ever bullshit you believe[/QUOTE] Neither is letting people do whatever they want because then they wallow in their own bubble and fester and never go outside their bubble and learn about the world. [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294060]Except if people want to do it, why make it mandatory? [/QUOTE] They voted to make it mandatory?

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294071]Neither is letting people do whatever they want because then they wallow in their own bubble and fester and never go outside their bubble and learn about the world.[/QUOTE] You learn about the world by being menial rank and file and some state apparatus? [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;42294071]They voted to make it mandatory?[/QUOTE] tyranny of the majority ect ect

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294087]You learn about the world by being menial rank and file and some state apparatus?[/QUOTE] It cuts across class lines. The Wealthy have to mingle with the poor. That's more than enough bubble popping for me.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294071]They voted to make it mandatory?[/QUOTE] Right, and what about the people who voted no?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294060] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA[/media][/QUOTE] What's your point? I honestly don't get what point you're trying to make quoting me with that video. I am for national service no matter what kind of leading questions you ask me.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294092]It cuts across class lines. The Wealthy have to mingle with the poor. That's more than enough bubble popping for me.[/QUOTE] lmao so romantic whats the class divide in switzerland anyway buddy

[QUOTE=EcksDee;42294105]What's your point? I honestly don't get what point you're trying to make quoting me with that video. I am for national service no matter what kind of leading questions you ask me.[/QUOTE] What? Even when your country goes on a war of aggression?

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294087] tyranny of the majority ect ect[/QUOTE] We have to admit at one point that we're all part of a single society and that what our goal should be is to keep that society growing and alive. We face a global collective problem of Global Climate change, acting as individuals will do nothing if we don't act together. When it comes to someone's rights, Tyranny of the Majority is palpable, but would you say the same argument about corporations getting a say in politics even though technically there are more US citizens then corporations?

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294045]It doesn't help that these families are the only ones who actually give enough of a fuck to not just voice their displeasure but actually do something. There's a reason most people in the military end up becoming politically active afterward. They not only have a personal stake but they spent several years under oath protecting it. They also know how the bureaucracy works for the most part. There is also the fact that a nation wide forced conscription would punch the monetized lines we currently have in the face and force the wealthy to mingle with the poor. On a side note, I think one of the few reasons we're doing so badly against Global Warming is exactly the same reason that a few in the thread are championing, individualization is great until it actually starts hampering our ability to collective solve problems. The United States is a perfect case and point with our politics getting more and more polarized as the people are voting people in. Fun fact, money plays a role but at the end of the day its the US public that votes people in so blame them. They just don't care.[/QUOTE] I agree completely. Though sadly, I can definitely see an American conscription program being skewed where the poor and wealthy still stay apart. Either by having a "get enlisted or pay X amount" like they did in 1860s or having the wealth obtain higher ranks faster.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294108]lmao so romantic whats the class divide in switzerland anyway buddy[/QUOTE] lmao so cynical. I guess you want humanity to die one by one in a great single ball of fire. [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294123]I agree completely. Though sadly, I can definitely see an American conscription program being skewed where the poor and wealthy still stay apart. Either by having a "get enlisted or pay X amount" like they did in 1860s or having the wealth obtain higher ranks faster.[/QUOTE] Or they end up as officers as what happened in World War II, not to a great degree as the 1860's though.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294060]Except if people want to do it, why make it mandatory? [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA[/media][/QUOTE] I believe there would not be enough good people. As mentioned, a lot want to study, which is a good thing. I also fear that only the nutjobs would go voluntarily, so I think it's to keep some kind of balance. It's also a good way to meet people from different trades. You have the farmer, the programmer and the doctor sitting right next to each other. It's a great way to share problems, ideas and beer amongst everyone. I do understand that some people are not happy with it being mandatory, as shows the initiative itself. But I'm happy that our services still have such a big support.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294098]Right, and what about the people who voted no?[/QUOTE] 27% of people will just have to take part then. That's unfortunately how democracy works. If you make service voluntary then exactly 0% of people will go, no matter how many say they want to or would go. If you make it mandatory then Those who wanted it will be fine, those who didn't will just have to suck it up and do it.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294118]We have to admit at one point that we're all part of a single society and that what our goal should be is to keep that society growing and alive. We face a global collective problem of Global Climate change, acting as individuals will do nothing if we don't act together. When it comes to someone's rights, Tyranny of the Majority is palpable, but would you say the same argument about corporations getting a say in politics even though technically there are more US citizens then corporations?[/QUOTE] #realtalk you're justifying conscription by using climate change the mental gymnastics of a bowl-cut autist

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294098]Right, and what about the people who voted no?[/QUOTE] They can go into other civil services, as been stated already twice.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;42294133]27% of people will just have to take part then. That's unfortunately how democracy works. If you make service voluntary then exactly 0% of people will go, no matter how many say they want to or would go.[/QUOTE] This doesn't make any sense. People want to do national service, but they are incapable of joining up by themselves, and thus have to tell the government to force them to do it? [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294139]They can go into other civil services, as been stated already twice.[/QUOTE] Except this is still forced upon the person.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294134]#realtalk[/QUOTE] If you're not even going to discuss and instead act like a sarcastic bastard the entire time you're only making the problem worse. Oh, so you missed the metaphor too or how that was actually a response against the Tyranny of the Majority. You know, our electoral college is supposed to stop that. Do you think the US should keep it?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294139]They can go into other civil services, as been stated already twice.[/QUOTE] do you want to be forced into civil service?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294113]What? Even when your country goes on a war of aggression?[/QUOTE] Nice job bringing up a completely unrealistic situation. I'm Estonian, friend, our military is geared towards defense and holding ground, not taking it.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294156]do you want to be forced into civil service?[/QUOTE] I wouldn't mind it. In fact, I'm aiming at joining the national guard after college. The way I see it, it's sorta like paying taxes. You can't just sit in a society without contributing to it. (Though I have a feeling this bad analogy is going to bite me in the ass in this thread)

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293732]Why should one be forced to join the military?[/QUOTE] Seeing this from a decidedly American standpoint. Swiss government and army are nothing like what you have. [QUOTE=NoDachi;42294087]You learn about the world by being menial rank and file and some state apparatus?[/QUOTE] You see it that way. Many others see it as getting people personally invested in their government so that decisions actually matter to them (unlike the massive voter apathy of the USA). I find it interesting that AMERICA - LAND OF THE FREE has less social mobility, less equality in the justice system, and puts less decision making power in the hands of the voter and citizen than Switzerland does, yet you would accuse their style of government of tyranny. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294175]I wouldn't mind it. In fact, I'm aiming at joining the national guard after college. The way I see it, it's sorta like paying taxes. You can't just sit in a society without contributing to it. (Though I have a feeling this bad analogy is going to bite me in the ass in this thread)[/QUOTE] If not the army then conscription into the National Guard should be mandatory: every single citizen should be prepared for disasters and medical emergencies. How are we still living in a time when the vast majority of people living in areas prone to certain disasters still do not know how to deal with them? Or worse, that someone could die of something as simple as choking on food because no one in the immediate area knows simple first aid? To highlight the staggering lack of education and day-to-day know-how: every time we get a power outage here in Canada, some retards light their propane BBQs in their homes and die from carbon monoxide poisoning.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42294186]Seeing this from a decidedly American standpoint. Swiss government and army are nothing like what you have. You see it that way. Many others see it as getting people personally invested in their government so that decisions actually matter to them (unlike the massive voter apathy of the USA). I find it interesting that AMERICA - LAND OF THE FREE has less social mobility, less equality in the justice system, and puts less decision making power in the hands of the voter and citizen than Switzerland does, yet you would accuse their style of government of tyranny.[/QUOTE] Just because Switzerland is better isn't an excuse to defend conscription. You can dress it up how you like, but there are people being forced to do things they don't want to do by the state.

[QUOTE=FlakAttack;42294186]Seeing this from a decidedly American standpoint. Swiss government and army are nothing like what you have. You see it that way. Many others see it as getting people personally invested in their government so that decisions actually matter to them (unlike the massive voter apathy of the USA). I find it interesting that AMERICA - LAND OF THE FREE has less social mobility, less equality in the justice system, and puts less decision making power in the hands of the voter and citizen than Switzerland does, yet you would accuse their style of government of tyranny.[/QUOTE] the reason america sucks isn't because they don't have conscription

And the society does not work without you putting in your own work. Things like Social Security not working and our inability to repair our own infrastructure is for the same root reason as those here saying that conscription is bad. Its asking for volunteers. But who would want to volunteer, true those that do will do it with great vigor and joy but that doesn't mean they'll be enough. Government cannot function at all, especially a democratic one, without the work of the people. To demonize the collective whole and only focus on the individual actually spells the end of a functioning democracy. IF the people are not willing to work or vote, whose going to run it?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294175]I wouldn't mind it. In fact, I'm aiming at joining the national guard after college.[/QUOTE] okay but what about people who don't like the ones who think it shouldn't be a criminal offence not to serve the state directly.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294210]the reason america sucks isn't because they don't have conscription[/QUOTE] It would certainly help to a point.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294210]the reason america sucks isn't because they don't have conscription[/QUOTE] Its that the people don't give a shit about it. Armed Service has a funny way of making you give a shit what your country is doing when its your life on the line.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294207]Just because Switzerland is better isn't an excuse to defend conscription. You can dress it up how you like, but there are people being forced to do things they don't want to do by the state.[/QUOTE] It's a forced decision that, in my country at least, no-one who's taken part has ever put down or hated. Even if they were forced into doing it. Conscription builds character, gets you in shape and thinking for 8-11 months (in our case).

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294222]okay but what about people who don't like the ones who think it shouldn't be a criminal offence not to serve the state directly.[/QUOTE] Can say the same about paying taxes.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294238]Can say the same about paying taxes.[/QUOTE] Or following the law.