Switzerland votes to maintain conscription - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294229]Its that the people don't give a shit about it. Armed Service has a funny way of making you give a shit what your country is doing when its your life on the line.[/QUOTE] the world needs more nationalism right

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294207]Just because Switzerland is better isn't an excuse to defend conscription. You can dress it up how you like, but there are people being forced to do things they don't want to do by the state.[/QUOTE] This initiative to remove the conscription came from the people, not the gouverment. It was voted by the people that they want to keep it. So, it's strictly speaking a group of citizens asking the rest if they want to remove something, and the rest said no.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294246]the world needs more nationalism right[/QUOTE] The world needs more nationalism, we should be proud of our world and want to protect it. Tada.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294241]Or following the law.[/QUOTE] some laws are more dumb than others being forced to serve the state directly or be thrown in prison is a dumb law. wearing a seatbelt and paying taxes for the services you use isn't.

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;42294244]The whole purpose of the state is to force people to do things they don't want to do.[/QUOTE] The purpose of the state is to guarantee the safety of the rights and freedoms of its people. Having a military for protection is a part of that. If a society wants to maintain its rights and freedoms, it is each person's responsibility and duty to participate in maintaining the state - and in the military as an extension of that.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294252]some laws are more dumb than others being forced to serve the state directly or be thrown in prison is a dumb law. wearing a seatbelt and paying taxes for the services you use isn't.[/QUOTE] Except I don't use some services. Hell, I'll be paying taxes for the elderly soon enough. And if a law is dumb, you fight to get rid of it. Not passively aggressive bitch and groan on the internet like it fucking does something.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294251]The world needs more nationalism, we should be proud of our world and want to protect it. Tada.[/QUOTE] Ein Volk, ein Reich ect ect

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294210]the reason america sucks isn't because they don't have conscription[/QUOTE] Imagine several couch potatoes and fat neckbeards getting yelled at by very, very pissed drill sergeants telling them to FUCKING RUN, PRIVATE PYLE. Obesity rates would plummet in mere months.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294275]Except I don't use some services. Hell, I'll be paying taxes for the elderly soon enough. And if a law is dumb, you fight to get rid of it. Not passively aggressive bitch and groan on the internet like it fucking does something.[/QUOTE] your passively aggressively bitching and groaning on the internet that there isn't enough nationalism and conscription in the world to fight climate change get a grip

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42294207]Just because Switzerland is better isn't an excuse to defend conscription. You can dress it up how you like, but there are people being forced to do things they don't want to do by the state.[/QUOTE] Again, you're looking at it the wrong way. You are part of the state. Everyone else is part of the state. You are all part of a direct democracy where your votes count. The "state" and the "people" are literally interchangable at this point. The will of the state is literally the will of the people. You are serving your fellow countrymen, not some distant government that is blind to you. And remember that the state (and consequently the people) serve you as well. That service is a 2-way street. [QUOTE=NoDachi;42294222]okay but what about people who don't like the ones who think it shouldn't be a criminal offence not to serve the state directly.[/QUOTE] And yet you pay income tax to a government you don't even work for.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294281]Ein Volk, ein Reich ect ect[/QUOTE] Godwin's Law. Discussion is over.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294252]some laws are more dumb than others being forced to serve the state directly or be thrown in prison is a dumb law. wearing a seatbelt and paying taxes for the services you use isn't.[/QUOTE] Being free isn't a service we ought to pay into?

[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;42294292]Imagine several couch potatoes and fat neckbeards getting yelled at by very, very pissed drill sergeants telling them to FUCKING RUN, PRIVATE PYLE. Obesity rates would plummet in mere months.[/QUOTE] won't they just go into civil service?

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294298]your passively aggressively bitching and groaning on the internet that there isn't enough nationalism and conscription in the world to fight climate change get a grip[/QUOTE] I'm actually not complaining because I can't make you, as I myself don't have the ability, to do anything. I'm merely debating your position that individualization is the end all be all.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294308]won't they just go into civil service?[/QUOTE] Alright then, let's see those same fat dudes working as firefighters, and other stuff like that. It's not exactly a comfy job either.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294300]Godwin's Law. Discussion is over.[/QUOTE] You don't disagree that nationalism is one of the ills of the world?

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294308]won't they just go into civil service?[/QUOTE] hopefully not I think getting yelled at by a guy and exerting your body to its limits is way better than doing some stupid boring shit.

Conscription was wrong when in a dictatorship or monarchy or oligarchy. But when it's a democracy or a republic, conscription is a part of that government form. [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;42294320]You don't disagree that nationalism is one of the ills of the world?[/QUOTE] Strawman

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294246]the world needs more nationalism right[/QUOTE] I like how you're arguing against a motion made by a completely democratic society where EVERYONE has a voice equal to everyone else, yet somehow have the idea to call it more of a tyranny than the alternative in most other countries, a society ran by a very small minority of incredibly rich people. If individualism were the end all be all solution, we wouldn't have society in nearly all forms of life since the beginning of time. There's a reason that the more individualistic creatures have much lower populations and duration of species existence than species with a social mentality.

[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;42294318]Alright then, let's see those same fat dudes working as firefighters, and other stuff like that. It's not exactly a comfy job either.[/QUOTE] Fat dudes would be great as firefighters. They don't have to even use stairs, just fire poles. No hard work at all :v:

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294320]You don't disagree that nationalism is one of the ills of the world?[/QUOTE] I don't disagree. It can do terrible things in this world, but it also can do a lot of good. Nationalism lead to things like Social Security, welfare. 'These are my fellow Americans! I want them to be safe like me." Is nationalistic but not horrible. Like any idea, its how you use it that's dangerous. Its like saying Socialism is a horrible system because the Stalinists used it. No, its not.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294311]I'm merely debating your position that individualization is the end all be all.[/QUOTE] What does believing that the government shouldn't be able to force you into its military of other governmental services over the threat of criminality have anything to do with ~individualism~ as a philosophy or political view point. Conscription almost universally regarded as a bad thing by many different people.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;42294341]Only works for small nations, the us couldn't afford or handle this.[/QUOTE] With the size of our military budget? I find that hard to believe :v: [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;42294345] Conscription almost universally regarded as a bad thing by many different people.[/QUOTE] Generalized conjecture.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294345]What does believing that the government shouldn't be able to force you into its military of other governmental services over the threat of criminality have anything to do with ~individualism~ as a philosophy or political view point. Conscription almost universally regarded as a bad thing by many different people.[/QUOTE] Conscription is only viewed poorly in nations that have either a traumatic past with war or have an English background. Conscription wasn't see as bad in the Civil War or the Second World War. You're seeing this from a very firm, 'The culture I grew up with is right'. Which its not, it never was, it has its faults that we regularly argue about.

[QUOTE=Swilly;42294361]Conscription is only viewed poorly in nations that have either a traumatic past with war or have an English background. Conscription wasn't see as bad in the Civil War or the Second World War. You're seeing this from a very firm, 'The culture I grew up with is right'. Which its not, it never was, it has its faults that we regularly argue about.[/QUOTE] The War Between the States, I would say, wasn't exactly a great time for conscription to be popular. Just sayin' Look at the NYC riots, for example.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294345]What does believing that the government shouldn't be able to force you into its military of other governmental services over the threat of criminality have anything to do with ~individualism~ as a philosophy or political view point. Conscription almost universally regarded as a bad thing by many different people.[/QUOTE] It's not by 75% of the people in Switzerland :v: Also, I'm counting the days until we vote on that particular case again.

[QUOTE=The golden;42294379]Wow. Forcing people into military service against their will. FP really will defend the strangest shit.[/QUOTE] Hivemind mentality, blah blah blah. /endsarcasm

[QUOTE=The golden;42294379]Wow. Forcing people into military service against their will. FP really will defend the strangest shit.[/QUOTE] I find this stranger that non-Europeans are mostly the ones against this. Military service forcing you to defend your own country, giving you ways to protect yourself, your family and friends, building your character, giving someone the importance of hard work and compensation isn't the same as "Here's a gun, go invade that country."

[QUOTE=The golden;42294379]Wow. Forcing people into military service against their will. FP really will defend the strangest shit.[/QUOTE] It's like you didn't even fucking read the "THEY CAN OPT OUT AND DO CIVIL SERVICES" part. And it's not like they're sending them off to die in some war, they're just training them for a while and keeping them in reserve in case someone invades Switzerland (so uh, never) and bad shit starts to go down. Frankly I don't see why anyone should get their panties in a knot over this. The people are OK with it and voted to keep it. And everything's fine and life goes on as normal.

[QUOTE=The golden;42294379]Wow. Forcing people into military service against their will. FP really will defend the strangest shit.[/QUOTE] I'm so sorry that I'll defend the notion of a true democracy making decisions for its self, regardless of how I feel about them. If conscription if the price we pay for democracy, I'll live with conscription because I don't want to live in an aristocracy anymore anyway.