We have had conscription in finland since the civil war. It saved our asses against soviets and later germans. I told from the start to my captain there that i can serve full year if needed. Mostly because i wanted to show what i can do, to my older brother who was a year and ranked to an corporal.
I saw people from all points of life and backgrounds work together, it really brings people together even after it. Because we have all been there. We can discuss with our experience with almost everyone and feel a sense of connection we might otherwise not have.
Besides there are options for people who feel uneasy being around guns or simply dont have the health for army.
[QUOTE=draugur;42294438]I'm so sorry that I'll defend the notion of a true democracy making decisions for its self, regardless of how I feel about them. If conscription if the price we pay for democracy, I'll live with conscription because I don't want to live in an aristocracy anymore anyway.[/QUOTE]
why do you need conscription for democracy
most democratic countries god rid of forced service ages ago
[QUOTE=MrBacon;42293776]Conscription anywhere is retarded. We still got it, fun fun fun.[/QUOTE]
After reading through the post right above yours, I personally believe that in Switzerland, it's not that bad of an idea. If, however, this were someplace like the U.S., it'd be terrible.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294482]why do you need conscription for democracy
most democratic countries god rid of forced service ages ago[/QUOTE]
How is "others did it, so it's definitely good" any kind of argument?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294482]why do you need conscription for democracy
most democratic countries god rid of forced service ages ago[/QUOTE]
Conscription in my country was great, 18 year olds learned some common sense, like "maybe I should help that old lady cross the street" among other things, this isn't just forcing you how to use a gun and killing people, it's more than that.
Sure it's forced, you may not like it but somethings that are forced are for a greater good, like you know, school.
So women are not forced to any kind of civil service?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42294482]why do you need conscription for democracy
most democratic countries god rid of forced service ages ago[/QUOTE]
First you strawman now you ad populum
[QUOTE=FlashStock;42294534]So women are not forced to any kind of civil service?[/QUOTE]
Women are required. Its Asexual, every man and woman must do it.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=EcksDee;42294538]First you strawman now you ad populum[/QUOTE]
Expecting an ability to debate at Sensationalist Headlines, as well as any understanding of how governments work is to not be expected.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294546]Women are required. Its Asexual, every man and woman must do it.[/QUOTE]
Ah ok.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294546]Women are required. Its Asexual, every man and woman must do it.[/QUOTE]
No, it's actually only mandatory for men. Women can do it voluntarily.
[QUOTE=rosthouse;42294556]No, it's actually only mandatory for men. Women can do it voluntarily.[/QUOTE]
Weird. I thought it was for men and women. It might be another nation that does it.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294573]Weird. I thought it was for men and women. It might be another nation that does it.[/QUOTE]
Could be, I wouldn't know about that though.
Conscription would be stupid in the US, especially since the US might as well be a conglomeration of several different countries with how big and diverse it is. Living in Georgia is completely different to living in Oregon, with obvious exceptions (like using USD, taxes, federal laws, etc). Completely different groups of businessess, different state laws and ordinances that completely change how a state is compared to another (did you know Oregon requires gas stations to not be self-service?), etc.
The other big issues is that the US is largely not a neutral, isolated country. We are basically still considered a global superpower. We actively get involved in hot button regions around the world. Conscription would suck hardcore because you pretty much are guaranteed to get involved in some kind of minor foreign conflict. I mean, you can get involved in conflict under switzerland but its a far cry from the US where they send you overseas pretty much immediately versus playing defense or patrol duty or assisting when needed but not actively always fighting something.
Thirdly, our population dwarfs Switzerland's. We don't [I]need[/I] conscription like Switzerland might need conscription to make sure they actually have a standing army, relief force, defense force, etc ready.
[QUOTE=KorJax;42294608]Conscription would be stupid in the US, especially since the US might as well be a conglomeration of several different countries with how big and diverse it is. Living in Georgia is completely different to living in Oregon, with obvious exceptions (like using USD, taxes, federal laws, etc). Completely different groups of businessess, different state laws and ordinances that completely change how a state is compared to another (did you know Oregon requires gas stations to not be self-service?), etc.
The other big issues is that the US is largely not a neutral, isolated country. We are basically still considered a global superpower. We actively get involved in hot button regions around the world. Conscription would suck hardcore because you pretty much are guaranteed to get involved in some kind of minor conflict. I mean, you can get involved in conflict under switzerland but its a far cry from the US where they send you overseas pretty much immediately versus playing defense or patrol duty or assisting when needed but not actively always fighting something.
Thirdly, our population dwarfs Switzerland's. We don't [I]need[/I] conscription like Switzerland might need conscription to make sure they actually have a standing army, relief force, defense force, etc ready.[/QUOTE]
Its why I was toying around the thought of rationing.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294573]Weird. I thought it was for men and women. It might be another nation that does it.[/QUOTE]
That would be Israel
[QUOTE=KorJax;42294608]Conscription would be stupid in the US, especially since the US might as well be a conglomeration of several different countries with how big and diverse it is. Living in Georgia is completely different to living in Oregon, with obvious exceptions (like using USD, taxes, federal laws, etc). Completely different groups of businessess, different state laws and ordinances that completely change how a state is compared to another (did you know Oregon requires gas stations to not be self-service?), etc.
The other big issues is that the US is largely not a neutral, isolated country. We are basically still considered a global superpower. We actively get involved in hot button regions around the world. Conscription would suck hardcore because you pretty much are guaranteed to get involved in some kind of minor foreign conflict. I mean, you can get involved in conflict under switzerland but its a far cry from the US where they send you overseas pretty much immediately versus playing defense or patrol duty or assisting when needed but not actively always fighting something.
Thirdly, our population dwarfs Switzerland's. We don't [I]need[/I] conscription like Switzerland might need conscription to make sure they actually have a standing army, relief force, defense force, etc ready.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I would like to see American conscripts put into the state national guards or military reserves and save the rest for volunteers.
If anything, conscription would fix that "we're like a conglomerate of different countries". I'd sure like to see how how people make their way in other parts of the country. If anything, it'll get rid of state biases that people have, like Texans being far-right gun nuts or New Jersians being composed of 80% shit, 20% piss.
And as Swilly stated, it would make more people get involved with the government that passes laws over them. It'll surely get rid of voter apathy, at least to a point.
[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293772]
Third, and this is my own opinion. Our gouverment does a lot for giving everyone a good education. We have great public schools, and everyone that really wants to can usually go to an university. I think of the army, and the other mentioned services, as supporting that system.[/QUOTE]
conscription is pretty damn expensive, getting rid of it would mean even better schools and universities...
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294573]Weird. I thought it was for men and women. It might be another nation that does it.[/QUOTE]
Isreal.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;42294777]conscription is pretty damn expensive, getting rid of it would mean even better schools and universities...
[/QUOTE]
It's only expensive in the US.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294792]It's only expensive in the US.[/QUOTE]
And its only expensive becomes of PMCs and Research Contracts.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293997]So why need they be forced?[/QUOTE]
That is like asking why kids should be forced to go to school.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293946]Except I still don't want to be forced to do something I don't wish to do by the government.
Why not make it voluntary?[/QUOTE]
You must be completely anti-taxes then. I fail to see how defensive conscription/civil service is any different that paying taxes. You make a sacrifice for the good of the nation. It's the exact same thing.
You know what, we should just have volunteer professional jurors from now on do all the jury duty.
Forcing people to take part in their judicial system is too much work.
I'd love to see what people against this have to say now instead of leaving the argument, probably thinking this is some biased bullshit like everyone thinks SH is.
Keep in my mind, countries are different and so are the people, just because you think this and that doesn't make you know exactly what living in that country is like, that's why I'm only speaking for myself and my country.
I agree with you on some points about that. Diplomacy should hanlde other things and as a group we should push for people to have equal rights in every nation.
Things that make up the national fabric should be cherished though. Unfortunately, the US doesn't have that anymore.
The way I see it, there are times when conscription is a very bad thing - namely when the government itself is bad. Conscription under an autocrat is bad but in a republic/democracy, it's good.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;42294039]Nothing wrong with it IMO. Discipline and keeping in shape for some months.[/QUOTE]
Concepts far reaching for a FacePuncher.
I don't think the military, even with volunteers, forces people "into peak shape" like some muscle model as people are thinking. They get you to the bare minimum to get you healthily working.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42293732]Why should one be forced to join the military?[/QUOTE]
The concept of a volunteer military in a modern democratic nation is an extremely dangerous idea.
National defense should be a cooperative and social concept, one integral to maintaining a peaceful democratic nation. It should not a concept where you simply fuck lower middle class people into a socioeconomic position where they have little choice but to literally sell their personal freedom and join the military.
It's dangerous to form a national defense core out of people who decide they want to shoot at/blow up people for a living, [I]or aid others[/I] in their capacity to shoot/blow up people. When non-selective national conscription is practiced you wind up with a healthy mixed demographic of soldiers from a variety of political and ethnic backgrounds, and you're more likely to have a collective national conscience about the morality of invading other countries since everybody has a stake in the military and can't afford to be apathetic.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42295047]I don't think the military, even with volunteers, forces people "into peak shape" like some muscle model as people are thinking. They get you to the bare minimum to get you healthily working.[/QUOTE]And for most people I was in the army with, their condition goes straight back to normal afterwards. Hell, some don't get into shape even during the service.
oh wow you guys have no idea how ridiculous and cynical shit like this
[QUOTE=Explosions;42294828]You make a sacrifice for the good of the nation. It's the exact same thing.[/QUOTE]
sounds to me right now
then again, i couldnt possibly blame you - unlike me, youre not doing military service in switzerland right now
also yeah physical training (with the exception of the elite forces) isnt meant to make you fit for actual warfare obviously, its for breaking your free will and acts as a convenient way of collective punishment. its more harm than good for your fitness really
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