Switzerland votes to maintain conscription - Polidicks

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42295073]The concept of a volunteer military in a modern democratic nation is an extremely dangerous idea. National defense should be a cooperative and social concept, one integral to maintaining a peaceful democratic nation. It should not a concept where you simply fuck lower middle class people into a socioeconomic position where they have little choice but to literally sell their personal freedom and join the military. It's dangerous to form a national defense core out of people who decide they want to shoot at/blow up people for a living, [I]or aid others[/I] in their capacity to shoot/blow up people. When non-selective national conscription is practiced you wind up with a healthy mixed demographic of soldiers from a variety of political and ethnic backgrounds, and you're more likely to have a collective national conscience about the morality of invading other countries since everybody has a stake in the military and can't afford to be apathetic.[/QUOTE] Exactly. Better a conscription than a poverty draft.

[QUOTE=PootisSpencer;42295111]oh wow you guys have no idea how ridiculous and cynical shit like this sounds to me right now then again, i couldnt possibly blame you - unlike me, youre not doing military service in switzerland right now[/QUOTE] What unit?

[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;42293528]Their neutrality is also maintained by the fact that they have no useful land or ore rich areas at all[/QUOTE] Yeah it's just that they're filthy rich anyway.

Rate away and leave. It's pathetic how people rather lose their credibility than be open minded and understand others situations other than their own. I see a lot of good discussions in SH but it always ends up in: "I believe in this, therefore I am correct. What you say is biased." No matter how much valid explanations you give them, it's sad to see people like this. Just try and understand others peoples views for once, it's fucking disgusting. Excuse me but it's something that keeps happening and it's fucking annoying when justifiable things are shrugged off because of personal beliefs. Edit: And try actually make valid points for once instead of what's own your mind. Edit: Can't forget about people who want to "fit in" by thinking they're some kind of clever little group of people who know everything and think overused jokes are funny.

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42295128]What unit?[/QUOTE] logistics not going into details sorry also everyone goes through the same shit (basic training) anyway

[QUOTE=PootisSpencer;42295111]oh wow you guys have no idea how ridiculous and cynical shit like this sounds to me right now then again, i couldnt possibly blame you - unlike me, youre not doing military service in switzerland right now[/QUOTE] You have no idea how cynical it sounds to me when people tell me that I have to give my hard earned money to the government right now. But then again, you're not making minimum wage in America :( :( :(

[QUOTE=Explosions;42295198]You have no idea how cynical it sounds to me when people tell me that I have to give my hard earned money to the government right now. But then again, you're not making minimum wage in America :( :( :([/QUOTE] Or that everybody is forced to go to school Fucking fascists! Why do they get to decide that it's in the country's best interest for me to be educated and intelligent

Conscription the swiss way, seems to be the right way to go about it. As aforementioned, their stance means they're not going to engage in a war with anyone, aside from in defence. And if the country needs defending, pretty much everyone would have to participate, or suffer the wrath of the invaders (so you might as well learn how to fire a gun). If you still don't want to, you can also choose to pay an additional 4% tax, to skip the service altogether (if you're unemployed I guess you don't get this option, so you're practically being given a job instead).

[QUOTE=PootisSpencer;42295173]logistics not going into details sorry also everyone goes through the same shit (basic training) anyway[/QUOTE] No problem. And yeah, everyone has the same basic training, which I heard from lots of people sucks the most (as said, I'm Zivilschutz :v: ).

[QUOTE=Explosions;42295198]You have no idea how cynical it sounds to me when people tell me that I have to give my hard earned money to the government right now. But then again, you're not making minimum wage in America :( :( :([/QUOTE] that sucks dude, im sorry about that its just, how could you possibly defend a system enabling me to earn more than you (2000 $ a month right now) by getting yelled at and sitting around all day? Our military budget far outweighs any personal or national benefit the military provides right now

Another point for US conscription - just think of the wonderful gun safety courses most of the country would receive. That's by far not a bad thing at all.

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;42295232]Conscription the swiss way, seems to be the right way to go about it. [/QUOTE] TBH though Switzerland is probably the worst European example as to how to go about having national conscription. Scandinavia, Norway in particular (because gender equality) do it the best IMO.

[QUOTE=PootisSpencer;42295254]that sucks dude, im sorry about that its just, how could you possibly defend a system enabling me to earn more than you (2000 $ a month right now) by getting yelled at and sitting around all day? Our military budget far outweighs any personal or national benefit the military provides right now[/QUOTE] I'm actually with you on that one. I think the army needs quite a bit of restructuring and a reevaluation on what their actual job is.

"All able-bodied men" Great equality Switzerland, should be everyone or no one. Everyone who has the 20th century opinion that only men should be forced into conscription, just, go. North Korea and Israel have the right idea.

[QUOTE=SCopE5000;42295232]Conscription the swiss way, seems to be the right way to go about it. As aforementioned, their stance means they're not going to engage in a war with anyone, aside from in defence. And if the country needs defending, pretty much everyone would have to participate, or suffer the wrath of the invaders (so you might as well learn how to fire a gun). If you still don't want to, you can also choose to pay an additional 4% tax, to skip the service altogether (if you're unemployed I guess you don't get this option, so you're practically being given a job instead).[/QUOTE] switzerland does not owe its neutrality and peace to its armed forces. it also doesnt need "defending" in a conventional sense, not even the military denies that - the main defense tasks are air control and ensuring safety at large international events like the WEF. you can not actively choose to skip the service, although there are some proven ways of faking an illness so you dont ABSOLUTELY "have" to do it [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] Also basic training is piss poor, holy shit you guys should see some of the thirty year olds who are doing repetition courses. People cant even handle their guns anymore

[QUOTE=FPChris;42295346]"all able-bodied men" Great equality Switzerland.[/QUOTE] Had a conversation with a few female friends. All of them voted to keep the conscription. Me: "Actually, shouldn't only men vote on this?" Them: "No, this is a democracy, everyone is equal and should vote" Me: "If everyone's equal, shouldn't women be drafted as well?" Them: "Fuck no, the army is a mens thing" I was pissed, no chance of even one of them seeing how stupid it was :v:

[QUOTE=rosthouse;42295391]Had a conversation with a few female friends. All of them voted to keep the conscription. Me: "Actually, shouldn't only men vote on this?" Them: "No, this is a democracy, everyone is equal and should vote" Me: "If everyone's equal, shouldn't women be drafted as well?" Them: "Fuck no, the army is a mens thing" I was pissed, no chance of even one of them seeing how stupid it was :v:[/QUOTE] That's unfortunate that they see it that way, but it should really be a "too bad" situation for them. It's likely you'd find just as many women who disagree with them anyways, so two people isn't exactly a proper sample demographic.

Good on the swiss, with such support it really shows that they must be doing something right.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42295414]That's unfortunate that they see it that way, but it should really be a "too bad" situation for them. It's likely you'd find just as many women who disagree with them anyways, so two people isn't exactly a proper sample demographic.[/QUOTE] Of course not, just some friends trying to piss me off :v:

Military service in switzerland more like hanging out with sexists while slowly descending into alcoholism

I am astounded by the number of people here supporting conscription.

[QUOTE=PootisSpencer;42295365]switzerland does not owe its neutrality and peace to its armed forces. it also doesnt need "defending" in a conventional sense, not even the military denies that - the main defense tasks are air control and ensuring safety at large international events like the WEF. you can not actively choose to skip the service, although there are some proven ways of faking an illness so you dont ABSOLUTELY "have" to do it [editline]24th September 2013[/editline] Also basic training is piss poor, holy shit you guys should see some of the thirty year olds who are doing repetition courses. People cant even handle their guns anymore[/QUOTE] Well you don't go to logistics to expect any physical challange, do you? I was in the infantry and had a blast there. Not only did it bring me to my physical limit, it also thought me some new stuff like map-reading, First aid, some basic self defense and lastly a bunch of new friends. Don't forget the opportunity to have your driver license stacked with new symbols which otherwise would cost you a fortune of time and money. Downsides are too many if you go to the military and in all honesty if you don't wanna do the service there are thousand ways to get dropped out. looking back I don't regret it at all. It's fun and you get a free rifle. What else do you want?

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295528]I am astounded by the number of people here supporting conscription.[/QUOTE] Soooooo have you got any better alternatives to a conscription army in a small country (where there is always a lack of capital, so having a professional army falls out of the question)? Don't leave us hanging on your genius solution to this problem, man.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295528]I am astounded by the number of people here supporting conscription.[/QUOTE] I'm astounded by the number of people who come in, drop a dumb statement like that and give no points on why others are wrong.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295528]I am astounded by the number of people here supporting conscription.[/QUOTE] Again, non-European, living in a big country, leaves a comment and provides no explanation. Good job.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42295568]I'm astounded by the number of people who come in, drop a dumb statement like that and give no points on why others are wrong.[/QUOTE] Well other people have pointed it out really. I just think willing recruits would make better soldiers than conscripted civilians who have no interest in partaking in a war. [editline]a[/editline] Plus I think that oneself should choose to join the military, not the government.

[QUOTE=SwizzChees;42295544]Well you don't go to logistics to expect any physical challange, do you? I was in the infantry and had a blast there. Not only did it bring me to my physical limit, it also thought me some new stuff like map-reading, First aid, some basic self defense and lastly a bunch of new friends. Don't forget the opportunity to have your driver license stacked with new symbols which otherwise would cost you a fortune of time and money. Downsides are too many if you go to the military and in all honesty if you don't wanna do the service there are thousand ways to get dropped out. looking back I don't regret it at all. It's fun and you get a free rifle. What else do you want?[/QUOTE] yeah we watched that propaganda movie too lmao okay fuck me for trying to go with something chill right? at least i can browse the internet or prepare for my studies from time to time instead of doing pushups all day. i hate guns now anyway so like at least acknowledge that what you did only was beneficial on a personal level (and thats only because you fit right in with the military mindset). many people suffer all the way through their military service, and its not because they cant handle it or whatever bs their superiors make up

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295610]Well other people have pointed it out really. I just think willing recruits would make better soldiers than conscripted civilians who have no interest in partaking in a war.[/QUOTE] But this isn't about going to war, it's about defending the country something that would surely make someone interested if their family and friends lives are in danger. Fucking jesus [QUOTE]Plus I think that oneself should choose to join the military, not the government.[/QUOTE] Direct Democracy, the people chose too. How the fuck do you even disagree with this, you'd rather sit at home without knowledge of how to help yourself and others and let everyone else die than actually be useful? I guess knowledge isn't important anymore, ignorance is the big hit nowadays, so this is actually understandable, how someone from outside these countries don't understand the view of someone inside the country.

Also fuck me for not faking an illness

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295610]Well other people have pointed it out really. I just think willing recruits would make better soldiers than conscripted civilians who have no interest in partaking in a war. [editline]a[/editline] Plus I think that oneself should choose to join the military, not the government.[/QUOTE] They also are more willing to commit war crimes.