[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295610]Well other people have pointed it out really.
I just think willing recruits would make better soldiers than conscripted civilians who have no interest in partaking in a war.[/QUOTE]
Well conscription gives the opposite effect, it has all the people of a nation working towards a common goal, we all know teachers, lawyers, accountants, clerks, fathers and friends who have been through the process and it builds a sense of community within, so lack of motivation has never been a issue.(from an estonian perspective)
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42295642]But this isn't about going to war, it's about defending the country something that would surely make someone interested if their family and friends lives are in danger. Fucking jesus[/QUOTE]
If they think their country is in danger, then they will make that choice on their own.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295710]If they think their country is in danger, then they will make that choice on their own.[/QUOTE]
But how useful would that choice be if someone who has no knowledge how war is like, how to even hold a gun is like? Not to mention everything else, there are a lot of things to know.
I certainly wouldn't give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to use it.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295610]Well other people have pointed it out really.
I just think willing recruits would make better soldiers than conscripted civilians who have no interest in partaking in a war.
[editline]a[/editline]
Plus I think that oneself should choose to join the military, not the government.[/QUOTE]
That's just the point I've been making - a society that participates in the military like that will be less wanting to start wars, especially in a democratic country where the voters, after serving their conscription, will vote for those that are pro-peace.
Conscription is one of those funny public policies that actually follows Policy Paradox to a T.
I support conscription but I'm a fat slob so I'd be fucking MISERABLE. But I still support it.
[QUOTE=PootisSpencer;42295632]yeah we watched that propaganda movie too
lmao okay fuck me for trying to go with something chill right? at least i can browse the internet or prepare for my studies
from time to time instead of doing pushups all day. i hate guns now anyway so
like at least acknowledge that what you did only was beneficial on a personal level (and thats only because you fit right in with the military mindset). many people suffer all the way through their military service, and its not because they cant handle it or whatever bs their superiors make up[/QUOTE]
I figure you dropped to soap in the shower did ya? Cause you seem quite Butthurt about my post. Military Mindset? Have you even been to the military or are you just talking BS all day? You seem to take things quite personally. If you're stupid enough to go to the military without even wanting it's your fault. Not mine. From all the 250 chaps I met nobody was the same and nobody had anything you described as military mindset. we all hated it, we all struggled and well all had buttsex but we took it like adults and didn't whine around you like you. tl;dr: don't go to logistics.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42295737]But how useful would that choice be if someone who has no knowledge how war is like, how to even hold a gun is like? Not to mention everything else, there are a lot of things to know.
I certainly wouldn't give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to use it.[/QUOTE]
Judging by how WWII turned out, you invariably would. Everyone in Europe was arming civilians, one way or the other. It just depends on severity of invasion.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42294226]It would certainly help to a point.[/QUOTE]
How. Tell me exactly how forced military conscription would help the United States.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42295758]That's just the point I've been making - a society that participates in the military like that will be less wanting to start wars, especially in a democratic country where the voters, after serving their conscription, will vote for those that are pro-peace.[/QUOTE]
Holy fuck Heinlein was right. :V
I'm joking but I just realized how much that sounds like Starship Troopers.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;42295772]How. Tell me exactly how forced military conscription would help the United States.[/QUOTE]
I've stated so in several posts throughout this thread.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;42295774]Holy fuck Heinlein was right. :V
I'm joking but I just realized how much that sounds like Starship Troopers.[/QUOTE]
I've never read his book, unfortunately.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;42295772]How. Tell me exactly how forced military conscription would help the United States.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure you'd tell your congressman no about war much more vocally if it was your ass on the line.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42295790]
I've never read his book, unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
Ancient Roman Empire in Space fighting Communism Spiders with Lasers.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42295802]I'm pretty sure you'd tell your congressman no about war much more vocally if it was your ass on the line.[/QUOTE]
Surprisingly, I got most of these concepts and ideas by reading Machiavelli and his Discourses On Livy.
Machiavelli was always a good read, interesting concepts to toy around with.
[QUOTE=gudman;42295771]Judging by how WWII turned out, you invariably would. Everyone in Europe was arming civilians, one way or the other. It just depends on severity of invasion.[/QUOTE]
I agree but we don't live in that era anymore, thankfully.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42295866]I agree but we don't live in that era anymore, thankfully.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Because few people with guns are going to do even less shit than they were able to do during WWII. Go shoot that drone up above you. Yeah, that one, that just fired a guided missile.
And because no major invasions are going to happen any time soon. But sadly, the concept is still there.
I find the comparison between conscription and school disturbing. Children are forced to do things because there is a common assumption that they're incapable of acting in their own best interest. Are you saying that grown adults aren't capable of acting in their own best interest either?
Conscription fixing problems in America is just an excuse not to look at the problems with education, healthcare and social services.
Why bother fixing them if the army can take up the slack instead?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296267]I find the comparison between conscription and school disturbing. Children are forced to do things because there is a common assumption that they're incapable of acting in their own best interest. Are you saying that grown adults aren't capable of acting in their own best interest either?[/QUOTE]
Knowing the environment you'll be facing, tactics, work ethnic, usage of weaponry isn't something common though? A person working at a bakery with no knowledge of war and protection wouldn't be as safe as someone that does.
Child doesn't know how to read, therefore you teach the child.
Adult doesn't know how to use a gun, therefore you teach the adult.
I agree it might be a little weird to compare though.
Well it worked so damn well in Vietnam. And hey, it got the people to care about the war effort! We pulled out before we poisoned and bombed the entire country. Completely. Political consciousness saves the day again.
And since people were so tied together by conscription, we had a real swell care program for our soldiers that we might have accidentally contaminated with chemical weapons. It was a real community effort. An effort that most definitely continues on to this very day.
And that Gomer Pyle reference earlier in the thread, that's right on the nose let me tell you, a shining example of why conscription works. Who cares if a few fat swine slip through the cracks? Who cares if a few people are forced into a living nightmare and crack? Acceptable losses I say.
Look, I'm talking about a specific situation in my country alone. But please, remember that there is a reason that the US did away with conscription. A lot of shit went down, and a lot of people were hurt, and a lot of wounds have yet to heal. Both here and abroad. Suffice it to say that the US has proven just how perverse and wretched conscription can be, even if it's the exception to the rule.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42296370]Knowing the environment you'll be facing, tactics, work ethnic, usage of weaponry isn't something common though? A person working at a bakery with no knowledge of war and protection wouldn't be as safe as someone that does.
Child doesn't know how to read, therefore you teach the child.
Adult doesn't know how to use a gun, therefore you teach the adult.
I agree it might be a little weird to compare though.[/QUOTE]
This might seem like an unrelated question, but please humor me.
Why do we raise children to be self sufficient?
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42295528]I am astounded by the number of people here supporting conscription.[/QUOTE]
i'm fucking amazed at the number of people who will walk into a disucssion they have their mind totally made up on, and shit on everyone, and anyone who dares have reasoning, and explanations that are at least trying to be logical and reasonable, that are different than the so called "norm" without even a hint of realization of the hypocrisy and stupidity of an act.
I'm not defending or attacking any part of the argument. Simply being here with a made up mind and no ability or desire to learn or test your own ideas.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296267]I find the comparison between conscription and school disturbing. Children are forced to do things because there is a common assumption that they're incapable of acting in their own best interest. Are you saying that grown adults aren't capable of acting in their own best interest either?[/QUOTE]
I think the difference between child and adult at 18 or 19 is non existent for a LOT of people. Being that age does not define you as having the maturity to deal with complicated life situations.
I do not see how a form of conscription inside an organization, or organizations, that allow you to learn new skills and new methods for dealing with the world in a way school frankly doesn't.
People that I know personally, who are "mature", have gone through difficult life events and had many struggles. They were not people who simply gained the title of "young adult" or "adult" due to their age.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296442]Well it worked so damn well in Vietnam. And hey, it got the people to care about the war effort! We pulled out before we poisoned and bombed the entire country. Completely. Political consciousness saves the day again.
And since people were so tied together by conscription, we had a real swell care program for our soldiers that we might have accidentally contaminated with chemical weapons. It was a real community effort. An effort that most definitely continues on to this very day.
And that Gomer Pyle reference earlier in the thread, that's right on the nose let me tell you, a shining example of why conscription works. Who cares if a few fat swine slip through the cracks? Who cares if a few people are forced into a living nightmare and crack? Acceptable losses I say.
[/QUOTE]
yes every form of conscription ever implemented is the same as the next, there's no semantics to be thrown aside here in a meaningless conversation!
oh what am I saying, the semantics and the differences in the Swedish conscription and american conscription is pretty large without even having to look at the differences extremely closely.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296267]I find the comparison between conscription and school disturbing. Children are forced to do things because there is a common assumption that they're incapable of acting in their own best interest. Are you saying that grown adults aren't capable of acting in their own best interest either?[/QUOTE]
Most grown ups aren't capable of acting in the interest of the nation, that's why global warming is such an issue.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
Though I doubt military service is going to make people more considerate about the enviroment :v:
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42296618]I think the difference between child and adult at 18 or 19 is non existent for a LOT of people. Being that age does not define you as having the maturity to deal with complicated life situations.
I do not see how a form of conscription inside an organization, or organizations, that allow you to learn new skills and new methods for dealing with the world in a way school frankly doesn't.
People that I know personally, who are "mature", have gone through difficult life events and had many struggles. They were not people who simply gained the title of "young adult" or "adult" due to their age.[/QUOTE]
At what point [I]is[/I] someone mature then? Exactly at what age do we define people as being capable of autonomy?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42296618]
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
yes every form of conscription ever implemented is the same as the next, there's no semantics to be thrown aside here in a meaningless conversation!
oh what am I saying, the semantics and the differences in the Swedish conscription and american conscription is pretty large without even having to look at the differences extremely closely.[/QUOTE]
"Look, I'm talking about a specific situation in my country alone. But please, remember that there is a reason that the US did away with conscription. A lot of shit went down, and a lot of people were hurt, and a lot of wounds have yet to heal. Both here and abroad. Suffice it to say that the US has proven just how perverse and wretched conscription can be, even if it's the exception to the rule."
I was more reacting to that Gomer Pyle remark. It really baffles me how many people just completely miss the point of Full Metal Jacket.
But this is about Switzerland's conscription, not the US, why most you bring it up, what a completely different country does with this law or what happened because of it?
A country constantly in wars to a country that is not, a country aiming to attack rather than defend?
That's what I want to know.
Comparing them is silly too.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42296761]Most grown ups aren't capable of acting in the interest of the nation, that's why global warming is such an issue.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
Though I doubt military service is going to make people more considerate about the enviroment :v:[/QUOTE]
If the majority of people never reach the point where they can act in their own self interest or in the interest of the nation, why exactly do we trust them with the vote?
If we can't trust people to care for themselves, how can we trust them to rule each other?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296794]At what point [I]is[/I] someone mature then? Exactly at what age do we define people as being capable of autonomy?
"Look, I'm talking about a specific situation in my country alone. But please, remember that there is a reason that the US did away with conscription. A lot of shit went down, and a lot of people were hurt, and a lot of wounds have yet to heal. Both here and abroad. Suffice it to say that the US has proven just how perverse and wretched conscription can be, even if it's the exception to the rule."
I was more reacting to that Gomer Pyle remark. It really baffles me how many people just completely miss the point of Full Metal Jacket.[/QUOTE]
maybe the idea of it being an arbitrary number you just slapped down escaped you, but that's what you said, and are saying is a valid, accurate method of proving the autonomy of a person without fault
I got the point of Full Metal Jacket, I don't think it's the same situation that the swiss are in. Do you think it's an analogue to it?
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296871]If the majority of people never reach the point where they can act in their own self interest or in the interest of the nation, why exactly do we trust them with the vote?
If we can't trust people to care for themselves, how can we trust them to rule each other?[/QUOTE]
yeah because we're in a good situation right now because everyone has been capable of this at this point in time.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42296871]If the majority of people never reach the point where they can act in their own self interest or in the interest of the nation, why exactly do we trust them with the vote?
If we can't trust people to care for themselves, how can we trust them to rule each other?[/QUOTE]
Uhm... Who are we and who are they?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42296869]But this is about Switzerland's conscription, not the US, why most you bring it up, what a completely different country does with this law or what happened because of it?
A country constantly in wars to a country that is not, a country aiming to attack rather than defend?
That's what I want to know.[/QUOTE]
Because it's important to keep in mind just how things can go wrong. I'm in no place to judge the specifics of conscription in Switzerland; that's a conversation for the Swiss to have. But the sentiment that people have expressed for conscription, that it is justified to force people to act in the way you perceive as beneficial and that individual choice is worth less than public good, that I can comment on. And a part of that is looking at how conscription has been used in the past.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42296872]maybe the idea of it being an arbitrary number you just slapped down escaped you, but that's what you said, and are saying is a valid, accurate method of proving the autonomy of a person without fault
I got the point of Full Metal Jacket, I don't think it's the same situation that the swiss are in. Do you think it's an analogue to it?
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
yeah because we're in a good situation right now because everyone has been capable of this at this point in time.[/QUOTE]
Look, let me put this straight. I was referring specifically to people talking about how conscription would be a positive thing for the US. If you don't think that, I wasn't talking to you. No, I do not think that the Swiss are carting people en masse off to a foreign country.
[quote]yeah because we're in a good situation right now because everyone has been capable of this at this point in time.[/quote]
I honestly have no idea what you're saying.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42296905]Uhm... Who are we and who are they?[/QUOTE]
We are the people having this conversation, "they" are the general population.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42297032]Because it's important to keep in mind just how things can go wrong. I'm in no place to judge the specifics of conscription in Switzerland; that's a conversation for the Swiss to have. But the sentiment that people have expressed for conscription, that it is justified to force people to act in the way you perceive as beneficial and that individual choice is worth less than public good, that I can comment on. And a part of that is looking at how conscription has been used in the past.[/QUOTE]
Never did I say individual choices are worthless, I rather say that individual choices are bad if one without knowledge to do something tries to. It's more of a knowing how to and when to. And certainly a country aiming to defend rather than attack will teach those in it what's right and what's wrong. The military can be useful to aid others and to help those inside the country, for example, firefighters, etc. Conscription is more used to those things rather than war. It's might be hard to understand but Switzerland isn't a country that will probably go to war anytime soon but teaching those in it on how to defend it and themselves is always useful.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42295675]They also are more willing to commit war crimes.[/QUOTE]
Ok so if we conscript every able bodied person there would be even more war crimes considering that you have the volunteers and then the conscripts where most of them can't handle murdering a human being or witnessing their buddies dying a horrible death, which will lead to mental issues depending on the person.
It's silly when people are justifying conscription because they are taught courses for free and it gives them a perspective on war when the fact that they may be forced to put on the front lines seems to be completely ignored.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42297032]
Look, let me put this straight. I was referring specifically to people talking about how conscription would be a positive thing for the US. If you don't think that, I wasn't talking to you. No, I do not think that the Swiss are carting people en masse off to a foreign country.
I honestly have no idea what you're saying.
[/QUOTE]
I didn't think this was a thread on US conscription, I must be mistaken when talking about swiss conscription in a swiss conscription thread then?
because the system you are advocating for is in place in the US, but what we see is rampant apathy of the situation they are heading in because of their perceived and probably true, inability to change things.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42297279]Ok so if we conscript every able bodied person there would be even more war crimes considering that you have the volunteers and then the conscripts where most of them can't handle murdering a human being or witnessing their buddies dying a horrible death, which will lead to mental issues depending on the person.
It's silly when people are justifying conscription because they are taught courses for free and it gives them a perspective on war when the fact that they may be forced to put on the front lines seems to be completely ignored.[/QUOTE]
wait, who are the swiss murdering with their conscription?
how is a defensive conscription bad
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