[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42297279]Ok so if we conscript every able bodied person there would be even more war crimes considering that you have the volunteers and then the conscripts where most of them can't handle murdering a human being or witnessing their buddies dying a horrible death, which will lead to mental issues depending on the person.
It's silly when people are justifying conscription because they are taught courses for free and it gives them a perspective on war when the fact that they may be forced to put on the front lines seems to be completely ignored.[/QUOTE]
It's silly to assume that too. Even though conscription is abolished here, we still have information day or "Dia da Defesa" which is used to understand what the army is like and what's it used for. It never shows what a war is like, it shows how helpful to the country and it's people it might be, how aiding other countries is often something they do. I doubt in Switzerland they're taught how gruesome a war can be and scar their minds. Stop thinking that conscripts will just be used as meat shields or something like that.
They are aiming for defense.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42297032]
We are the people having this conversation, "they" are the general population.[/QUOTE]
Well, do you trust people to vote? Even if we didn't, we couldn't do anything about it could we?
Personally I wouldn't want to take a way anyones right to vote, I don't see that as a solution, I'd prefer educating people to vote better.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42297727]Well, do you trust people to vote? Even if we didn't, we couldn't do anything about it could we?
Personally I wouldn't want to take a way anyones right to vote, I don't see that as a solution, I'd prefer educating people to vote better.[/QUOTE]
Look, it's simple. Why do you have a system based on giving power to the majority if you don't trust the majority? I trust in the free agency of people. I believe that people should be given the right to make bad decisions. Of course there are limitations, but they're only there because they're necessary. You're forced to pay taxes, but only because those taxes are required to secure your ability to do what you want with the rest of your money(at least in theory, but that's a different topic).
Fuck.
[QUOTE=rosthouse;42293772]Second, you don't have to go in the military if you have ethical problems with operating a gun. In that case, you get to do something called civil serivces (Zivildienst), where you do stuff like working in hospitals, retirement homes or similar things. There's a third service, civil protection (Zivilschutz) where you do support in case of catastrophes and such (I'm in that service).[/QUOTE]
So there's a purely civilian option? Like, you sign a form and nothing changes except you do volunteer work for a while?
I still think the point of volunteering is that it should be voluntary but this is a far better way of doing it than just "you're in the army now lol"
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42298184]So there's a purely civilian option? Like, you sign a form and nothing changes except you do volunteer work for a while?
I still think the point of volunteering is that it should be voluntary but this is a far better way of doing it than just "you're in the army now lol"[/QUOTE]
You either serve in the military, do the "volunteer work" (which you don't really volunteer for) or pay so your army can buy more big guns.
Didn't ever feel like a choice to me.
[QUOTE=Tomberry;42298230]You either serve in the military, do the "volunteer work" (which you don't really volunteer for) or pay so your army can buy more big guns.
Didn't ever feel like a choice to me.[/QUOTE]
you can seriously pay your way out of conscription
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42298242]you can seriously pay your way out of conscription[/QUOTE]
yeah that just fucking reeks of corruption
if you can pay your way out of conscription you forfeit your right to say it's a philanthropic endeavour designed to foster feelings of national identity or w/e
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42298143]Look, it's simple. Why do you have a system based on giving power to the majority if you don't trust the majority? I trust in the free agency of people. I believe that people should be given the right to make bad decisions. Of course there are limitations, but they're only there because they're necessary. You're forced to pay taxes, but only because those taxes are required to secure your ability to do what you want with the rest of your money(at least in theory, but that's a different topic).[/QUOTE]
Yeah I never implied that I want to limit what people vote and decide, I just implied that most grown ups aren't capable of acting for the good of humanity as a whole.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42296331]Conscription fixing problems in America is just an excuse not to look at the problems with education, healthcare and social services.
Why bother fixing them if the army can take up the slack instead?[/QUOTE]
And on the other hand, why is the army considered almost a separate entity from the citizens as a whole?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42298372]Yeah I never implied that I want to limit what people vote and decide, I just implied that most grown ups aren't capable of acting for the good of humanity as a whole.[/QUOTE]
No no, you misunderstand. I'm not implying that that's what you believe, I'm asking why doesn't it follow logically.
By enforcing conscription, you're limiting people's ability to decide for themselves. In this case because you don't think they should decide for themselves. So why not set up more restrictions along those same lines? Why [I]not[/I] limit what people can vote for? Why not limit what people can do in general?
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=zakedodead;42298382]And on the other hand, why is the army considered almost a separate entity from the citizens as a whole?[/QUOTE]
Because when you're employed in the army you give up certain rights that citizens have. At least in the US, I don't know about Switzerland.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42298485]No no, you misunderstand. I'm not implying that that's what you believe, I'm asking why doesn't it follow logically.
By enforcing conscription, you're limiting people's ability to decide for themselves. In this case because you don't think they should decide for themselves. So why not set up more restrictions along those same lines? Why [I]not[/I] limit what people can vote for? Why not limit what people can do in general?[/QUOTE]
Oh right, I think you missunderstood me actually, but that's my fault entirely. I never stated my opinion on conscription, I certainly didn't encourage it. If anything I even hinted towards disagreeing with conscription:
[quote]Though I doubt military service is going to make people more considerate about the enviroment [/quote]
That reply to your original post was actually kind of out of context, it was just an observation.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42297279]Ok so if we conscript every able bodied person there would be even more war crimes considering that you have the volunteers and then the conscripts where most of them can't handle murdering a human being or witnessing their buddies dying a horrible death, which will lead to mental issues depending on the person.
It's silly when people are justifying conscription because they are taught courses for free and it gives them a perspective on war when the fact that they may be forced to put on the front lines seems to be completely ignored.[/QUOTE]
Because bayoneting babies is one of the training features of every military.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42298485]
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
Because when you're employed in the army you give up certain rights that citizens have. At least in the US, I don't know about Switzerland.[/QUOTE]
You are under military law when you serve the swiss army, with it's own courts, laws n'shit
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42297279]Ok so if we conscript every able bodied person there would be even more war crimes considering that you have the volunteers and then the conscripts where most of them can't handle murdering a human being or witnessing their buddies dying a horrible death, which will lead to mental issues depending on the person.
It's silly when people are justifying conscription because they are taught courses for free and it gives them a perspective on war when the fact that they may be forced to put on the front lines seems to be completely ignored.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I'd say people who aren't okay with Murder would make the best soldiers because they would avoid things like killing civilians.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42298485]No no, you misunderstand. I'm not implying that that's what you believe, I'm asking why doesn't it follow logically.
By enforcing conscription, you're limiting people's ability to decide for themselves. In this case because you don't think they should decide for themselves. So why not set up more restrictions along those same lines? Why [I]not[/I] limit what people can vote for? Why not limit what people can do in general?[/QUOTE]
That'd make a great argument if it wasn't the slippery slope fallacy.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42298651]That'd make a great argument if it wasn't the slippery slope fallacy.[/QUOTE]
If I were criticizing conscription by saying that it leads to less rights in general, then yes. It would be. But I'm not.
I'm saying that the logic behind conscription, that it is necessary because you can't trust people to make the right choice, is inconsistent with the idea that people should be trusted with the functioning of the government.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42298722]If I were criticizing conscription by saying that it leads to less rights in general, then yes. It would be. But I'm not.
I'm saying that the logic behind conscription, that it is necessary because you can't trust people to make the right choice, is inconsistent with the idea that people should be trusted with the functioning of the government.[/QUOTE]
i personally don't think all people can handle that. Do I want to interfere with them because of that? No, but I do have a problem having to share a society with a person who values it less, and due to that, causes problems that do actually effect me, but I have no option to effect back.
I get what you're saying, I don't think conscription is "right" but I don't think it's "wrong" either. I'm just not at all behind the idea that at a certain (meaningless)age, you're mature enough to have a huge impact on the country.
Conscription sucks because with all the different sorts of people you're bringing in, you're going to end up with an inordinate number of sad sacks - people with no desire to serve for whatever reason. These guys usually end up with long disciplinary records and are much more likely to turn to bullying or war crimes as a way of venting their frustrations.
All-volunteer armies suck because as mentioned before, you end up with an inordinate number of impoverished youths joining because they have little other choice. The other problem is that you may possibly end up with a small army of highly trained elites that get curbstomped by the next big conscript army, like what happened with Europe after the French revolution.
[QUOTE=Explosions;42293503]Switzerland is what happens when you plop a medieval government into an isolated mountain nation.
It works flawlessly.[/QUOTE]
And when you hold everyone's gold and trade their prisoners when they have wars.
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;42299115]Conscription sucks because with all the different sorts of people you're bringing in, you're going to end up with an inordinate number of sad sacks - people with no desire to serve for whatever reason. These guys usually end up with long disciplinary records and are much more likely to turn to bullying or war crimes as a way of venting their frustrations.
All-volunteer armies suck because as mentioned before, you end up with an inordinate number of impoverished youths joining because they have little other choice. The other problem is that you may possibly end up with a small army of highly trained elites that get curbstomped by the next big conscript army, like what happened with Europe after the French revolution.[/QUOTE]
Stop taking something that is meant to help and protect and turning it to something that is meant to attack and destroy, holy shit.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
That's 100% negative thinking.
[QUOTE=DanRatherman;42299148]And when you hold everyone's gold and trade their prisoners when they have wars.[/QUOTE]
Funny how the Swiss made their money as Mercenaries during the middle ages. The transition to banking was a great idea.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42299160]Stop taking something that is meant to help and protect and turning it to something that is meant to attack and destroy, holy shit.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
That's 100% negative thinking.[/QUOTE]
I'm not.
I'm just listing some cons of two differing systems.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42294425]I find this stranger that non-Europeans are mostly the ones against this. Military service forcing you to defend your own country, giving you ways to protect yourself, your family and friends, building your character, giving someone the importance of hard work and compensation isn't the same as "Here's a gun, go invade that country."[/QUOTE]
hi im a european and i hate this concept
i dont want to defend my own country (i dont even live in it), and what is considered "character" has nothing to do with what i value
if someone wants to "serve" their country theyre totally cool for doing so, but i have other things id like to do.
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294300]Godwin's Law. Discussion is over.[/QUOTE]
epic for the win
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300044]hi im a european and i hate this concept
i dont want to defend my own country (i dont even live in it), and what is considered "character" has nothing to do with what i value
if someone wants to "serve" their country theyre totally cool for doing so, but i have other things id like to do.
[/QUOTE]
Which country?
english is my nationality, but several countries have been "my country".
the notion of nationalism disgusts me, and not just because i dont fit into its concept
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300178]english is my nationality, but several countries have been "my country".
the notion of nationalism disgusts me, and not just because i dont fit into its concept[/QUOTE]
It has led to horrific atrocities I'll admit.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300178]english is my nationality, but several countries have been "my country".
the notion of nationalism disgusts me, and not just because i dont fit into its concept[/QUOTE]
The notion that you have an obligation to the wellbeing of your fellow countrymen can do alot of good.
Unfortunately that is corrupted into the wellbeing of the state.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42294045]
There is also the fact that a nation wide forced conscription would punch the monetized lines we currently have in the face and force the wealthy to mingle with the poor.
[/QUOTE]
I highly doubt that the wealthy wouldn't be able to easily get out of conscription.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42300307]The notion that you have an obligation to the wellbeing of your fellow countrymen can do alot of good. [/QUOTE]
theres no good in obligation. my "fellow countrymen" dont owe me anything and i dont owe them anything. that's why we have a state in the first place.
[QUOTE=Reds;42300378]I highly doubt that the wealthy wouldn't be able to easily get out of conscription.[/QUOTE]
Can always hope and do our damnest to get them to go.
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