[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42300400]Can always hope and do our damnest to get them to go.[/QUOTE]
In some countries, it might work. In a country like America, not so much.
[QUOTE=Reds;42300438]In some countries, it might work. In a country like America, not so much.[/QUOTE]
I admit it would be most difficult in my country, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted solely because of that.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42300463]I admit it would be most difficult in my country, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted solely because of that.[/QUOTE]
You're right. It shouldn't be attempted because not only has it already been attempted in the past and failed miserably, but because the risk far outweighs the potential reward.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42300607]You're right. It shouldn't be attempted because not only has it already been attempted in the past and failed miserably, but because the risk far outweighs the potential reward.[/QUOTE]
We could, like, learn from the mistakes of previous failures.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300044]hi im a european and i hate this concept
i dont want to defend my own country (i dont even live in it), and what is considered "character" has nothing to do with what i value
if someone wants to "serve" their country theyre totally cool for doing so, but i have other things id like to do.[/QUOTE]
I hate the "character" argument
If anyone but you is building your character, especially when it's an institution doing it, you're not building your character; you're being built into the character someone else wants
Sure, lots of people find themselves in the military, but for just as many others it's a soul-destroying thing
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42300628]We could, like, learn from the mistakes of previous failures.[/QUOTE]
It's not like when putting it together we [I]accidentally[/I] slipped in exemptions for the rich and the influential. Those parts were put in consciously by those who benefited from them. Assuming for the sake of argument that Tomberry is right and you can also pay your way out of it in Switzerland, it seems like a universal problem.
So I would like to know how we wouldn't repeat previous mistakes.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42300664]It's not like when putting it together we [I]accidentally[/I] slipped in exemptions for the rich and the influential. Those parts were put in consciously by those who benefited from them. Assuming for the sake of argument that Tomberry is right and you can also pay your way out of it in Switzerland, it seems like a universal problem.
So I would like to know how we wouldn't repeat previous mistakes.[/QUOTE]
Simply vote for a conscription without that feature or protest it vehemently.
how about vote no conscription and we'd solve those problems seems pretty easy
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300902]how about vote no conscription and we'd solve those problems seems pretty easy[/QUOTE]
B-but, how will we defend ourselves from the Hun without conscription?
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300902]how about vote no conscription and we'd solve those problems seems pretty easy[/QUOTE]
I know what you're getting at but it's not that simple, unfortunately
The problem with this particular initiative is that it was launched by the GSoA (Group for a Switzerland without an Army) - as their name implies, their goal isn't just to get rid of conscription, but of the army altogether. In Switzerland, it's pretty much an established fact that our government cannot afford a professional or voluntary army just for the few purposes it actually serves for. It would actually be more expensive than the current system, not even taking into consideration how there would be significantly less soldiers and a risk of a sort of adverse selection problem. Who doesn't have anything better to do than join the army? The GSoA knew that at this point an initiative for abolishing the army would never gain a majority of votes and tried to take an indirect approach this way. They were likely hoping that people who are in favor of an army would at least take into consideration a solution without conscription, which evidently is not the case. Just goes to show how incompetent they are, they pretty much blew their chance at actually achieving their primary goal for the next couple of years by turning the main issue into a question of adverse selection versus military budget.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
so basically it's either gonna be a militia or no army at all
Seems to me one of the biggest differences between this and the draft, is that if Switzerland actually comes under attack, the people they're forcing into service will actually be trained for it.
Where as with the draft they're just selecting males from 18-25 to go run into machine-gun fire at the president's order.
USA practically has compulsory military service for the poor and over there army is a much bigger commitment.
If the people have no problem with conscription then there's really no reason to remove it, the military may also offer completely free job training for certain careers, especially for truckers, managers, mechanics and law enforcement. Also atleast over here you can perform civil service instead of joining up with the army.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300902]how about vote no conscription and we'd solve those problems seems pretty easy[/QUOTE]
The swiss don't want to??
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42299160]Stop taking something that is meant to help and protect and turning it to something that is meant to attack and destroy, holy shit.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
That's 100% negative thinking.[/QUOTE]
50% negative thinking is more like it. armies are a double edged sword, with them you subjugate and coerce and also try to not get subjugated or coerced.
edit: also not an army nerd here but i think you can't except conscription as a possiblity for defense and just say that pro army is the only way.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;42301483]Seems to me one of the biggest differences between this and the draft, is that if Switzerland actually comes under attack, the people they're forcing into service will actually be trained for it.
Where as with the draft they're just selecting males from 18-25 to go run into machine-gun fire at the president's order.[/QUOTE]
if any country with a significant force decides to invade switzerland the swiss fucking lose. costa rica has literally no army and that's worked out well for them.
doesn't really matter in switzerlands case, since as far as i'm aware they're in good terms with every country they border anyway.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42300902]how about vote no conscription and we'd solve those problems seems pretty easy[/QUOTE]
Yeah if people want to serve in the military, they can just go do it. What right does anyone have to tell others that they need to serve?
It's like mandating membership in and attendance of a church to help "build character" and bring communities together.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42301743]Yeah if people want to serve in the military, they can just go do it. What right does anyone have to tell others that they need to serve?
It's like mandating membership in and attendance of a church to help "build character" and bring communities together.[/QUOTE]
Give us the money to have and maintain a proffessional army that's equal to the size of the army now and we'll happily get rid of conscription. :)
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
Taking donations for civil liberties!
[QUOTE=Hammerz;42303543]Give us the money to have and maintain a proffessional army that's equal to the size of the army now and we'll happily get rid of conscription. :)
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
Taking donations for civil liberties![/QUOTE]
The Swiss have lots of money, not sure about Estonia though.
why does a country that hasnt fought a war since napoleon croaked need an army? :)
[QUOTE=Hellduck;42303579]why does a country that hasnt fought a war since napoleon croaked need an army? :)[/QUOTE]
I was not talking about the swiss here, they are quite happy with conscription and peoplr have voted not to change it. I'm talking countries with little capital so they just can't afford the upkeep of a decent sized army.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42303566]The Swiss have lots of money, not sure about Estonia though.[/QUOTE]
The swiss have voted it in, we haven't, we just don't have the moneys to keep up a professional army of enough size that we can defend our own territory. Having an army means jack if it can't keep it's country safe.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42300645]I hate the "character" argument
If anyone but you is building your character, especially when it's an institution doing it, you're not building your character; you're being built into the character someone else wants
Sure, lots of people find themselves in the military, but for just as many others it's a soul-destroying thing[/QUOTE]
But this isn't like being forced into America's military, where you are basically guaranteed to be shipped off somewhere. Switzerland is intensely non-confrontational. Their military, as several Swiss have already stated, act in public service during disaster or assisting with events or whatever.
So they go through training, and serve a brief period during the year, in the military, or civil service or whatever.
In terms of how soul-destroying it is, I personally can't answer that and neither can you, because neither of us are Swiss and neither of us have gone through their service.
This really is not an argument for anyone but the Swiss to make, because it's their service that their majority voted on. If conscription was considered a truly horrible thing in Switzerland, the majority would have voted to get rid of it.
[QUOTE=Hammerz;42303615]I was not talking about the swiss here, they are quite happy with conscription and peoplr have voted not to change it. I'm talking countries with little capital so they just can't afford the upkeep of a decent sized army.[/QUOTE]
why do they need one either? i could understand conscription in a time of war, but by default its totally unnecessary
[QUOTE=Hellduck;42303767]why do they need one either? i could understand conscription in a time of war, but by default its totally unnecessary[/QUOTE]
They aren't just a standing army, read the article and read what the Swiss posters have said, it's public service, they work in the community and act in times of need during natural disasters or whatever. They don't just stand along the borders pointing guns at neighbors waiting for war.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;42303767]why do they need one either? i could understand conscription in a time of war, but by default its totally unnecessary[/QUOTE]
It takes months to train people for military service. In the event of a war, it would take a nation several months later to gain a sizable force to defend itself else use unskilled, untrained men that will get themselves killed quick.
Not saying this is why the Swiss do it, but countries in general. To have a prepared population.
Why it was scrapped in the UK.
[quote=BBC]After basic training, the raw recruits would be turned into soldiers , sailors and airmen, and they would be posted to join regiments at home or abroad. Nearly 400 national servicemen would die for their country in war zones like Korea and Malaya. Others took part in atomic tests on Christmas Island, or were even used as human guinea pigs for germ warfare tests.
There are tragic stories too, of young men who simply couldn't cope with military life, or the pain of separation from their families and for whom suicide was the only way out.
But what of the longer term impact on these men? Among the more independent young soldiers, they learnt a contempt for the army, which damaged morale and affected the image of the army to the outside world. As news of the absurdities of army life spread, this may have had its impact on the recruiting of regulars, which fell sharply during the 1950s.
In addition, as early as 1949, it had become apparent to political and military leaders that the principal of universal liability to national service was a double-edged sword: not only was it supplying more men than the services could absorb, but it was draining resources to train them, and taking fit and able young men out of the economy.
It may have started with honourable intentions of keeping Britain's post-war army viable, but nobody expected that it would last until the 1960s and have a profound effect on an entire generation.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Bentham;42303782]They aren't just a standing army, read the article and read what the Swiss posters have said, it's public service, they work in the community and act in times of need during natural disasters or whatever. They don't just stand along the borders pointing guns at neighbors waiting for war.[/QUOTE]
I did, and I dont see why people should be forced to do that either.
[editline]25th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42303788]It takes months to train people for military service. In the event of a war, it would take a nation several months later to gain a sizable force to defend itself else use unskilled, untrained men that will get themselves killed quick.
Not saying this is why the Swiss do it, but countries in general. To have a prepared population.[/QUOTE]
how many countries that are able to effectively conscript fairly and indiscriminately from its population is actually going to get invaded anyway?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42301743]Yeah if people want to serve in the military, they can just go do it. What right does anyone have to tell others that they need to serve?
It's like mandating membership in and attendance of a church to help "build character" and bring communities together.[/QUOTE]
Well if you don´t wanna serve in the army, then do the civil services. You know, being part of a community and helping other people out.
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42303861]Well if you don´t wanna serve in the army, then do the civil services. You know, being part of a community and helping other people out.[/QUOTE]
What if I want to do neither and want to choose what I want to do with my life, and not have a government choose for me?
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42303861]Well if you don´t wanna serve in the army, then do the civil services. You know, being part of a community and helping other people out.[/QUOTE]
what do you do to be part of a community
[QUOTE=NoDachi;42303799]Why it was scrapped in the UK.[/QUOTE]
How much of this will apply to Switzerland? GB and Switzerland are two different countries, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Switzerland getting involved in all the garbage GB does.
[QUOTE=supersoldier58;42303917]What if I want to do neither and want to choose what I want to do with my life, and not have a government choose for me?[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing you're opposed to all forms of taxation as well?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42303996]I'm guessing you're opposed to all forms of taxation as well?[/QUOTE]
Don't forget compulsory education through a certain year.
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