Confederate Flag Displayed, Sparks Dispute In Virginia - Polidicks

Lincoln's and the Union's overreaching goal of the war was to prevent the states from seceding. Halfway through it, they turned it into a war to end slavery to gain a moral high ground in the fight.

[QUOTE=Nestophales;42341322]The majority of the Union was racist too, it was a common belief during that time period that blacks were inferior socially and mentally compared to whites. Race was pretty irrelevant in the Civil War, the Union's goal was to end slavery as a whole, not just free blacks. Even after they were freed by Lincoln they didn't get civil rights like whites, you basically just got a guarantee that someone can't slap irons on you and force you into servitude. You were still considered subhuman.[/QUOTE] and despite that not being an ideal state of affairs, it's still far better than what the confederacy fought for.

[QUOTE=Bazsil;42341410]So we are both in agreement that it was about states rights then yes?[/QUOTE] Wow, I am not sure how to respond to that. That is astounding.

[QUOTE=Bazsil;42341410]So we are both in agreement that it was about states rights then yes?[/QUOTE] noone has the right to own another human if the states thought they did then they were rightfully stripped of that 'right'

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341417]Lincoln's and the Union's overreaching goal of the war was to prevent the states from seceding. Halfway through it, they turned it into a war to end slavery to gain a moral high ground in the fight.[/QUOTE] It wasn't just "claiming the moral high ground". If that were the case, why did Lincoln desperately fight for the 13th Amendment at the tail end of the war? Why would he do that unless he really wanted to abolish slavery?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42341432]noone has the right to own another human if the states thought they did then they were rightfully stripped of that 'right'[/QUOTE] Which is why the southern states were stripped of that 'right', doesn't change that the war still concerned what rights were allowed the states

[QUOTE=Bazsil;42341447]Which is why the southern states were stripped of that 'right', doesn't change that the war still concerned what rights were allowed the states[/QUOTE] well i guess so. but it's deceitful to just say 'the war was about state rights!' without saying what those rights were

[QUOTE=Explosions;42341441]It wasn't just "claiming the moral high ground". If that were the case, why did Lincoln desperately fight for the 13th Amendment at the tail end of the war? Why would he do that unless he really wanted to abolish slavery?[/QUOTE] I don't see how that contradicts the main goal being to keep the country united.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341467]I don't see how that contradicts the main goal being to keep the country united.[/QUOTE] It doesn't. I agree. You are dodging my point, and it's obvious. You said that "halfway through it, they turned it into a war to end slavery to gain a moral high ground in the fight" which is objectively false.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341467]I don't see how that contradicts the main goal being to keep the country united.[/QUOTE] the unions main goal was to keep the country united, the confederacies main goal was to continue slavery. which is more justifiable?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42341471]It doesn't. I agree. You are dodging my point, and it's obvious. You said that "halfway through it, they turned it into a war to end slavery to gain a moral high ground in the fight" which is objectively false.[/QUOTE] I don't recall them yelling to end slavery at the start of the war.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42341486]I don't recall them yelling to end slavery at the start of the war.[/QUOTE] I know you're not this stupid Scorpious. You said that Lincoln threw it in there to claim the moral high ground. That is what I am disputing. I am not disputing that the preservation of the Union was the main motivation, or that Lincoln made slavery the issue only later in the war. I AM NOT ARGUING THAT. I am arguing that Lincoln making ending slavery the goal of the war was not simply some propagandistic "claiming the moral high ground".

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42339965]One day, in the future, I truly hope that people will realize that that was never the Confederate flag but just a battleflag :v:[/QUOTE] It was also the main part of the confederate flag itself: [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg/800px-Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg.png[/img] get ur amurican history rite boi

[QUOTE=Thlis;42341246]It's funny how if one person in the Union was racist then they are all automatically at the same level as the confederates. And even then, trying to justify the confederacy with "well this guy was not as racist but still racist" is laughable.[/QUOTE] Most Northereners were racist and really only disliked slavery because they saw it morally wrong. Many of them still thought that blacks, Irish, Hispanic, and Indians were sub-human. [editline]29th September 2013[/editline] To believe the North or the West was fully equal and everyone liked each other is extremely naive.

read the confederate constitution and you tell me why the civil war happened ironically the states lost rights in the CSA consitution

[QUOTE=thisispain;42342873]read the confederate constitution and you tell me why the civil war happened ironically the states lost rights in the CSA consitution[/QUOTE] You can blame that on their horrible congress. I mean, seriously, who wants Davis as president?

I'm from Virginia, granted, the Northern Part, but still Virginia. We are racist as fuck. In my small town, we were the last high school in the US to get desegregated, according to local legend. Which, I believe, has a tie to the old White Palace a mile up which was the KKK meeting place for years.

[QUOTE=Polonium9;42342922] We are racist as fuck. In my small town, we were the last high school in the US to get desegregated, according to local legend. Which, I believe, has a tie to the old White Palace a mile up which was the KKK meeting place for years.[/QUOTE] Schools are still having segregated proms in the deep south. I live in Canada. I've seen people fly the confederate flag. Its strange.

[QUOTE=Polonium9;42342922]I'm from Virginia, granted, the Northern Part, but still Virginia. We are racist as fuck. In my small town, we were the last high school in the US to get desegregated, according to local legend. Which, I believe, has a tie to the old White Palace a mile up which was the KKK meeting place for years.[/QUOTE] I live in McLean, Virginia. Several people fly Confederate flags, primarily because they have Confederate ancestry. None of them are particularly racist, and no one gets offended by it. [editline]29th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rangergxi;42342934]Schools are still having segregated proms in the deep south.[/QUOTE] The Deep South was and still is laughable.

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;42342943]I live in McLean, Virginia. Several people fly Confederate flags, primarily because they have Confederate ancestry. None of them are particularly racist, and [b]no one gets offended by it[/b].[/QUOTE] I wonder how many black people live nearby.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42342957]I wonder how many black people live nearby.[/QUOTE] A couple. Even they fly the flag, to be honest. Or, at least Dennis does. [editline]29th September 2013[/editline] I can remember three black families off the top of my head that live in my neighbourhood and they have never been offended by it because if they were they probably wouldn't invite to the annual block party. The only person who was offended was my former neighbour John, but he was offended by anything despite being one of the most privileged people I've ever met.

i can almost guarantee the majority of people who fly the confederate flag today just do it because of their southern history i obviously dont condone slavery or whatever and am kickin rad pumped that the north won but unless you live here and interact with the people, which im seeing a lot of non americans saying how evil you are if you fly it, you dont really know how it is as stupid as that sounds *no i dont fly the confederate flag

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42341475]the unions main goal was to keep the country united, the confederacies main goal was to continue slavery. which is more justifiable?[/QUOTE] Great idea lets cripple our economy, the war wasn't about slavery it was about state rights.

Slavery is bad. The flag isn't. It's just a symbol of a nation that doesn't exist anymore

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42341475]the unions main goal was to keep the country united, the confederacies main goal was to continue slavery. which is more justifiable?[/QUOTE] So even if you choose to be incorrect and believe that slavery was the root of the secession I hope you realize that Lincoln did not intend on ending slavery in the south at all. He merely wanted to prevent the new states applying for the Union from being slave states. So please tell me why the South would go and gimp themselves over "muh slavery" when they weren't even threatened in the first place? Oh no there's no way it could be over state rights or the fed gaining too much power. Its not like Lincoln repeatedly ignored the constitution throughout his term. No one thinks secession was a smart idea but believing slavery was the cause is of a similar level of poor thought. To make your argument accurate you'd have drop that racism card you've been playing too, since A: The Union was racist as south up even until the end of reconstruction and B: They didn't care about the slaves being black, the cared about the slaves being cheap labor (you can look at the Norths railway construction exploiting the Irish the same way, it was all about what cheap manpower could be justified), cotton is what they cared about, it being 50% of the Souths income at the time. Finally, you can't really pull the morality card over slavery in the context of that time in the United States. Abolitionism came from Europe and very few people supported the idea early in the United States but politically countries began to see it as a way to compete for prestige while they juggled it with production, ie France and England abolished slavery in their mainland but not their colonies. It was less of a movement of how disgusting slavery was and more of a resurgence and re imagining of ideologies such as Thomas Jefferson's "All men are created equal". Only one state in the North had completely abolished slavery, Massachusetts. Others just created ways of hampering slavery such as Vermont allowing slave ownership but the slaves could not be in Vermont. Sure it's easy to look at the people who fly the battle flag and generalize them and the southerners as slavery supporting racists. But you can't use that angle to look back into the civil war. One of the principles of understanding history is to put everything into context, back then the kind of racism you see in the south today didn't exist. That radical kind of racism came out of reconstruction, not the confederacy. Basically southern butthurt is the result of the war not the cause dude.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42342934] I live in Canada. I've seen people fly the confederate flag. Its strange.[/QUOTE] That's because in 2013 it's an emblem representing racism and stupidity Treat people who fly it the way you would treat a person flying a flag with a giant cock and balls on it

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;42340528]We call WW1 a World War despite being set at 99% on European ground and actually only involving 2 continents, because it's simpler than calling it the European-American-First-Modern-War Same deal with the civil war[/QUOTE] Uh Europe Asia Africa Pacific Americans who funneled cash and people later into it. I don't know, but that's way more than two continents. You just need to get past common descriptions of it, which mostly focus on the Western front. The eastern fronts was a lot more mobile for instance and troops involved in it ended up as far as Siberia once Russia descended into civil war. Hell Vladivostok was under the control of Czech troops, white russians and was later relieved by Americans, British and Japanese.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;42343276]Slavery is bad. The flag isn't. It's just a symbol of a nation that doesn't exist anymore[/QUOTE] The symbol of a nation that fought tooth and nail to continue the practice of enslaving black people

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42344556]The symbol of a nation that fought tooth and nail to continue the practice of enslaving black people[/QUOTE] So? Do we ban the symbols of every nation or empire or whatever that did bad things to people? That's just stupid

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;42344598]So? Do we ban the symbols of every nation or empire or whatever that did bad things to people? That's just stupid[/QUOTE] i don't think anybody was talking about a ban, just that the people who would fly that flag are ignorant if nothing else