Israel to demolish 56 year old Bedouin village and replace it with town for Jews
56 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Monkah;42838961]It was unassigned, also known as illegally built. It's not like Israel is making legal exceptions to only discriminate against non-Jews, rather than uphold a law meant for everyone. What exactly do you think will happen if we found a huge Native American settlement back when the English first came to the Americas? We'd take it down and replace it with our own settlements? God, we must all be the new Hitlers!
[I]
It's far from the morally correct thing to do[/I], but do understand history repeats itself and this is merely a repetition, not a sign of Hitler's second coming. No millions of people are being slaughtered, just a few illegal constructions on unpurchased property being taken down.
Nah, not entirely true. From what I know, (having lived there) the lesser-religious make it by fine although the highly religious do get discriminated against, sadly enough.[/QUOTE]
the village was established for over half a century already, man
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;42839075]the village was established for over half a century already, man[/QUOTE]
plus, these people are bedouins, they've been nomads as far back as before the time of Muhammad, and they don't give a shit about permits or what not, it's just their way of life.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42826454]Its sad that I have to write this disclaimer, but a few Israel apologists may attempt to argue that its their own fault for not having permits. They'll be neglecting to mention that Israel discriminates against Arabs when it comes to obtaining permits though.[/QUOTE]
To put it very plainly, the purpose is to peacefully persuade Palestinians to abandon living in East Jerusalem or Area C (and afterwards in area B), and to build as they please in area A instead, which could, one day, if all the stars are aligned in the correct position, become a Palestinian autonomous region, perhaps even a demilitarized state if they behave themselves.
[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;42839075]the village was established for over half a century already, man[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=barttool;42839126]plus, these people are bedouins, they've been nomads as far back as before the time of Muhammad, and they don't give a shit about permits or what not, it's just their way of life.[/QUOTE]
Their way of life, unfortunately, clashes with the law. Most countries have zoning and building regulations that are generally respected as a necessity for maintaining orderly communities.
It makes no difference when the village was established or how old it is (56 years is not long enough to count as historically important anyway), they were left in peace for half a century probably because of the very fact that they are a nomad tribe and mostly keep to themselves.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;42838794]What are they going to do after they take all of Palestine?
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7GrPQKqb7_Y/TWRlPoMxpMI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/9-e23KJzS9k/s320/greater_israel.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
They can dream about it.
[QUOTE=Melnek;42839410]To put it very plainly, the purpose is to peacefully persuade Palestinians to abandon living in East Jerusalem or Area C (and afterwards in area B), and to build as they please in area A instead, which could, one day, if all the stars are aligned in the correct position, become a Palestinian autonomous region, perhaps even a demilitarized state if they behave themselves.[/QUOTE]
Why is there any need of persuading Palestinians to leave land they have a right to live on? Attempting to expel an ethnic group from Jerusalem, no matter what the means is something to be frowned upon and worthy of serious condemnation. Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem was never even recognized either, even if it were it still wouldn't make their actions acceptable.
Its noble of you to think that the Palestinian people can have their (limited) self-determination, if they "behave" themselves. Guess they've just been too uppity from all the home demolitions, vilification, illegal settlements, and the un-apologetic manner from Israel's displacement of Palestinians to be deserving of any real self-determination.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;42838794]What are they going to do after they take all of Palestine?
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7GrPQKqb7_Y/TWRlPoMxpMI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/9-e23KJzS9k/s320/greater_israel.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
They can have a port on the Red Sea but more than that is pushing it.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42841046]They can have a port on the Red Sea but more than that is pushing it.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilat[/url]
They already have a port...
[QUOTE=Sleepy4729786;42841059][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilat[/url]
They already have a port...[/QUOTE]
I know, I was just saying that if they want more Red Sea coastline it's pushing it a little.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42840986]Why is there any need of persuading Palestinians to leave land they have a right to live on? Attempting to expel an ethnic group from Jerusalem, no matter what the means is something to be frowned upon and worthy of serious condemnation. Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem was never even recognized either, even if it were it still wouldn't make their actions acceptable.
Its noble of you to think that the Palestinian people can have their (limited) self-determination, if they "behave" themselves. Guess they've just been too uppity from all the home demolitions, vilification, illegal settlements, and the un-apologetic manner from Israel's displacement of Palestinians to be deserving of any real self-determination.[/QUOTE]
Because whether you like it or not, Israelis have not only settled the 'rightful land' of the Palestinians they have transformed it from the swamp/desert unfarmable shithole it was into a heavily modernized and industrial regional superpower with European-standard cities, and there are no plans to just give land that previous and current generations have fought and died for in wars.
So instead of being locked in a never-ending conflict a plan was made to give the Palestinians a hope for co-existence and give them a sizable piece of land that, over time, if everything goes smoothly, should serve as their own nation and Israel would no longer have to actively monitor them to prevent the same shit that happened in the Gaza Strip where a fucking world-recognized terrorist organization was somehow elected as a ruling government.
[quote]Guess they've just been too uppity from all the home demolitions, vilification, illegal settlements,[/quote]
No, they have been "uppity" long before Israel started doing these things. These actions are that of apathy and exhaustion from tip-toeing around Palestinian interests. Despite what the world may say we are not savages, we have been the ones actively pushing for peace (because the entire fucking world is literally breathing down our necks about it) but since a common theme throughout the peace process has been the Palestinians asking for too much in their peace demands and offering little in return, many in Israeli politics have simply lost hope of ever reaching peace because it is simply impossible to negotiate with them going "give us half of israel lol" every single time.
[QUOTE=Melnek;42841657]Because whether you like it or not, Israelis have not only settled the 'rightful land' of the Palestinians they have transformed it from the swamp/desert unfarmable shithole it was into a heavily modernized and industrial regional superpower[/QUOTE]
You are literally speaking like an Orientalist, by insinuating that the people before were not "advanced" enough to have a claim to the land. This is the sort of shit colonizers have been using as justification to deprive people from their land for ages.
[quote]
No, they have been "uppity" long before Israel started doing these things. These actions are that of apathy and exhaustion from tip-toeing around Palestinian interests. Despite what the world may say we are not savages, we have been the ones actively pushing for peace (because the entire fucking world is literally breathing down our necks about it) but since a common theme throughout the peace process has been the Palestinians asking for too much in their peace demands and offering little in return, many in Israeli politics have simply lost hope of ever reaching peace because it is simply impossible to negotiate with them going "give us half of israel lol" every single time.[/quote]
The Palestinians are not asking for "too much" in their peace demands, they're demanding what International law has already laid out towards what needs to happen.
[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;42838794]What are they going to do after they take all of Palestine?
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7GrPQKqb7_Y/TWRlPoMxpMI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/9-e23KJzS9k/s320/greater_israel.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Good Idea.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42842153]You are literally speaking like an Orientalist, by insinuating that the people before were not "advanced" enough to have a claim to the land. This is the sort of shit colonizers have been using as justification to deprive people from their land for ages.
The Palestinians are not asking for "too much" in their peace demands, they're demanding what International law has already laid out towards what needs to happen.[/QUOTE]
You speak of ideals and hypotheticals, I'm asking you how are you planning on realistically giving back land that was occupied and settled 60 years ago.
Do you not understand that it makes absolutely no difference whose land it is? The borders are already drawn, the roads are already paved, and the foundations already laid out. It may be immoral, it may be illegal, it may have all been a mistake from the get-go. It doesn't matter because nobody is going to give up the land or put it at a greater risk by reducing and shortening the already incredibly short borders. It's just not going to happen.
It's about as realistic as the United States giving back land to the native tribes today. 300 years ago? Maybe. Now? Not a chance.
Those that think this land belongs to someone are not too familiar with history, it was never strictly speaking a Jewish land. It was never a strictly speaking Palestinian land. If you actually think Palestinians were here and then a bunch of European Jews showed up and stole everything you'd be wrong. If you want to give land back based on its historic owners we'd have to discuss how far you're willing to go back because we're talking about a dozen of different nationalities ruling this tiny patch of land, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Ancient_times]just take your pick.[/url]
[QUOTE=RzDat;42842215]Good Idea.[/QUOTE]
Come at me bro, I'm your neighbor from hell.
[QUOTE=Melnek;42841657]many in Israeli politics have simply lost hope of ever reaching peace because it is simply impossible to negotiate with them going "give us half of israel lol" every single time.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget 'give us your capital and most populated and modern cities' too. That one's common to see as well.
[QUOTE=Melnek;42842584]If you want to give land back based on its historic owners we'd have to discuss how far you're willing to go back because we're talking about a dozen of different nationalities ruling this tiny patch of land, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Ancient_times]just take your pick.[/url][/QUOTE]
You're regurgitating the same old Orientalist rhetoric as before, this time only the difference is that you're applying it to the present situation in Israel and Palestine. Developing land does not excuse from its theft and unlike the previous peoples that were not able to do anything about it the Palestinians have the benefit of living in an age where this kind of behavior is unacceptable. The UN, the international community have repeatedly ruled out that all of Israel's developments are illegal, the Zionists were simply too late to the colonial game, where native peoples can be displaced without any repercussion.
Yes, it'll quite inconvenient for Israel to dismantle all of its illegal settlements. But international law is international law and Israel shouldn't be rewarded for its illegal and amoral activities, nobody should in this day and age.
[quote] If you want to give land back based on its historic owners we'd have to discuss how far you're willing to go back because we're talking about a dozen of different nationalities ruling this tiny patch of land, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Ancient_times]just take your pick.[/url][/QUOTE]
The historic owners of the land were Palestine's inhabitants before the Western immigration. They're the culmination of all of the peoples that have lived in the region since time immemorial.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42844488]You're regurgitating the same old Orientalist rhetoric as before, this time only the difference is that you're applying it to the present situation in Israel and Palestine. Developing land does not excuse from its theft and unlike the previous peoples that were not able to do anything about it the Palestinians have the benefit of living in an age where this kind of behavior is unacceptable. The UN, the international community have repeatedly ruled out that all of Israel's developments are illegal, the Zionists were simply too late to the colonial game, where native peoples can be displaced without any repercussion.
Yes, it'll quite inconvenient for Israel to dismantle all of its illegal settlements. But international law is international law and Israel shouldn't be rewarded for its illegal and amoral activities, nobody should in this day and age. [/QUOTE]
Rewarded? Nobody is saying Israel should be rewarded, I'm saying that our government will not just give their developed land for little to no guarantee the Palestinians, or more accurately, the Hamas will hold up their end of the deal. They aren't exactly the most trustworthy bunch what with all the public executions and parading corpses with motorcycles around town.
Quite inconvenient is such a careless understatement it's clear you don't really care if peace is ever achieved or not but would rather just see Israel persecuted under international law.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42844488]The historic owners of the land were Palestine's inhabitants before the Western immigration. They're the culmination of all of the peoples that have lived in the region since time immemorial.[/QUOTE]
What? Before the Western immigration there were a people called the Canaanites and they bear no relation to 'Palestine' whatsoever. The name 'Palestine' is just that, a name. It has a long history of various meanings and geographical definitions and the entire thing is so convoluted and unclear because of so many missuses and differing leaderships over the centuries it's virtually impossible to follow.
The term you're referring to (Palestinians) is relatively recent and is only a fraction of the entire history of the peoples who occupied this land.
It's best to drop the whole "whose land is it anyway" game and focus on different solutions to the problem because even if the land belongs to Palestinians, the UN can do very little while the US continues its active support. It's a waste of time and a better use of it would be striving to achieve peace by alternate means.
[QUOTE=barttool;42839126]plus, these people are bedouins, they've been nomads as far back as before the time of Muhammad, and they don't give a shit about permits or what not, it's just their way of life.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Israel gives a shit about their way of life in vice versa.
[QUOTE=Melnek;42839410]Their way of life, unfortunately, clashes with the law.[/QUOTE]
Considering the age of said way of life, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for the law to change to allow some leeway on their part.
It's times like this that get me down. Religion won't be extinct for several hundred more years of people dying off, and these problems will persist as long as useless mythology is something that people actually [I]believe[/I]
It's too bad about all the people that are going to have to die in the coming years over land that truly doesn't belong to any of them. The land was there way before any of these people, and it will be there after the blood soaked sands wash away in the wind.
[QUOTE=frozensoda;42845638]It's times like this that get me down. Religion won't be extinct for several hundred more years of people dying off, and these problems will persist as long as useless mythology is something that people actually [I]believe[/I]
It's too bad about all the people that are going to have to die in the coming years over land that truly doesn't belong to any of them. The land was there way before any of these people, and it will be there after the blood soaked sands wash away in the wind.[/QUOTE]
You honestly think religion is to blame for this? That if we got rid of religion stuff like this wouldn't happen? How incredibly naive.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;42845950]You honestly think religion is to blame for this? That if we got rid of religion stuff like this wouldn't happen? How incredibly naive.[/QUOTE]
k
[QUOTE=frozensoda;42846272]k[/QUOTE]
You remind me of this specific guy who replies with a "k" whenever he doesn't like something... :suicide:
If there would be no religion, then people would find something else to blame these war on, it's how humanity is, regardless if you like it, or not.
But since it is the norm today they'll blame everything that happens in the Middle-East on religion, seeing as it's an important factor in your average middle-easterner's life, and it's the easiest target to blame.
[QUOTE=Melnek;42844892]Rewarded? Nobody is saying Israel should be rewarded, I'm saying that our government will not just give their developed land for little to no guarantee the Palestinians, or more accurately, the Hamas will hold up their end of the deal. They aren't exactly the most trustworthy bunch what with all the public executions and parading corpses with motorcycles around town.
[/quote]
Nobody is saying outright Israel should be rewarded, but that's what will precisely happen if Israel gets to hold onto land they have no right to just because they've built roads or buildings on it. They've been doing that after all in the hopes that people would make the same argument you've made earlier. The land belongs to the Palestinian people and Israel doesn't have any right to withhold it as a bargaining chip. Remember, Israel has expressed repeatedly over the years that they wouldn't return all of the land back anyways as well.
[quote]
Quite inconvenient is such a careless understatement it's clear you don't really care if peace is ever achieved or not but would rather just see Israel persecuted under international law.
[/quote]
Upholding international law is not persecution against Israel, its upholding international law. I am not interested in "persecuting" Israel like you're implying, I have a concern for what the Palestinian people are going through seeing that my government, my country, and my tax money contribute to keeping these people under Israel's thumb.
[quote]
What? Before the Western immigration there were a people called the Canaanites and they bear no relation to 'Palestine' whatsoever. The name 'Palestine' is just that, a name. It has a long history of various meanings and geographical definitions and the entire thing is so convoluted and unclear because of so many missuses and differing leaderships over the centuries it's virtually impossible to follow.
The term you're referring to (Palestinians) is relatively recent and is only a fraction of the entire history of the peoples who occupied this land. [/QUOTE]
Yes, Palestinians are only a fraction of the entire history of the peoples who occupied the land but they happen to also be the culmination of all of those who lived there before. Their treatment by the West and the Israelis has been deplorable and they deserve much better than this, they've been pushed aside for foreign interests for far too long.
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