[QUOTE=PyroCF;45164450]Why don't Americans switch to more fuel efficient cars then if they have to drive long distances? I understand not many places actually sell diesel but a lot of petrol cars remapped to your fuel should be able to have a decent shot at good mileage.
Just genuinely curious.[/QUOTE]Literally every gas station in the United States has a diesel pump, most have at least two if they're adjacent to a highway. Unfortunately diesel has never really been popular in the United States because... well, I don't fucking know, I think diesel engines are awesome. Most of the cars available to the average American are terrible pieces of shit, which is a bit sad because you'd have to really try to beat American quality in previous decades. Then there's the issue of actually having the money to buy a car, most people who are commuting long distances need the money that job provides. Unfortunately the commute itself is usually barely cheap enough to be worth it, so it's a classic catch-22 situation.
[QUOTE=PyroCF;45164450]Why don't Americans switch to more fuel efficient cars then if they have to drive long distances? I understand not many places actually sell diesel but a lot of petrol cars remapped to your fuel should be able to have a decent shot at good mileage.
Just genuinely curious.[/QUOTE]
Average age of vehicles on the road is 11 years old, and not many people can afford to get a newer one.
In general a lot of us just hold on to cars until they stop being repairable.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45164582]. Unfortunately diesel has never really been popular in the United States because... well, I don't fucking know,[/QUOTE]
Diesels have retarded regulations, some are near impossible to meet.
Ah yeah, I totally forgot about the massive used car market in the US. Helps that some states don't have something like an MOT too.
[QUOTE=Cmx;45164615]Average age of vehicles on the road is 11 years old, and not many people can afford to get a newer one.
In general a lot of us just hold on to cars until they stop being repairable.[/QUOTE]This is also true, I probably should have mentioned that.[QUOTE=Cmx;45164615]Diesels have retarded regulations, some are near impossible to meet.[/QUOTE]That wasn't always the case though, and there was plenty of opportunities and incentives for the use of diesel engines in consumer cars since the 1950's. I mean it's always kind of baffled me how diesel engines didn't at least catch a portion of the market especially in the 1970's. Diesel has always been cheaper, just as available, and the few downsides have been a non-issue pretty much since cars stopped being a novelty for the rich.
[QUOTE=Cmx;45164615]Average age of vehicles on the road is 11 years old, and not many people can afford to get a newer one.
In general a lot of us just hold on to cars until they stop being repairable.
[/QUOTE]
My truck is old enough to get QQ historical tags :v:
If I remember correctly there was an attempt to market diesels in the 70s but they used gas engine components and it lead to them being extreamly unreliable and ruined any consumer confidence in diesel cars. There is also a lot of people who think diesels only belong in trucks.
[QUOTE=Mega1mpact;45164408]Stop fucking whining. Our gas is almost 2.5 times as expensive and we're still buying it.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Pz8t8fM.gif[/img]
[url]http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gas+price+netherlands+vs+usa[/url][/QUOTE]
tbh they have the right to complain, just because somewhere out there there are people that have it worse, doesn't mean you can't complain.
Like those fucking people where if you say "god I'm hungry" they go all like No in africa the starving children are hungry!!!
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45152816]Learn how to drive efficiently, even if a car has pretty eh mileage, as long as you don't have a long commute you can keep going usually.[/QUOTE]
And get a manual. I can squeeze almost 20MPG out of a 30 year old half-ton pickup because I don't go everywhere at full throttle and I have three pedals instead of two. Those same techniques in a 25MPG average V6 sedan will see you hovering around 30-35.
[editline]20th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cmx;45165307]If I remember correctly there was an attempt to market diesels in the 70s but they used gas engine components and it lead to them being extremely unreliable and ruined any consumer confidence in diesel cars.[/quote]
You're referring to Chevy's attempt at a diesel based off the 350cid Gas V8. They got the bugs worked out of it and, the last couple years before they dropped them they weren't any less reliable than the engine they were based off of.
The other issues that stymy diesel cars in the US are the soot(They don't do it anymore, people still automatically assume they're smelly sooty shitheaps because most of the time they're only experiencing the big commercial engines), price(The fuel economy boost of a Jetta TDI doesn't pay for itself until the car's nearly thirty years old compared to the 2.5L gas Jetta due to diesel being so much more expensive than gasoline stateside) and power(People here like a good, strong car, and I'm sorry but a ~3L gas V6 is going to pull harder than an economy I4 Diesel every day of the week).
[editline]20th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=PyroCF;45164450]Why don't Americans switch to more fuel efficient cars then if they have to drive long distances?[/quote]
Because fuel efficient cars are boring cars and we like our cars to be fun. Mostly. Except for the segment that buys a Lexus, but we like to call them idiots.
[quote] I understand not many places actually sell diesel [/quote] You can get diesel at pretty much every gas station since people do drive diesel powered pickup trucks fairly commonly. The problem is that diesel is more expensive. Prohibitively so.
In my area gasoline is $3.15/gal for 87. Diesel is $4.25/gal. You take two identical Jettas with manual gearboxes, only difference being one's TDI and one has the base gas I4, and you run them while comparing fuel costs, you just about break even. Yet the gas Jetta costs quite a bit less to buy initially, quite a bit less to service, and has a more useable powerband.
Which do you think we're gonna buy?
[quote]but a lot of petrol cars remapped to your fuel should be able to have a decent shot at good mileage.[/quote] 30-35MPG or so. You need to remember that anything below 1.6 liters is next to hopeless to sell to the general public here. The Fiat 500 only sells well in downtown metropolitan environments where the car never leaves the city, once you hit the suburbs the people driving things below 1.6 liters of displacement are the people riding motorbikes. The farther away from the city you get the bigger engines get...I'm about 15 miles from the nearest city limit out in rural Tennessee and the smallest car engine within a mile of my house is four liters. I own that engine, it's also incidentally the smallest automotive engine I own. The other three are all 4.9L.
The adage 'There's no replacement for displacement' rings true in America, and we have the road network and low gas prices to support driving a muscle car to work every day. You would go bankrupt driving a '67 Mustang GT350 to work every day, but on your same exact salary here you'd have no problem affording it.
Thanks for replying, it's hard for us euro's to understand American culture a lot of the time :v:
We've stopped chasing the big displacement engines and settled down for smaller engines powered by magic and light chassis. My Alfa Brera 3.2l is like one of the last built 'big' displacement engine cars over here. They're just not that efficient in terms of power and economy. I'm getting 260bhp from a 3.2 V6 whilst other cars (mainly ford) can get 300bhp out of 2.5s.
I'm surprised diesel hasn't taken off though over there though because if it's big torquey engines you want then it's perfect. They all have turbos now so the top end is that much of a problem anymore. Diesel is more expensive but you just have to fill up a lot less!
It's still crazy to think 30 mpg is viewed as sort of good over there when that's the normal over here now.
[QUOTE=Saber15;45152436] most of those are [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkgTSaSLO6I]complete death traps[/url][/QUOTE]
To be fair, A: Not everyone cares(I certainly don't) and B: Good luck finding any car for that price that does any better in a crash test. If you're on a Geo Metro budget the most advanced safety feature you're gonna be able to afford is a shoulder strap seatbelt.
[editline]20th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=PyroCF;45166732] I'm getting 260bhp from a 3.2 V6 whilst other cars (mainly ford) can get 300bhp out of 2.5s.[/quote]
And nine times out of ten the lower output, big inch engine lasts 30 years. UNless it's an Alfa, but hey, that's Alfa Romeo for ya.
[quote]I'm surprised diesel hasn't taken off though over there though because if it's big torquey engines you want then it's perfect.[/quote]
Big, torquey engines with a powerband that spans more than 900RPM. We like our engines big, we like them noisy, and we like power from idle to redline. And we [i]hate[/i] turbo lag. Hate hate hate it.
[quote]They all have turbos now so the top end is that much of a problem anymore.[/quote] And yet more expensive. An N/A V8 makes the same sort of power while being cheaper to make, repair and maintain. [quote] Diesel is more expensive but you just have to fill up a lot less![/quote] Not less enough. 99% of American car buyers that end up with a diesel inevitably end up with a Jetta TDI, since that's pretty much all that's available without a tow rating. And, as it turns out, you spend the same on fuel as you do with the gas I4. Diesel is so ridiculously more expensive that the lowered amount of fuel you use is offset by the more you pay for each gallon, you're literally no better off financially.
The one place where diesel's economy does win out is, oddly enough, in pickup trucks. Those 1 ton Duallies with the diesel engines in 'em that clog our highways? 25 highway 15-17 city out of something that weighs 6500 pounds and is the size of the Vatican. The gas engine variant gets 8 city 12 highway. So there, at least, diesel is financially viable, and that is where you see diesels in the daily American commute. Not in sedans.
[quote]It's still crazy to think 30 mpg is viewed as sort of good over there when that's the normal over here now.[/QUOTE]
30 is stellar. 20 is good. 15 is acceptable. we really do not give a flying fuck about fuel economy until it hits single digits, and even then we just sort of make a few jokes at its expense and shrug.
[QUOTE=Mega1mpact;45164408]Stop fucking whining. Our gas is almost 2.5 times as expensive and we're still buying it.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Pz8t8fM.gif[/img]
[url]http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gas+price+netherlands+vs+usa[/url][/QUOTE]
Your country is less than the size of Florida.
Instead of complaining about gas prices, the US public should demand more efficient cars. Whether they're fun or not doesn't really matter if the real problem is transportation. Also, the current tax was established in 1993, and it doesn't seem like they're accounting for inflation. This increase would probably just reestablish the 1993 price, if even that.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45167160]Instead of complaining about gas prices, the US public should demand more efficient cars. Whether they're fun or not doesn't really matter if the real problem is transportation. Also, the current tax was established in 1993, and it doesn't seem like they're accounting for inflation. This increase would probably just reestablish the 1993 price, if even that.[/QUOTE]
People do, however the oil industry is entrenched with the car companies and the dealerships and they're doing everything they can to fuck people up.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;45167192]People do, however the oil industry is entrenched with the car companies and the dealerships and they're doing everything they can to fuck people up.[/QUOTE]
Wearing your tin foil hat today, I take it? If people wanted more efficient cars Volkswagon wouldn't have such a hard time selling diesel sedans and Ford would have been propped up by the Focus, not the F150 and the Mustang, during the economic crisis a few years back. It has fuck all to do with the big oil conspiracy you're thinking of and everything to do with the simple fact that the American car buyer doesn't care all that much about fuel economy.
[QUOTE=TestECull;45166550]
and power(People here like a good, strong car, and I'm sorry but a ~3L gas V6 is going to pull harder than an economy I4 Diesel every day of the week).
[/QUOTE]
The soot and the power are definitely some of the top reasons why diesels never caught on in the US. Goddamn 1970s Mercs with diesels. Slowest and dirtiest things on the road. I've seen garbage trucks out-accelerate the things.
[editline]20th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=PyroCF;45164450]Why don't Americans switch to more fuel efficient cars then if they have to drive long distances? I understand not many places actually sell diesel but a lot of petrol cars remapped to your fuel should be able to have a decent shot at good mileage.
Just genuinely curious.[/QUOTE]
Most of the hyper-MPG cars available to the UK and the rest of Europe either aren't sold in the US or are gimped.
The EPA and NHTSA have some stringent and byzantine regulations that European cars can't meet without modifications - Peugot and Renault haven't been sold in the US since the 1980s, for example - and often times those regulations cripple their MPG due to added weight.
The highest MPG non-EV car you can get in the US is a Prius at 50mpg.
[QUOTE=TestECull;45166550]
Because fuel efficient cars are boring cars and we like our cars to be fun. Mostly. Except for the segment that buys a Lexus, but we like to call them idiots.
[/QUOTE]
Why do americans insist on automatics then though?
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;45167013]Your country is less than the size of Florida.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, full size means nothing. The bigger question ought to be the legth of the average commute.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;45169101]Why do americans insist on automatics then though?
To be honest, full size means nothing. The bigger question ought to be the legth of the average commute.[/QUOTE]
I think he said when he likes the car to be fun he meant the car itself, not how it is driven.
[editline]21st June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TestECull;45167354]Wearing your tin foil hat today, I take it? If people wanted more efficient cars Volkswagon wouldn't have such a hard time selling diesel sedans and Ford would have been propped up by the Focus, not the F150 and the Mustang, during the economic crisis a few years back. It has fuck all to do with the big oil conspiracy you're thinking of and everything to do with the simple fact that the American car buyer doesn't care all that much about fuel economy.[/QUOTE]
If the fuel excise increased maybe they would care about economy, and furthermore, emissions.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;45169101]Why do americans insist on automatics then though?[/QUOTE]
There really isnt much of a difference between automatic and manual mileage anymore, this isnt the 70s
For example: the [url=http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=noform&path=7&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Focus+FWD&srchtyp=ymm]2013 Ford Focus[/url] gets better mileage with the automatic
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45167160]Instead of complaining about gas prices, the US public should demand more efficient cars. Whether they're fun or not doesn't really matter if the real problem is transportation. Also, the current tax was established in 1993, and it doesn't seem like they're accounting for inflation. This increase would probably just reestablish the 1993 price, if even that.[/QUOTE]
They exist, we just don't buy them.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45170019]They exist, we just don't buy them.[/QUOTE]
Well, then all I can say is that I hope the gasoline tax rises to the point where you will.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45170096]Well, then all I can say is that I hope the gasoline tax rises to the point where you will.[/QUOTE]
Why? Also fun isn't the only reason people buy inefficient cars, many people also get huge vehicles that never really utilize their space because they feel "safe". I.e Ford Explorers
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45170140]Why? Also fun isn't the only reason people buy inefficient cars, many people also get huge vehicles that never really utilize their space because they feel "safe". I.e Ford Explorers[/QUOTE]
Gasoline is a limited resource, using it more efficiently would only make sense.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45170178]Gasoline is a limited resource, using it more efficiently would only make sense.[/QUOTE]
Driving classes could be better too imo, many Americans drive pretty poorly. Young drivers should learn to adhere to techniques such as on [URL="http://hypermiling.com/"]this website[/URL]. Not sure how it is over there, but a lot of the driving classes here include lots of unnecessary stuff, such as about 6 hours of instruction about alcohol/drugs.
I don't really agree with "American's just don't care about fuel efficiency" to a point. It's not that we don't care, its just that caring about it is new to us. Gas prices have only been considered "high" in the United States since like 2006ish. Gasoline didn't break $2/gal around where I live until sometime in 2007. Fuel efficiency is starting to catch on. Almost every new reasonably priced car boasts its MPG.
A lot of Europeans wonder why Americans don't simply drive more fuel efficient cars. It's partially been answered, but there is more.
The wealth inequality is the highest its ever been in America. Even people who work full time jobs are struggling to get by. With times as tough as they are, very few of us can go out and afford to buy a new fuel efficient car. Most struggling people can only sacrifice a few thousand dollars for a car these days.
With a budget <$5000 for a car, the pickings are pretty slim. Most of the time you can only choose cars from the 90s, or early 2000s at best. Cars built in the U.S back then weren't great quality, so yeah you might be able to find a mid 90s Accord that gets 25 MPG, but its going to be less than reliable and have >175,000 miles on it. Finding a car that old that is reliable can sometimes be tough. Sometimes that '98 ford explorer is the only thing on the used car market that you can afford that is half way reliable.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45170096]Well, then all I can say is that I hope the gasoline tax rises to the point where you will.[/QUOTE]
That would severely hurt the lower/lower middle class who already has trouble affording gas.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;45146613][URL="http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/11/12/uk-iea-outlook-idUKBRE9AB0N920131112"]And we're working towards the top spot[/URL][/QUOTE]
But that's thanks to fracking and fracking is bad for the environment. :(
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45170096]Well, then all I can say is that I hope the gasoline tax rises to the point where you will.[/QUOTE]
ok
lemme just pull out the money out of my ass to buy a modern fuel efficient car
[QUOTE=Soldier32;45171149]ok
lemme just pull out the money out of my ass to buy a modern fuel efficient car[/QUOTE]
How about a higher tax on gas, lower tax (if you even have a substantial tax on cars) on efficient vehicles to make them cheaper? It's like everything's either strictly possible or impossible with you guys. Was Europe just always rich and that's why we have higher standards for motor vehicles? Make the tax increase gradual and the tax decrease instantaneous, that way people will have a fairly long time to get a fuel efficient car.
I was in the US just a few months ago, and while I understand that poor people might get fucked over by this, there are so many people who have extremely large new cars. It's ridiculous. Maybe remove the fuel efficiency requirement for cars cheaper than "arbitrary amount"?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45173185]How about a higher tax on gas, lower tax (if you even have a substantial tax on cars) on efficient vehicles to make them cheaper? It's like everything's either strictly possible or impossible with you guys. Was Europe just always rich and that's why we have higher standards for motor vehicles? Make the tax increase gradual and the tax decrease instantaneous, that way people will have a fairly long time to get a fuel efficient car.
I was in the US just a few months ago, and while I understand that poor people might get fucked over by this, there are so many people who have extremely large new cars. It's ridiculous. Maybe remove the fuel efficiency requirement for cars cheaper than "arbitrary amount"?[/QUOTE]
You do realize that it's not just about affording the vehicle itself right? If the price of gas goes up, the price of everything goes up, because everything is shipped by trucks. So not only wouldn't the lower class be able to afford gas to go to work now, but they also wouldn't be able to afford basic things like food. But hey, at least they have a car that gets good fuel economy.....
Snip
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