• Valve has a new "Agreement Binding Arbitration Clause" and it's not good at all.
    179 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;37031812]So of course, what you're saying is that it's okay because it's Valve that's doing it.[/QUOTE] It's how they handled it. Or have you guys not been able to figure that out by reading the thread?
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;37031822]It's how they handled it. Or have you guys not been able to figure that out by reading the thread?[/QUOTE] So, you're saying Valve is in the right because they used prettier words?
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;37031822]It's how they handled it. Or have you guys not been able to figure that out by reading the thread?[/QUOTE] Seriously? Now you're just spewing bullshit. Both Sony and Valve notified the users of the change before they hit "I Agree" in ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE SAW. It is the exact same thing, just Sony did it instead of Valve so people were pissed.
[QUOTE=Falubii;37031862]Seriously? Now you're just spewing bullshit. Both Sony and Valve notified the users of the change before they hit "I Agree" in ALL CAPS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE SAW. It is the exact same thing, just Sony did it instead of Valve so people were pissed.[/QUOTE]I think its more the fact that they did it in right when they were being hit with a series of class action lawsuits being brought on because of their abysmal handling on the PSN Hack.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031891]I think its more the fact that they did it in right when they were being hit with a series of class action lawsuits being brought on because of their abysmal handling on the PSN Hack.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Glorbo;37031755]I was just looking for that, thanks. In any case, I pretty much think this is bullshit. What if Valve has a similar incident like Sony had and has its users info and credentials leaked? This is a very reasonable case for a class action lawsuit, and they're basically saying "welp, if we fuck up royally, non of that is our fault". It's stupid.[/QUOTE] So yes, they did just fuck up with PSN, but Valve also has lots of valuable info that could be vulnerable as well. I remember a while ago there was some kind of Steam hacking scare. It wasn't anything too serious if I remember correctly.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031891]I think its more the fact that they did it in right when they were being hit with a series of class action lawsuits being brought on because of their abysmal handling on the PSN Hack.[/QUOTE] So what? The timing doesn't change the fact that it's rubbish. They're preventing you from holding them to justice in case they fuck up, and that's just wrong.
[QUOTE=Falubii;37031901][/QUOTE]You can still file a normal lawsuit. You know those exist, correct? [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Glorbo;37031932]So what? The timing doesn't change the fact that it's rubbish. They're preventing you from holding them to justice in case they fuck up, and that's just wrong.[/QUOTE]No they aren't, for fucks sake. They even make it plainly clear that you can still file individual lawsuits against them just the same as any other day.
[QUOTE=Glorbo;37031844]So, you're saying Valve is in the right because they used prettier words?[/QUOTE] Which way would you rather have it? Covertly put in during the middle of a crisis and PR disaster(Sony) or be given an announcement when nothing is happening detailing what they have done and their reasoning for doing so(Valve)? When Sony and EA did it it seem really shady because they just kinda slipped it in and hoped nobody would bother looking. Besides, Valve has gone out of their way to say you can still take them to court only not on an ridiculously huge scale(and they explained why) and they pay for your legal fee regardless of whether you win or lose. Frankly, the way I see it the only difference going forward is that instead of a huge class action there would just be many individual cases in its place if something was to go down.
I like how quickly this has gone from fuck the SSA to read the article to fuck the SSA again.
[QUOTE=Falubii;37031901]So yes, they did just fuck up with PSN, but Valve also has lots of valuable info that could be vulnerable as well. I remember a while ago there was some kind of Steam hacking scare. It wasn't anything too serious if I remember correctly.[/QUOTE]Their forums were hacked. And nothing was compromised. They also were quick to alert their customers to it instead of trying to pretend everything was perfectly fine until the problem hit critical mass.
[QUOTE=Glorbo;37031932]So what? The timing doesn't change the fact that it's rubbish. They're preventing you from holding them to justice in case they fuck up, and that's just wrong.[/QUOTE] I'd say it does and no they aren't.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031935]You can still file a normal lawsuit. You know those exist, correct? [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] No they aren't, for fucks sake. They even make it plainly clear that you can still file individual lawsuits against them just the same as any other day.[/QUOTE] But if something similar to the PlayStation Network outage occurred that affected millions of users I'd think it would be easier and more helpful to the consumers if a class action was filed.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;37031944]Which way would you rather have it? Covertly put in during the middle of the crisis and PR disaster(Sony) or be given an announcement when nothing is happening detailing what they have done and their reasoning for doing so(Valve)? When Sony and EA did it it seem really shady because they just kinda slipped it in and hoped nobody would bother looking. Besides, Valve has gone out of their way to say you can still take them to court only not on an ridiculously huge scale(and they explained why) and they pay for your legal fee regardless of whether you win or lose. Frankly, the way I see it the only difference going forward is that instead of a huge class action there would just be many individual cases in its place if something was to go down.[/QUOTE]I said it in the other thread, but Class Actions often only benefit the lawyers who carry them out. It is also often a concern that law firms will start Class Action lawsuits just to get money. The idea of a Class Action is good in theory, but in practice it often ends up with the people who should be benefiting getting screwed, and the lawyers becoming incredibly wealthy. [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Falubii;37031957]But if something similar to the PlayStation Network outage occurred that affected millions of users I'd think it would be easier and more helpful to the consumers if a class action was filed.[/QUOTE]Not really, they can all file their own individual cases which could actually have a greater impact on them than a single class action.
[QUOTE=Falubii;37031613][b]Hey everyone look at this:[/b] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1149070[/url] Some Facepunch responses: That was 8 months ago. Don't even pretend Valve isn't getting special treatment here.[/QUOTE] Arbitration is basically a big fuck you to consumers who have a genuine, common grievance. I recall the figures being around 90% of cases being ruled in favor of the company under individual arbitration, as it effectively removes the power individuals have to unite and present their case as more than just an individual problem. It's regressive and unfairly weighted to those who implement it, disallowing people to make a collective and concerted effort is tantamount to suppressing their freedom to assemble, it's like banning unions because 'fuck you' etc. So Valve is going the way of most other video-game giants, essentially allowing them to wipe the slate clean if they deliver an obviously substandard, broken product. The people treating Valve differently than Sony are only kidding themselves.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031969]I said it in the other thread, but Class Actions often only benefit the lawyers who carry them out. It is also often a concern that law firms will start Class Action lawsuits just to get money. The idea of a Class Action is good in theory, but in practice it often ends up with the people who should be benefiting getting screwed, and the lawyers becoming incredibly wealthy. [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] Not really, they can all file their own individual cases which could actually have a greater impact on them than a single class action.[/QUOTE] I vaguely remember a high profile class action a long while back that involved a shit ton of people and I think everybody only got like around a dollar or so for their troubles.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031969]I said it in the other thread, but Class Actions often only benefit the lawyers who carry them out. It is also often a concern that law firms will start Class Action lawsuits just to get money. The idea of a Class Action is good in theory, but in practice it often ends up with the people who should be benefiting getting screwed, and the lawyers becoming incredibly wealthy. [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] Not really, they can all file their own individual cases which could actually have a greater impact on them than a single class action.[/QUOTE] But Valve knows most users would cut their losses and not go through the hassles of legislation individually, which is why they added this clause (which was smart from a business perspective). Also, I don't know where you get this idea that class action lawsuits never helped anyone, but I think it would compensate far more users than Valve just saying, "You're on your own, good luck!" [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=chunkymonkey;37031999]I vaguely remember a high profile class action a long while back that involved a shit ton of people and I think everybody only got like around a dollar or so for their troubles.[/QUOTE] That could happen, but again, more money would go to the consumers in general.
So basically Valve are saying "We'll pay for damages, but we're not going to give you a unreasonable amount of money."?
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;37031999]I vaguely remember a high profile class action a long while back that involved a shit ton of people and I think everybody only got like around a dollar or so for their troubles.[/QUOTE]May have been the one against PG&E. The lawfirm that carried that one out often looks like heroes, but they became almost inconceivably wealthy, while many of the people actually affected got next to nothing.
[QUOTE=Ereunity;37032015]So basically Valve are saying "We'll pay for damages, but we're not going to give you a unreasonable amount of money."?[/QUOTE] They're saying if all Steam users have the same problem they have to take it up with Valve individually.
Why are you trusting Kotaku on this one? Seriously? They're rubbish as a news source.
[QUOTE=Falubii;37032006]Also, I don't know where you get this idea that class action lawsuits never helped anyone, [/QUOTE]I don't know either since I didn't say that at any point. So don't even try that. [QUOTE]but I think it would compensate far more users than Valve just saying, "You're on your own, good luck!"[/QUOTE]Not really, since an individual can get much better representation of their case in an individual lawsuit than a class action where everyone is wrapped up in to a single bundle.
I don't think people are listening to Kotaku, we are just discussing the EULA at this point.
You guys are hilarious. No matter what you say, you protested when Sony put this through and now that Valve does it its all right all of the sudden. You are a bunch of hypocritical fanboys. Not that I care since this has no legal effect in germany anyway.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37031998]Arbitration is basically a big fuck you to consumers who have a genuine, common grievance. I recall the figures being around 90% of cases being ruled in favor of the company under individual arbitration, as it effectively removes the power individuals have to unite and present their case as more than just an individual problem. It's regressive and unfairly weighted to those who implement it, disallowing people to make a collective and concerted effort is tantamount to suppressing their freedom to assemble, it's like banning unions because 'fuck you' etc. So Valve is going the way of most other video-game giants, essentially allowing them to wipe the slate clean if they deliver an obviously substandard, broken product. The people treating Valve differently than Sony are only kidding themselves.[/QUOTE]Read the damned thread and don't just cherry pick the post you think gives your the most validity. [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=BloodYScar;37032059]You guys are hilarious. No matter what you say, you protested when Sony put this through and now that Valve does it its all right all of the sudden. You are a bunch of hypocritical fanboys.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031891]I think its more the fact that they did it in right when they were being hit with a series of class action lawsuits being brought on because of their abysmal handling on the PSN Hack.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Not that I care since this has no legal effect in germany anyway.[/QUOTE] Yeah, they even point that out in the SSA. Congratulations, you've stated the obvious.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37032050]I don't know either since I didn't say that at any point. So don't even try that.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37031969]I said it in the other thread, but Class Actions often only benefit the lawyers who carry them out. It is also often a concern that law firms will start Class Action lawsuits just to get money. The idea of a Class Action is good in theory, but in practice it often ends up with the people who should be benefiting getting screwed, and the lawyers becoming incredibly wealthy.[/QUOTE] I didn't mean literally never, but I don't believe they do more harm than good, which is the idea you seem to have. [QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37032050]Not really, since an individual can get much better representation of their case in an individual lawsuit than a class action where everyone is wrapped up in to a single bundle.[/QUOTE] But Valve knows people aren't all going to go work out their problems with an arbitrator. With a class action you just see a shady commercial and call a number and you're almost done.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37032061]Read the damned thread and don't just cherry pick the post you think gives your the most validity.[/QUOTE] I thought about making a sarcastic reply to this but it is just such an awful post.
[QUOTE=Falubii;37032077]But Valve knows people aren't all going to go work out their problems with an arbitrator. With a class action you just see a shady commercial and call a number and you're almost done.[/QUOTE]The first part is at best meaningless supposition. But you actually helped to prove my point with the second part. With class actions, an individual doesn't get much representation in the overall case. With an individual lawsuit, they get complete representation. [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lonestriper;37032101]I thought about making a sarcastic reply to this but it is just such an awful post.[/QUOTE]So you chose to make a worse one? Well done.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37032107]The first part is at best meaningless supposition. But you actually helped to prove my point with the second part. With class actions, an individual doesn't get much representation in the overall case. With an individual lawsuit, they get complete representation.[/QUOTE] More money will get into the customers' wallets overall with class action lawsuits than if people were only given the option to take it to court or arbitration individually.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37032107]So you chose to make a worse one? Well done.[/QUOTE] Instead of reply to any of the claims I made you decided to go for a frankly insulting veiled 'fuck you' to everything I said. It is unbelievable that you are so concerned with your own commandeering of this thread that you are unable to process the fact that I didn't factor you in to any facet of my argument. I don't give a shit about what you wrote earlier or how that would affect my reply to someone else.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37032151]Instead of reply to any of the claims I made you decided to go for a frankly insulting veiled 'fuck you' to everything I said. It is unbelievable that you are so concerned with your own commandeering of this thread that you are unable to process the fact that I didn't factor you in to any facet of my argument. I don't give a shit about what you wrote earlier or how that would affect my reply to someone else.[/QUOTE]Your points had already been covered previously in the thread. Its your problem if you didn't read the rest of the thread or just missed them. So, I say again, the read the damned thread. [editline]1st August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Falubii;37032148]More money will get into the customers' wallets overall with class action lawsuits than if people were only given the option to take it to court or arbitration individually.[/QUOTE]Not really, especially since they even said they'll cover the legal fees for small claims and arbitration regardless of who wins. You know that with a class action, after the lawfirm takes its massive share of any winnings, that money pretty much has to be divided up between every single individual involved in the case, correct? It often ends up being a very small amount left over for the affected individuals.
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