[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;47141910]She fought for it.[/QUOTE]
If I went to Tricare (Military Health Insurance) and asked my command for permission to receive HRT I'd get told "lol no sucks better go to Mental Health". The only reason Manning is getting this shit before everyone else is because of the massive media coverage on her case. If all persons are equal where is the massive outcry for the other thousands of people in the military?
[QUOTE=Smoot;47140632]I'm disappointed that my taxes are going towards this.[/QUOTE]
But if you were the one receiving help, you'd be thrilled that we live in such an enlightened society with people who help out strangers.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;47141937]If I went to Tricare (Military Health Insurance) and asked my command for permission to receive HRT I'd get told "lol no sucks better go to Mental Health". The only reason Manning is getting this shit before everyone els3 because of the massive media coverage on her case. If all persons are equal where is the massive outcry for the other thousands of people in the military?[/QUOTE]
it's a step forward. one person getting it is better than none.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;47141901]Shout out to all the trans men and women of the US military that have to suffer silently while this individual is considered top priority.[/QUOTE]
Its a harsh reality of life that people who are more visible in the public eye will get what they want more easily. This applies to literally everything so I don't see why you're making a special point to bring it up.
[editline]14th February 2015[/editline]
I mean like yo when you consider how many trans women are murdered on a WEEKLY basis this is a pretty monumental step forward.
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;47141704]Others who suffer from the same problem have to work and pay for their treatment, and many of them can't afford it. Why should they be unable to receive proper treatment while a criminal is able to? Unless the supposed solution is to put tax dollars towards everyone with the same problem, why should Manning get the better end?[/QUOTE]
when you're a prisoner you become a ward of the state, she can't work and pay for her treatment because she's in prison. this is a problem with the american healthcare system
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;47141899]Oh no your tax money is going towards making someone happy? You poor thing. Does baby want his bottle?
Seriously? Get over it.[/QUOTE]
So wait, if the government would decide to take all your money to say buy lollipops for children. You can't complain or you are a crybaby? Because your tax money is making people happy?
I don't mind what they are doing with Manning but what you just said is stupid.
How about all americans give me 1 cent? I mean it's just one cent it's not like it's going to make you poor and I promise it will make me happy.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;47142077]So wait, if the government would decide to take all your money to say buy lollipops for children. You can't complain or you are a crybaby? Because your tax money is making people happy?
I don't mind what they are doing with Manning but what you just said is stupid.
How about all americans give me 1 cent? I mean it's just one cent it's not like it's going to make you poor and I promise it will make me happy.[/QUOTE]
tax benefits are meant to have a legitimate purpose, children wanting lollipops doesn't really fit the bill.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;47142056]when you're a prisoner you become a ward of the state, she can't work and pay for her treatment because she's in prison. this is a problem with the american healthcare system[/QUOTE]
We should focus on the healthcare system first then.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47141280]When this traitor gets the treatment they want, but I see the VA and Army medical denying people treatment, or half assing it, or just never getting around to give treatment to Soldiers that have served honorably, then I really kind of get bitter. Manning needs to pay for this treatment with his insurance, not on the government's dime. The Army does not owe him a damn thing.[/QUOTE]
This makes me glad that soldiers like this guy are fighting to protect a constitution that prevents cruel and unusual punishment so when people like this guy come out with this disgusting attitude of petty, vengeful, and in this case oozing with nationalism "YOUR PUNISHMENT MUST BE MORE SEVERE!!!" shit, it doesn't do anything :v:
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;47142253]We should focus on the healthcare system first then.[/QUOTE]
well no, it's the duty of the state to look after prisoners
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;47141899]Oh no your tax money is going towards making someone happy? You poor thing. Does baby want his bottle?
Seriously? Get over it.[/QUOTE]
somehow i doubt this guy is so disappointed that his tax dollars were also used to torture her
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;47141875]So it's cruel and unusual punishment if the government fails to provide hormones for a criminal; but not for them to fail in providing for thousands of non-criminals?
I'm not arguing that Manning should receive the proper treatment. I'm saying it's unjust to give Manning what is considered a "human right" and deprive others.[/QUOTE]
Again, it isn't punishment to fail to provide to those not being punished. But that's an argument of semantics. I agree, it isn't right to let millions suffer.
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;47142253]We should focus on the healthcare system first then.[/QUOTE]
This isn't a one or the other sort of thing. The political battle for healthcare has been going on for years. We should celebrate Manning gaining this, because it sets the precedent for all trans prisoners to legally receive trans related medical services. Prisoners should be treated because they cannot treat themselves. Prisoners are punished through enprisonment, not denial of medical services. To others: this, ethically speaking, has nothing to do with being a traitor or being in the military.
[editline]14th February 2015[/editline]
this also gives a legal reference to forcing healthcare at large in the US to support the needs of trans people
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;47142077]So wait, if the government would decide to take all your money to say buy lollipops for children. You can't complain or you are a crybaby? Because your tax money is making people happy?
I don't mind what they are doing with Manning but what you just said is stupid.
How about all americans give me 1 cent? I mean it's just one cent it's not like it's going to make you poor and I promise it will make me happy.[/QUOTE]
Look at that one dude with the anime cat avatar, he did the math on how utterly insignificant the amount of money going to Chelsea's HRT is.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47141280]When this traitor gets the treatment they want, but I see the VA and Army medical denying people treatment, or half assing it, or just never getting around to give treatment to Soldiers that have served honorably, then I really kind of get bitter. Manning needs to pay for this treatment with his insurance, not on the government's dime. The Army does not owe him a damn thing.[/QUOTE]
So your solution to ineffective treatment on the part of the VA and Army Medical is to expand that ineffective treatment to even more people?
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;47140922]Well, there's dispute between researchers on gender dysphoria. [/QUOTE]
Oh no, the dispute is only really on non-binary shit.
When it comes to MTF and FTM people, they have a genuine medical disorder which really badly affects their quality of life. True, transitioning in the 20th century was mixed at best, but nowadays early intervention and better knowledge means most trans people can live very fulfilling lives with a great deal of support and assistance.
What does a doctor do when somebody has an ailment? They provide the cure (until they develop the preventative). Transitioning is the cure.
I very strongly argue that the US government is obligated to provide her with all of the medical treatment that she needs to transition.
[QUOTE=Deng;47142594]Oh no, the dispute is only really on non-binary shit.
When it comes to MTF and FTM people, they have a genuine medical disorder which really badly affects their quality of life. True, transitioning in the 20th century was mixed at best, but nowadays early intervention and better knowledge means most trans people can live very fulfilling lives with a great deal of support and assistance.
What does a doctor do when somebody has an ailment? They provide the cure (until they develop the preventative). Transitioning is the cure.[/QUOTE]
The thought that being transgender is a disorder is so amazingly ludicrious.
the shit transition tackles is the feeling of [url=http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf]gender dysphoria[/url], since it's entirely possible to be transgender and not feel said dysphoria.
Don't even dare to pathologize my identity, and all of these people who do not fall under these cisnormative ideas.
[QUOTE=Levithan;47142616]The thought that being transgender is a disorder is so amazingly ludicrious.[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder[/URL]
I don't see what the issue is, considering it's a medical issue that causes people severe mental and physical problems and can only be treated through the application of medical science.
[QUOTE=Deng;47142647][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder[/URL][/QUOTE]
Homosexuality was once diagnosed as a pathological mental illness
Medical terminology is not infallible, it can sometimes be subject to cultural norms which change over time.
[QUOTE=Levithan;47142616]The thought that being transgender is a disorder is so amazingly ludicrious.
the shit transition tackles is the feeling of [url=http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf]gender dysphoria[/url], since it's entirely possible to be transgender and not feel said dysphoria.
Don't even dare to pathologize my identity, and all of these people who do not fall under these cisnormative ideas.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Deng means it quite like that judging by the rest of the post. He literally says what most of the rest of us would say about it.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;47141937]If I went to Tricare (Military Health Insurance) and asked my command for permission to receive HRT I'd get told "lol no sucks better go to Mental Health". The only reason Manning is getting this shit before everyone else is because of the massive media coverage on her case. If all persons are equal where is the massive outcry for the other thousands of people in the military?[/QUOTE]
so your solution to the problem of "most people don't get HRT in the military" is "take HRT away from a single person in the military"
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;47142660]Homosexuality was once diagnosed as a pathological mental illness[/QUOTE]
Homosexuals don't need surgery and hormonal treatment though.
Transgender people often feel suicidal if they can't access those things. Giving them hormones and surgery actually improves their quality of life.
Just because it's a medical condition it doesn't mean anything bad. People have horrible diseases or disorders or defects or that sort of thing all the time. Doctors work to help you, and pathologizing it is normal procedure.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;47142077]So wait, if the government would decide to take all your money to say buy lollipops for children. You can't complain or you are a crybaby? Because your tax money is making people happy?
I don't mind what they are doing with Manning but what you just said is stupid.
How about all americans give me 1 cent? I mean it's just one cent it's not like it's going to make you poor and I promise it will make me happy.[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ stop posting.
How can you compare tax dollars being used for a legitimate purpose to buying lollipops for children? You're basically saying transgender hormone therapy is illegitimate.
[QUOTE=joes33431;47142670]so your solution to the problem of "most people don't get HRT in the military" is "take HRT away from a single person in the military"[/QUOTE]
No,obviously don't stop giving it to her now that it's started but I would have rather seen honorable service members receiving HRT first than Manning, since the whole felony and betrayed her country/branch of service thing.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;47141420]Because committing borderline espionage is not a treasonous thing to ddo.[/QUOTE]
By definition, she committed horrendous acts but as always, history is won by the victor of the battle. I think she did what any reasonable and compassionate person should do.
[QUOTE=Deng;47142686]Homosexuals don't need surgery and hormonal treatment though.
[/QUOTE]
Applying a serious chemical/hormonal solution to a problem many people with said "disorder" don't find to be serious does not somehow add validity to notions of disorder. In backwards cultures homosexuals may be given testosterone as treatment for a perceived disorder, does that make homosexuality a medical disorder? Every time and every culture thinks their science/medicine is infallible, and yet every 50-100 years on people always look back on many of those practices as being primitive and misguided, it's not going to be any different for our current medical science when it gets more advanced.
[quote]Transgender people often feel suicidal if they can't access those things.[/quote]
Do they feel suicidal because they are uncomfortable with their own self image, or do they feel suicidal because of the pressure and judgments exerted by those around them? Social pressure is often as powerful or more powerful in driving suicidal urges as ones own self-image. I'll concede that to some people it may be a disorder, but logically there's nothing wrong or disorderly about not confiding to a binary and rigid concept of gender behavior. If somebody has no fixed notion of gender for themselves and lives a healthy life then they don't need to be labeled as having a disorder, because there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them.
One can be weirdly pragmatic about it and assume that somebody will need fixed gender consignment in order to feel comfortable around others who are different from themselves, but again, that does not seem to be a fundamental issue with having a trans-gender, because the entire concept of binary gender behavior is ultimately transitory and subjective to the time/culture it exists within. Just because somebody's internal and external gender identity is not the same as everybody else, doesn't necessarily mean they have a disorder, any health "disorder" may just arise because they are treated differently and judged by their peers, IE: no fault of their own.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;47142931] In backwards cultures homosexuals may be given testosterone as treatment for a perceived disorder, does that make homosexuality a medical disorder?[/quote]
Homosexuals don't feel the need to commit suicide because they have the wrong body. Transgender people transition because they feel physically uncomfortable with their own bodies and the fact they have the wrong bits that don't match up.
[quote]Every time and every culture thinks their science/medicine is infallible, and yet every 50-100 years on people always look back on many of those practices as being primitive and misguided, it's not going to be any different for our current medical science when it gets more advanced.[/quote]
Can't people use this to argue in the opposite direction to say that science backing up transgenders is invalid and that there is no basis for letting them transition then?
[quote]Do they feel suicidal because they are uncomfortable with their own self image, or do they feel suicidal because of the pressure and judgments exerted by those around them? Social pressure is often as powerful or more powerful in driving suicidal urges as ones own self-image. I'll concede that to some people it may be a disorder, but logically there's nothing wrong or disorderly about not confiding to a binary and rigid concept of gender behavior. If somebody has no fixed notion of gender for themselves and lives a healthy life then they don't need to be labeled as having a disorder, because there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them.
One can be weirdly pragmatic about it and assume that somebody will need fixed gender consignment in order to feel comfortable around others who are different from themselves, but again, that does not seem to be a fundamental issue with having a trans-gender, because the entire concept of binary gender behavior is ultimately transitory and subjective to the time/culture it exists within. Just because somebody's internal and external gender identity is not the same as everybody else, doesn't necessarily mean they have a disorder, any health "disorder" may just arise because they are treated differently and judged by their peers, IE: no fault of their own.[/QUOTE]
Transgender people feel depressed regardless of culture or therapy or whatever.
You can go on about how gender is some sort of fluid concept that is subjective to time and culture, but people who subscribe to this idea have caused these sorts of problems:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer[/url]
This man was born male and forcibly changed into a girl. No matter how much they tried, they could not make him into a girl, and when he later found out what happened he committed suicide.
Gender is rooted deep in biology and the brain. Transgender people, at root, are not depressed because of other people (although thats an important secondary cause). The basis of their problems is that they have the wrong body that simply won't do the job. Fix the body, and you fix the problem. You can't force an MTF or female into thinking they are a male no matter how hard you try.
And the soldiers who suffer from PTSD and physical trauma from the battlefield still get to sit on massive wait lists.
As much as I support trans rights, Chelsea should not receive the treatment, at least not from the government's expense.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47142574]So your solution to ineffective treatment on the part of the VA and Army Medical is to expand that ineffective treatment to even more people?[/QUOTE]
I would rather see an honorable service member receive treatment in place of someone who served dishonorably. That's what I was trying to say.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;47142847]No,obviously don't stop giving it to her now that it's started but I would have rather seen honorable service members receiving HRT first than Manning, since the whole felony and betrayed her country/branch of service thing.[/QUOTE]
the point is though that because she's a prisoner and unable to provide medical stuff for herself it's the governments responsibility. i guess the way of thinking is that other servive members who are working and earning money should be able to provide it for themselves (i think non-socialized healthcare is absolutely fucked & ridiculous)
People who already pay taxes for thousands of prisoners who have done insignificant shit. What's the difference one person is going to make?
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