[QUOTE=SKEEA;47143119]I would rather see an honorable service member receive treatment in place of someone who served dishonorably. That's what I was trying to say.[/QUOTE]
Why not both?
I mean, it would be fucking nice for it to be that way.
[QUOTE=Skerion;47143299]Why not both?
I mean, it would be fucking nice for it to be that way.[/QUOTE]
Because that person signed up, accepted all of the duties that they are accountable for, and immediately forsook them, then got prison time, made a huge media pity party to get what they wanted, and got the treatment denied to others only due to the media storm? For real? I acknowledge that it is a medical issue, but to do all of that and they end up getting treatment due to those actions alone is despicable.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47143379]Because that person signed up, accepted all of the duties that they are accountable for, and immediately forsook them, then got prison time, made a huge media pity party to get what they wanted, and got the treatment denied to others only due to the media storm? For real? I acknowledge that it is a medical issue, but to do all of that and they end up getting treatment due to those actions alone is despicable.[/QUOTE]
You're still complaining about the people that don't get treated, and ignored the question.
"Why not both?"
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;47143696]You're still complaining about the people that don't get treated, and ignored the question.
"Why not both?"[/QUOTE]
The medical system that Chelsea is currently a part of is the Army. She thumbed her nose at the Army, betrayed every trust that she willingly accepted, and is still getting medical care from the Army. I live with an Army vet that struggles to get treatment from the system, and has lacked for a long time. I don't think that people should get medical care from the organization that they betrayed, instead having to pay for it themselves however they can, rather than the government just giving it to them due to media pressure. It really rubs me the wrong way.
Good for her
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47143721]The medical system that Chelsea is currently a part of is the Army. She thumbed her nose at the Army, betrayed every trust that she willingly accepted, and is still getting medical care from the Army. I live with an Army vet that struggles to get treatment from the system, and has lacked for a long time. I don't think that people should get medical care from the organization that they betrayed, instead having to pay for it themselves however they can, rather than the government just giving it to them due to media pressure. It really rubs me the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
she's in prison, they have to provide for her medical care because she can't provide it herself (due to being in prison)
[QUOTE=.Lain;47142111]tax benefits are meant to have a legitimate purpose, children wanting lollipops doesn't really fit the bill.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;47142797]Jesus Christ stop posting.
How can you compare tax dollars being used for a legitimate purpose to buying lollipops for children? You're basically saying transgender hormone therapy is illegitimate.[/QUOTE]
I never said it's illegitimate. I even said I'm okay with what they are doing with Manning. And I'm not comparing shit. You said that if your tax money is making other people happy you can't complain about where it's going. What [I]you [/I]said is stupid. Not what they are doing with Manning. Why can't you people read?
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;47142460]Look at that one dude with the anime cat avatar, he did the math on how utterly insignificant the amount of money going to Chelsea's HRT is.[/QUOTE]
And so is 1 cent. So why won't every american give me a cent?
Look I don't see anything wrong with what they are doing for Manning there but the shit you come up with as arguments to support it make no sense. "The tax is small for individual tax payer" "the money makes someone happy" are not good arguments.
The state has to take medical care of their prisoners and she's being treated for a medical condition which causes several psychological problems including but not limited to severe depression. That's all there is to it.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47143721]The medical system that Chelsea is currently a part of is the Army. She thumbed her nose at the Army, betrayed every trust that she willingly accepted, and is still getting medical care from the Army. I live with an Army vet that struggles to get treatment from the system, and has lacked for a long time. I don't think that people should get medical care from the organization that they betrayed, instead having to pay for it themselves however they can, rather than the government just giving it to them due to media pressure. It really rubs me the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
You've not explained why someone should be denied medical service while in prison, except "because traitor". One prisoner getting medical treatment isn't denying it from other prisoners, or veterans, or active service members (which you did say it did, incorrectly).
An important part of our legal punishment system is providing healthcare to prisoners. The punishment system delivers punishment through confinement and other restrictions meant to prevent further offence. Denying medical care is not a part of it.
[QUOTE=bitches;47143977]You've not explained why someone should be denied medical service while in prison, except "because traitor". One prisoner getting medical treatment isn't denying it from other prisoners, or veterans, or active service members (which you did say it did, incorrectly).
An important part of our legal punishment system is providing healthcare to prisoners. The punishment system delivers punishment through confinement and other restrictions meant to prevent further offence. Denying medical care is not a part of it.[/QUOTE]
It is deserved for our prison medical system to provide treatment. That does not mean I have to like it at all.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47144041]It is deserved for our prison medical system to provide treatment. That does not mean I have to like it at all.[/QUOTE]
You say she deserves the treatment, but you don't like it? What? Or do you mean that you don't think she deserves it, because you want her in particular to receive refusal of treatment as a punishment?
It's good for him, but I'm of the opinion that elective medical procedures shouldn't be at anyone else's expense.
Why is the line drawn at elective?
and what are those minorities that you hate?
did... did you just take that at face value?
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;47143125]the point is though that because she's a prisoner and unable to provide medical stuff for herself it's the governments responsibility. i guess the way of thinking is that other servive members who are working and earning money should be able to provide it for themselves (i think non-socialized healthcare is absolutely fucked & ridiculous)[/QUOTE]
The Government pays for every active duty service members healthcare already.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;47142660]Homosexuality was once diagnosed as a pathological mental illness
Medical terminology is not infallible, it can sometimes be subject to cultural norms which change over time.[/QUOTE]
And nowadays people accept homosexuality without trying to treat it. So should people with the disorder just deal with it without treatment?
[QUOTE=Levithan;47142616]The thought that being transgender is a disorder is so amazingly ludicrious.
the shit transition tackles is the feeling of [url=http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf]gender dysphoria[/url], since it's entirely possible to be transgender and not feel said dysphoria.
Don't even dare to pathologize my identity, and all of these people who do not fall under these cisnormative ideas.[/QUOTE]
It's not a mental illness or disorder but it is something more like a sub type of intersex where the brain is physically one sex and the body another. The fact is it NEEDS to be pathologized, if it wasn't pathologized it wouldn't be covered by insurance company's in the US or a country's nationalised health service like the NHS. It would be classed as elective rather than medically necessary. That would be horrid for the poor, the ones why rely on their country's health system to cover their transition. I'm glad it's pathologized becasue it means it's not all in a persons head, that's it's physical in nature and when they say a man's/woman's brain in a woman's/man's body it's scientifically accurate, that a country's health care system will cover transition so both the poor and rich can transition.
[QUOTE=Deng;47142594]Oh no, the dispute is only really on non-binary shit.[/QUOTE]
So the people who first started research on gender dysphoria and carrying out gender reassignment surgery, the people who have done more research over a longer period of time and with far more subjects than anyone else (indeed, the only people to have done serious long-term research on the matter) have gone "we screwed up, our initial conclusion was incorrect, gender dysphoria is really a psychological disorder".
That's not enough to cast the matter into dispute?
Nah, everyone else just keeps going based on research that is now considered incorrect by its own authors...
[QUOTE=Deng;47142686] Transgender people often feel suicidal if they can't access those things. Giving them hormones and surgery actually improves their quality of life.[/QUOTE]
First sentence is true. Second sentence...
Is it really improving quality of life if the 3 groups (people wanting HRT/Surgery, people who wanted and got HRT/surgery, and people who wanted but decided against HRT/surgery) all have nearly identical rates of depression/suicide/suicide attempts?
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;47144814]So the people who first started research on gender dysphoria and carrying out gender reassignment surgery, the people who have done more research over a longer period of time and with far more subjects than anyone else (indeed, the only people to have done serious long-term research on the matter) have gone "we screwed up, our initial conclusion was incorrect, gender dysphoria is really a psychological disorder".
That's not enough to cast the matter into dispute?
Nah, everyone else just keeps going based on research that is now considered incorrect by its own authors...
First sentence is true. Second sentence...
Is it really improving quality of life if the 3 groups (people wanting HRT/Surgery, people who wanted and got HRT/surgery, and people who wanted but decided against HRT/surgery) all have nearly identical rates of depression/suicide/suicide attempts?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.psyneuen-journal.com/article/S0306-4530(11)00262-9/abstract?cc=y[/url]
[url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02564.x/abstract;jsessionid=96EDB58251177FEE299C13FC167037AA.f03t01[/url]
[url]http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1024086814364[/url]
There you go, hormones and surgery improve the quality of like for trans people.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;47143119]I would rather see an honorable service member receive treatment in place of someone who served dishonorably. That's what I was trying to say.[/QUOTE]
pretty curious what you consider honorable service since in the past you've defended people who were being court martialed for going behind their superior's backs to execute wounded combatants
[QUOTE=joes33431;47140132]chelsea never 'wanted' to be a she per se, she always was a she.
the brain and the body don't match, essentially. born with the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
nobody chooses what their gender identity (social, psychological, neurological) is, you see, just the same as you don't choose to be born with certain genitals (biological, characteristic of one's biological sex, separate from gender identity). the problem is when the parts don't match; the disparity causes significant psychological distress, depression, and an abnormally high rate of suicide among those who have it.
it's called gender dysphoria, or gender identity disorder. the general consensus among physicians is that the most ethical remedy is giving them hormone replacement and (eventually, if resources and general health permit) surgery to make the body match the brain.[/QUOTE]
Ok thanks for explanation and I do kind of realize this.
But you know, he/she is whistleblower of the USA governments war crimes, you don't know really what the fuck happened behind the scenes. People responsible for those war crimes were not happy about the whole situation.
What I am hinting at that it is possible that the hormone therapy is not really what he wanted, but they forced him to do it - to make him less popular (you cannot deny big part of USA dislikes transgenders) - thus making the whole case seem less popular and funny since it was transgender who did it.
But, can we really know. Can I know? Nobody here visited him in prison, and he could have got a lawyer that was bribed by USA army. (I am not saying it is true, but it is definitely possible :tinfoil:)
I hope that what I am thinking is not true and that she may enjoy her life as much as possible.
[QUOTE=bitches;47144046]You say she deserves the treatment, but you don't like it? What? Or do you mean that you don't think she deserves it, because you want her in particular to receive refusal of treatment as a punishment?[/QUOTE]
I think his point is that it's kind of insulting how so many military personnel and veterans are refused proper medical care, but when it's the one who went out of her way to get her colleagues killed suddenly it's an outrage.
They all deserve proper medical care, but to the soldiers who didn't commit high treason it's kind of a slap in the face that they're the ones being left out in the cold.
[QUOTE=Fourier;47145139]Ok thanks for explanation and I do kind of realize this.
But you know, he/she is whistleblower of the USA governments war crimes, you don't know really what the fuck happened behind the scenes. People responsible for those war crimes were not happy about the whole situation.
What I am hinting at that it is possible that the hormone therapy is not really what he wanted, but they forced him to do it - to make him less popular (you cannot deny big part of USA dislikes transgenders) - thus making the whole case seem less popular and funny since it was transgender who did it.
But, can we really know. Can I know? Nobody here visited him in prison, and he could have got a lawyer that was bribed by USA army. (I am not saying it is true, but it is definitely possible :tinfoil:)
I hope that what I am thinking is not true and that she may enjoy her life as much as possible.[/QUOTE]
SHE. Chelsea Manning is a she, and has always been.
[editline]15th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jebus;47144129]It's good for him, but I'm of the opinion that elective medical procedures shouldn't be at anyone else's expense.[/QUOTE]
Her. It's good for HER.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;47145998]SHE. Chelsea Manning is a she, and has always been.[/QUOTE]
to be fair, fourier did say she at the end, and was only saying he under the hypothetical situation he proposed by which manning isn't trans at all and it's all a government plot
[QUOTE=bitches;47146084]to be fair, fourier did say she at the end, and was only saying he under the hypothetical situation he proposed by which manning isn't trans at all and it's all a government plot[/QUOTE]
Thanks for being someone who reads and thinks.
[QUOTE=Fourier;47146130]Thanks for being someone who reads and thinks.[/QUOTE]
That's an inane conspiracy theory, though.
Manning expressed a desire to transition as far back as 2009.
There's some misgendering here, but it seems factually correct.
[quote]Meanwhile, Manning’s concerns about his sexual identity were intensifying. In November 2009, he made contact on the web with a gender counselor back in the States. When I met the counselor, he was easygoing and upbeat for someone who’d spent hours talking to servicemen who believed they were inhabiting the wrong body. He knew what he was talking about, though. In person, his gender was difficult to discern—he’d begun his transition as a teenager. “Bradley felt he was female,” the counselor told me. “He was very solid on that.” Quickly, their conversation shifted to the practicalities: How does someone transition from male to female? “He really wanted to do surgery,” the counselor recalled. “He was mostly afraid of being alone, being ostracized or somehow weird.” [/quote]
[url]http://nymag.com/news/features/bradley-manning-2011-7/index4.html[/url]
Its sad that whenever there is a news post about trans people there is always a bunch of people who want the entire world to know they're transphobic. I dont get it.
it's sad that being a whistleblower on the massive issues inside the US military makes you into a villain.
No one was killed because of her actions but nope, she's a super villan because she had the gall, and the civic duty, to reveal to the american people what was being done to them, around them, and "for" them. But of course, we should just let the government do whatever and execute "Traitors", right? No, no thanks.
The government doesn't need help keeping it's secrets. We, the public, do need help to be told the truth.
[QUOTE=Mysterious Mr.E;47146187]Its sad that whenever there is a news post about trans people there is always a bunch of people who want the entire world to know they're transphobic. I dont get it.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad they do, it makes it easier to ignore them.
[QUOTE=Prismatex;47146170]
That's an inane conspiracy theory, though.
Manning expressed a desire to transition as far back as 2009.
There's some misgendering here, but it seems factually correct.
[url]http://nymag.com/news/features/bradley-manning-2011-7/index4.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Yes it's insane but motives are right.
But if she did wanted it then ok, I will stop with this nut theory :v:.
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