23-year-old Cancer Patient Cryopreserved after a Successful Fundraising Campaign - Polidicks

[QUOTE=oyotnas;39322454]Man that girl is pretty and smart. Its a damn shame. Lets hope she makes it back. Has anyone lived back from being preserved?[/QUOTE] The record is a dog that was brought back from five hours at 5 ºC. This was in 1984.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322524]The information is not lost if the cells don't decay. Also, asking for a miracle is not the same as having hope in the development of medicine technology.[/QUOTE] There is also damage from the freezing process that isn't well understood and nobody knows if it is even possible to retrieve that information.

[QUOTE=Valnar;39322516]The problem with your analogy is that the process of a car is well understood. Cryonics is not understood at all, it is all assumptions and wishful thinking.[/QUOTE] There's certainly a big difference. Cryonics is not sufficiently well developed, no. That doesn't make it all assumptions and wishful thinking. [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Valnar;39322553]There is also damage from the freezing process that isn't well understood and nobody knows if it is even possible to retrieve that information.[/QUOTE] You can see all the relevant information in an electron microscope. That's retrieval.

[QUOTE=Valnar;39322516]The problem with your analogy is that the process of a car is well understood. Cryonics is not understood at all, it is all assumptions and wishful thinking.[/QUOTE] You're acting as if the people behind these companies have no understanding of science. Their job is to preserve things while minimizing decay. And from what I've read, their current procedure for preservation does that job well.

[QUOTE=Valnar;39322516]The problem with your analogy is that the process of a car is well understood. Cryonics is not understood at all, it is all assumptions and wishful thinking.[/QUOTE] Its not like Cars have always been well understood We may not understand all of Cryonics now (I'm not arguing in favor of it as I think its a scam TBH), but what says we never will?

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322580]You're acting as if the people behind these companies have no understanding of science. Their job is to preserve things while minimizing decay. And from what I've read, their current procedure for preservation does that job well.[/QUOTE] Not really. Some corpses are so badly damaged due to the freezing process it's literally impossible.

[QUOTE=.FLAP.JACK.DAN.;39322457]Yeah. What would be the point of living if all the people that cared about you are dead?[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0"]yea you're right i guess there's literally no point in living besides knowing some people[/URL]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39322653]Not really. Some corpses are so badly damaged due to the freezing process it's literally impossible.[/QUOTE] Source? [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=.FLAP.JACK.DAN.;39322457]Yeah. What would be the point of living if all the people that cared about you are dead?[/QUOTE] Stop projecting

[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;39322672][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0"]yea you're right i guess there's literally no point in living besides knowing some people[/URL][/QUOTE] You may be able to enjoy like with no friends or family members, but I can't so deal with it.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322692]Source? [/QUOTE] [url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cryonics#Engineering_problems[/url]

[QUOTE=.FLAP.JACK.DAN.;39322710]You may be able to enjoy like with no friends or family members, but I can't so deal with it.[/QUOTE] i understand that also, you can make new friends fyi

[QUOTE=.FLAP.JACK.DAN.;39322710]You may be able to enjoy like with no friends or family members, but I can't so deal with it.[/QUOTE] That's fine but please don't act as if your world view is the same as everyone else's

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322736]That's fine but please don't act as if your world view is the same as everyone else's[/QUOTE] I was just point it out, god.

[QUOTE=Valnar;39322516]The problem with your analogy is that the process of a car is well understood. Cryonics is not understood at all, it is all assumptions and wishful thinking.[/QUOTE] No. It may not be fully understood, but it isn't all assumptions that's for certain.

[QUOTE=Jetsurf;39322584]Its not like Cars have always been well understood We may not understand all of Cryonics now (I'm not arguing in favor of it as I think its a scam TBH), but what says we never will?[/QUOTE] Ever since cars have been on the market they have been well understood, I don't get your first point. Nobody was selling cars before cars or the combustion engine was designed. People are selling the idea of cryonics when nobody knows how it actually works, or even if it is ever possible to revive people from cryonics.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39322714][url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cryonics#Engineering_problems[/url][/QUOTE] The engineering problems are sort of well cited, but that thing is biased as fuck. There's several theoretic solutions to the bodyless head than stitching it onto an existing body. At any rate, it all resides in the hope one has in future technologic development. If technology didn't develop ever from, let's say, today, we might as well burn every cryopreserved body/head, but since we're constantly being surprised by ingenious medical breakthroughs, we just don't know. It's just hoping that future science can basically repair what's currently considered very severe damage. [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=.FLAP.JACK.DAN.;39322751]I was just point it out, god.[/QUOTE] You said "What would be the point of living if all the people that cared about you are dead?" as if living with no friends or family means your life is completely pointless objectively. You could have said, "to me life is pointless with everyone who cares about you being dead" but you didn't.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322895]The engineering problems are sort of well cited, but that thing is biased as fuck. There's several theoretic solutions to the bodyless head than stitching it onto an existing body. At any rate, it all resides in the hope one has in future technologic development. If technology didn't develop ever from, let's say, today, we might as well burn every cryopreserved body/head, but since we're constantly being surprised by ingenious medical breakthroughs, we just don't know. It's just hoping that future science can basically repair what's currently considered very severe damage.[/QUOTE] That's practically Pascals Wagner. "Pray to god/invest into cyronics" "Stick body in ground/freezing tube" "Wait for a miracle"

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322895]The engineering problems are sort of well cited, but that thing is biased as fuck. There's several theoretic solutions to the bodyless head than stitching it onto an existing body. At any rate, it all resides in the hope one has in future technologic development. If technology didn't develop ever from, let's say, today, we might as well burn every cryopreserved body/head, but since we're constantly being surprised by ingenious medical breakthroughs, we just don't know. It's just hoping that future science can basically repair what's currently considered very severe damage.[/QUOTE] What about the organizational issues? [quote]In 1979, the Chatsworth facility (Cryonics Company of California, run by Robert Nelson) ran out of money and the frozen bodies thawed.[/quote] [url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cryonics#Organizational_problems[/url] Not only are you hoping that they develop medical procedures that aren't even in the theoretical stage (to say nothing of people that only preserve the brain or head) but you also have companies that have trouble looking in the long-term, especially as far as finances are concerned. Did you know that, amongst the oldest cryogenically frozen individuals, only one actually remains? And he's most likely cellular mush due to long-term effects of cryogenic freezing?

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39322282]The "why would anyone want to revive them" argument is retarded The whole point is that it's not just slicing heads and stuffing them into a freezer, the cells don't get any significant decay so, if a team of scientists theorizes a very plausible way to restore the blood circulation after cryoprotection, after testing on rats and whatnot, they'll want to do it for real. This way, they'll have viable subjects for the proceedure and not shit with decay[/QUOTE] Imagine a balloon full of water. Now imagine stabbing it with a railroad spike. The balloon is every cell in your body. The railroad spike is every ice crystal that forms. The corpse may look intact but on a cellular level it's just meat, with no chance of recovery short of complete duplication of the entire body- in other words, cloning, which just requires a few cells to be preserved. Cryonics is pure snake oil. Some people are so afraid of death and so desperate that they'll spend any amount of money for even a [I]chance[/I] of surviving. The fact that it's contingent upon technology developed in the future doesn't make it any more reasonable or plausible, it's a business that preys upon the desperation and vulnerability of people facing their own mortality that they'll indulge in a pure science fiction fantasy in the hopes of escape. The idea that these companies will remain in operation, continuously, without power loss, for the probably centuries (and that's optimistic) it would take to develop technology capable of such resuscitation, is wishful thinking.

that's not correct, they don't just freeze the bodies there's a veritable cocktail of chemicals they put inside you to prevent cellular breakdown

[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;39323053]that's not correct, they don't just freeze the bodies there's a veritable cocktail of chemicals they put inside you to prevent cellular breakdown[/QUOTE] Which still causes damage to your nervous system at an intrinsic level. Saying you're able to save 99% of the brain doesn't cut it; 99% is comparable to a person that suffered a massive stroke, with all the damage to memories, personality and simple motor functions that result. Could you say with confidence that the current method of cryogenic freezing offers a 100% preservation of the brain?

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;39322998]What about the organizational issues? [url]http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cryonics#Organizational_problems[/url] Not only are you hoping that they develop medical procedures that aren't even in the theoretical stage (to say nothing of people that only preserve the brain or head) but you also have companies that have trouble looking in the long-term, especially as far as finances are concerned. [/QUOTE] That's just financial incompetence. Also, they sever the head so the brain can be more effectively preserved. Think of it like this: If you have the technology that can safely restore blood circulation on a body that has no more blood in it, just preservation liquids, then you will probably have the technology to re-assemble a body or even grow one. It's all about faith in science development, in the end. And faith in the competence and professionalism of cryogenic companies, which might be asking for too much.

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;39323077]Which still causes damage to your nervous system at an intrinsic level. Saying you're able to save 99% of the brain doesn't cut it; 99% is comparable to a person that suffered a massive stroke, with all the damage to memories, personality and simple motor functions that result. Could you say with confidence that the current method of cryogenic freezing offers a 100% preservation of the brain?[/QUOTE] i'm not participating in this debate, i'm just correcting catbarf

[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;39323053]that's not correct, they don't just freeze the bodies there's a veritable cocktail of chemicals they put inside you to prevent cellular breakdown[/QUOTE] Each has its own side effects, and even still, it's not a perfect process. The human body is so fiercely dependent on water that replacing it causes damage, no matter how carefully it's done. Filling the cells with antifreeze has problems of its own. And no matter how quickly they begin the replacement of blood, it's a fine line between decay and freezing, and inevitably some of both occurs. Not much, but more than enough to have killed the subject if they were still alive. What I'm getting at is that the notion of essentially preserving a body in time is nonsense. The body is completely dead, damaged, and destroyed. It would take basically a miracle to repair, and the chances of the facility surviving until such a time is remote.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39323096]That's just financial incompetence. Also, they sever the head so the brain can be more effectively preserved. [B]Think of it like this: If you have the technology that can safely restore blood circulation on a body that has no more blood in it, just preservation liquids, then you will probably have the technology to re-assemble a body or even grow one.[/B] It's all about faith in science development, in the end. And faith in the competence and professionalism of cryogenic companies, which might be asking for too much.[/QUOTE] You are making a lot of unsafe assumptions in the bolded part.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39323096]That's just financial incompetence. Also, they sever the head so the brain can be more effectively preserved. Think of it like this: If you have the technology that can safely restore blood circulation on a body that has no more blood in it, just preservation liquids, then you will probably have the technology to re-assemble a body or even grow one. It's all about faith in science development, in the end. And faith in the competence and professionalism of cryogenic companies, which might be asking for too much.[/QUOTE] That's a lot of faith. And financial incompetence [I]that resulted in every preserved body to decompose.[/I] You can't overlook the incompetence or futures of cryo businesses when they're the ones keeping your body preserved (futures which look shaky as-is mind you, considering they're largely nonprofit.)

[QUOTE=Valnar;39323126]You are making a lot of unsafe assumptions in the bolded part.[/QUOTE] No shit? Anyone who chooses to preserve their body and thinks they're sure to be revived is an idiot. It's a gamble. Give me a crystal ball and I can tell you right now if we'll ever have the technology to revive these people. [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Canuhearme?;39323191]That's a lot of faith.[/QUOTE] True.

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;39323202] True.[/QUOTE] And then we get to yet another issue. Let's take a step back and assume we'll have the technology for re-animation in the future, and better yet, the companies somehow survived. Why would this future society re-animate you, and furthermore how would you pay? You spent money to be frozen, not for the re-animation bit, and we also have to realize in this scenario that getting an insurance policy on cryogenic freezing is practically impossible, so a policy is right out.

it makes a pretty good debt snare, just saiyan

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;39323217] Why would this future society re-animate you, and furthermore how would you pay? You spent money to be frozen, not for the re-animation bit, and we also have to realize in this scenario that getting an insurance policy on cryogenic freezing is practically impossible, so a policy is right out.[/QUOTE] They would revive you to prove their technology works. There have to be test subjects. How would they revive everyone? Who knows, maybe they'd fundraise for it or some crap. This is just speculation.