• Westboro Baptist church gets their asses fucking chased out of tornado damaged town.
    287 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;44484580]no i'm pretty sure dead kids is a lot different than that on an emotional level for the people who are there being yelled at no one has a right to not be offended but that doesn't excuse their actions as the antagonizers of that action.[/QUOTE] The bankers are being told that they are the worst type of people on the face of the earth. They are the spawn of most of the worlds problems. Their jobs and lives are worthless, they hate America, they're ruining America, they're going to burn in hell, etc. Where does this magic hate speech line get crossed?
[QUOTE=Explosions;44484616]The bankers are being told that they are the worst type of people on the face of the earth. They are the spawn of most of the worlds problems. Their jobs and lives are worthless, they hate America, they're ruining America, they're going to burn in hell, etc. Where does this magic hate speech line get crossed?[/QUOTE] presumably when someones under emotional duress. Can you say to me that you think those bankers would feel the same amount of grief as a parent who just lost their child who is in a serious state of grief different from others as defined by psychologists?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;44484645]presumably when someones under emotional duress. Can you say to me that you think those bankers would feel the same amount of grief as a parent who just lost their child who is in a serious state of grief different from others as defined by psychologists?[/QUOTE] why does that even matter? what i don't get is how wbc's protesting even counts as harassment, everything they say is so empty of any serious meaning because they say the same shit about everything.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;44484645]presumably when someones under emotional duress. Can you say to me that you think those bankers would feel the same amount of grief as a parent who just lost their child who is in a serious state of grief different from others as defined by psychologists?[/QUOTE] I don't know dude, haven't people throughout this thread been talking about the different emotional distress levels that people can take? This is the problem with trying to vainly quantify and define these thresholds. It's stupid and useless and not only shouldn't it be done, it [b]can't[/b] be done.
[QUOTE=be;44484657]why does that even matter? what i don't get is how wbc's protesting even counts as harassment, everything they say is so empty of any serious meaning because they say the same shit about everything.[/QUOTE] It doesn't bother me but I presume it would bother me or someone else who was under extreme emotional duress and didn't have their wits about them and would bother them enough to do something stupid in a moment of weakness and then have their lives ruined through legal and civil disputes because they had a moment of weakness in emotional pain. Guess what, people have emotions and it's not really possible for all people to always have control of them and I think that some people would be effected by such actions. Just feeling that that isn't an issue isn't really a solution to it. [editline]7th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Explosions;44484694]I don't know dude, haven't people throughout this thread been talking about the different emotional distress levels that people can take? This is the problem with trying to vainly quantify and define these thresholds. It's stupid and useless and not only shouldn't it be done, it [b]can't[/b] be done.[/QUOTE] then should you be arrested for yelling fire in a crowded theatre? for ruining a persons reputation through slander and libel? if all speech is okay, then surely those things are valid, and to be as viciously defended as anything else that a person can say, no?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;44484750]then should you be arrested for yelling fire in a crowded theatre? for ruining a persons reputation through slander and libel? if all speech is okay, then surely those things are valid, and to be as viciously defended as anything else that a person can say, no?[/QUOTE] I didn't say all speech was OK. Those things you mentioned all have quantifiable, measurable effects. I was talking about the "emotional harm" people are afraid of, which the "hate speech" laws around the world seem to target.
fair enough although I understand your position I still find it difficult to defend hate speech. Sure, I can't even begin to argue that you have a right to not be offended. But it doesn't feel right to me that you can be grieving over your dead child, and have no recourse to a person who's screaming your child is burning in hell. Sure, I don't believe in god, but I know that I would still be angered in that moment of weakness by that statement. Would I hurt someone? I honestly don't know, but simply the idea that in that moment of weakness I can have a serious legal case against me over what amounts to a serious level of verbal abuse during emotional duress. Yeah, it's hard to define but I disagree that there's no value in finding a balanced middle ground that doesn't take away speech but doesn't allow people to be antagonized to violence.
[QUOTE=be;44484657]why does that even matter? what i don't get is how wbc's protesting even counts as harassment, everything they say is so empty of any serious meaning because they say the same shit about everything.[/QUOTE] I think holding signs and telling mothers they're glad their friends/family members are fucking dead counts as harassment. Maybe that's just me. And every other sane person.
[QUOTE=BrownTown;44484261]I don't really see what the fuss is about, the WBC is within their first amendment rights to peacefully assemble, practice religion (if you can call it that), and speak freely. What they're doing is in line with the modern supreme court view of the first amendment as well, which is best described in Justice Thurgood Marshall's quote "[A]bove all else, the First Amendment means that government has no power to restrict expression because of its message, its ideas, its subject matter, or its content. [Citations.] To permit the continued building of our politics and culture, and to assure self-fulfillment for each individual, our people are guaranteed the right to express any thought, free from government censorship. The essence of this forbidden censorship is content control. Any restriction on expressive activity because of its content would completely undercut the 'profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open.' I don't agree with what they say, but they have a clearly defined right to say what they want and everybody else is free to respond peacefully.[/QUOTE] You might try actually reading the thread. There's been explanations for why it's a big deal to people.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;44484873]I think holding signs and telling mothers they're glad their friends/family members are fucking dead counts as harassment. Maybe that's just me. And every other sane person.[/QUOTE] Well they can just be ignored can they not? Their opinions are literally worthless, they're just some random people who blanket protest everything that they can think of, so I can't understand why people get so angry at them, just ignore them I say.
[QUOTE=be;44485082]Well they can just be ignored can they not? Their opinions are literally worthless, they're just some random people who blanket protest everything that they can think of, so I can't understand why people get so angry at them, just ignore them I say.[/QUOTE] It's really easy to ignore someone saying that a family member deserved to die while you're trying to attend said family member's funeral. You should try it, easier than breathing.
[QUOTE=be;44485082]Well they can just be ignored can they not? Their opinions are literally worthless, they're just some random people who blanket protest everything that they can think of, so I can't understand why people get so angry at them, just ignore them I say.[/QUOTE] Except it's not always easy to ignore people, especially when they deliberately try to rile others up in emotionally charged situations, and in such a case, what they sow, they reap a hundredfold because not everybody will just outright ignore the kind of nonsense they blabber whenever they stand on their soapboxes to protest, metaphorically speaking. Not undeserved, either. You and I both know they're worthless, and real assholes to boot in many cases, but expecting people to ignore them 'just because their opinions are worthless' is pushing the envelope a bit.
so guys defending WBC saying 'it's just words' are your thoughts/feelings the same when it comes to bullying?
[QUOTE=Alice3173;44485112]It's really easy to ignore someone saying that a family member deserved to die while you're trying to attend said family member's funeral. You should try it, easier than breathing.[/QUOTE] I bet you I could do it as long as they don't surround me and continually chant such things, it's easy to ignore people whose presence doesn't matter at all and whose opinions are worthless. [editline]7th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;44485196]so guys defending WBC saying 'it's just words' are your thoughts/feelings the same when it comes to bullying?[/QUOTE] If bullies were people who nobody liked at all and who could not do anything besides hold signs that say mean words then the lives of bullied kids would be a lot easier. Plus the way I see it the WBC doesn't/can't personalize their hatred all too much so if bullies were like them then bullies would/should have almost no effect on someone's feelings. It's literally just like some random guy on the street saying "fuk u i hope u die" except you know they can't hurt you.
My view on free speech in this case is this: Go right ahead and say what you want. But don't come cryin' to me when someone has enough of your shit and whacks you in the face.
Please god let this happen in my town so I can be a part of this.
[QUOTE=be;44485214]I bet you I could do it as long as they don't surround me and continually chant such things, it's easy to ignore people whose presence doesn't matter at all and whose opinions are worthless.[/QUOTE] Maybe it would somehow be easy for you but for most people it will not be remotely easy, if even possible for them, to just ignore it.
[QUOTE=be;44485214]I bet you I could do it as long as they don't surround me and continually chant such things, it's easy to ignore people whose presence doesn't matter at all and whose opinions are worthless.[/QUOTE] Pretend for a moment you weren't some badass who was immune to emotions. Pretend you were a father who had a child. A child that you raised, that you loved, that was your life. Now imagine that child died in a shooting or a tornado. Whatever. Now imagine on your child's funeral, something no parent should ever have to attend, a group of people show up and saying that he deserved to die because of some thing that didn't even relate to your child. Could you just "ignore" that? Could you just sit there and listen to them and not do anything?
[QUOTE=be;44485214]I bet you I could do it as long as they don't surround me and continually chant such things, it's easy to ignore people whose presence doesn't matter at all and whose opinions are worthless. [editline]7th April 2014[/editline] If bullies were people who nobody liked at all and who could not do anything besides hold signs that say mean words then the lives of bullied kids would be a lot easier. Plus the way I see it the WBC doesn't/can't personalize their hatred all too much so if bullies were like them then bullies would/should have almost no effect on someone's feelings. It's literally just like some random guy on the street saying "fuk u i hope u die" except you know they can't hurt you.[/QUOTE] telling someone their kids/parents/siblings/friends died because god hates them or because they're gay or something seems like pretty personalized hatred to me
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44485196]so guys defending WBC saying 'it's just words' are your thoughts/feelings the same when it comes to bullying?[/QUOTE] Bullying, where harassment or threats of violence are involved, isn't "just words", whereas a bunch of people standing around with some signs and saying a few chants, is well, the exact definition of "just words". Frankly, the use of "just words", like the WBC does, does not, cannot, and never will justify a violent response from the state or anyone else. And anything else is an extremely totalitarian viewpoint.
[QUOTE=daschnek;44485424]Bullying, where harassment or threats of violence are involved, isn't "just words", whereas a bunch of people standing around with some signs and saying a few chants, is well, the exact definition of "just words". Frankly, the use of "just words", like the WBC does, does not, cannot, and never will justify a violent response from the state or anyone else. And anything else is an extremely totalitarian viewpoint.[/QUOTE] So how exactly does it differ from bullying? Bullying doesn't necessarily imply physical interaction, it's often just constant teasing, name-calling and belittling.
[QUOTE=daschnek;44485424]Bullying, where harassment or threats of violence are involved, isn't "just words", whereas a bunch of people standing around with some signs and saying a few chants, is well, the exact definition of "just words". Frankly, the use of "just words", like the WBC does, does not, cannot, and never will justify a violent response from the state or anyone else. And anything else is an extremely totalitarian viewpoint.[/QUOTE] bullying isn't always threats of violence, and personally i would consider congregating outside a funeral to tell all the funeral-goers that their loved one died because they were gay and god hates them harassment. but yeah sure it doesn't justify a violent response and that's why the police were there stopping them. saying that, i won't shed a tear if someone beats the shit out of one of these fuckwits
[QUOTE=Explosions;44480701]Who cares about free speech right?[/QUOTE] do you just go into every thread and play devils advocate
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;44485435]So how exactly does it differ from bullying? Bullying doesn't necessarily imply physical interaction, it's often just constant teasing, name-calling and belittling.[/QUOTE] I don't have an answer to that. Quite honestly, it's hard to draw the line between just particularly fired up rhetoric and real threats and harassment. Example: was Charles Sumner's speech where he compared slavery to prostitution and Andrew Butler to a pimp just rhetoric, and just words, or was he slandering and demeaning him? If he was slandering him, does this justify Sumner being beaten with a cane until he almost died? I only think it's important that we don't have legislatures making these kinds of morally ambiguous decisions about what people say, and that we don't advocate violence against people who say some utterly condemnable and outrageous shit.
[QUOTE=Dukov Traboski;44485292]Pretend for a moment you weren't some badass who was immune to emotions. Pretend you were a father who had a child. A child that you raised, that you loved, that was your life. Now imagine that child died in a shooting or a tornado. Whatever. Now imagine on your child's funeral, something no parent should ever have to attend, a group of people show up and saying that he deserved to die because of some thing that didn't even relate to your child. Could you just "ignore" that? Could you just sit there and listen to them and not do anything?[/QUOTE] Yes their situation is extremely sad, that is obvious, but honestly I really think I could just ignore them because I don't care about what they think [B][U]AT ALL.[/U][/B] Their existence is an annoyance, but nothing they say matters at ALL, it's like taking trolling serious, you just shouldn't, it's so easy to ignore. [editline]7th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Zero-Point;44485435]So how exactly does it differ from bullying? Bullying doesn't necessarily imply physical interaction, it's often just constant teasing, name-calling and belittling.[/QUOTE] but who cares what the WBC thinks, seriously!? I mean a bully affects you because it makes you feel like you're a social outcast but WBC does not hold that power on you at all!
it's a whole lot easier to talk about how easy it is to ignore something that's not happening to you
[QUOTE=daschnek;44485474]I don't have an answer to that. Quite honestly, it's hard to draw the line between just particularly fired up rhetoric and real threats and harassment. Example: was Charles Sumner's speech where he compared slavery to prostitution and Andrew Butler to a pimp just rhetoric, and just words, or was he slandering and demeaning him? If he was slandering him, does this justify Sumner being beaten with a cane until he almost died? I only think it's important that we don't have legislatures making these kinds of morally ambiguous decisions about what people say, and that we don't advocate violence against people who say some utterly condemnable and outrageous shit.[/QUOTE] I'd hardly call them screaming "YOUR SON DIED BECAUSE GOD HATES FAGGOTS AND AMERICA SUPPORTS FAGGOTS AND FAGGOTS ARE REALLY GAY" etc. etc. "figures of speech" [editline]8th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=be;44485495]Yes their situation is extremely sad, that is obvious, but honestly I really think I could just ignore them because I don't care about what they think [B][U]AT ALL.[/U][/B] Their existence is an annoyance, but nothing they say matters at ALL, it's like taking trolling serious, you just shouldn't, it's so easy to ignore.[/quote] Likewise, it's just as easy for them to try and get their point across without being massive sandy cunts. There's a time and a place for everything, during a memorial is not the time or place to tell people "God hates you!". And so, since they're being the cunts, I find them to be entirely in the wrong. [quote]but who cares what the WBC thinks, seriously!? I mean a bully affects you because it makes you feel like you're a social outcast but WBC does not hold that power on you at all![/QUOTE] It's not even so much what they say, it's WHEN they say it. They show absolutely NO respect for families that are grieving the loss of a loved one/loved ones. If they did their stupid picketing anywhere but funerals or memorial services, most people would see them as a bunch of angry loonies, but since they do it in places where it would cause the most emotional distress just because they can, it justifies a fair bit of ire being sent their direction.
[QUOTE=be;44485495]Yes their situation is extremely sad, that is obvious, but honestly I really think I could just ignore them because I don't care about what they think [B][U]AT ALL.[/U][/B] Their existence is an annoyance, but nothing they say matters at ALL, it's like taking trolling serious, you just shouldn't, it's so easy to ignore. [editline]7th April 2014[/editline] but who cares what the WBC thinks, seriously!? I mean a bully affects you because it makes you feel like you're a social outcast but WBC does not hold that power on you at all![/QUOTE] yeah, please stop lacking empathy when approaching people with dead kids. it shows you have no idea what it's like when you think you could just "brush it off".
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;44485503]I'd hardly call them screaming "YOUR SON DIED BECAUSE GOD HATES FAGGOTS AND AMERICA SUPPORTS FAGGOTS AND FAGGOTS ARE REALLY GAY" etc. etc. "figures of speech"[/QUOTE] Except the "figures of speech" were a huge offense to the moral sensibilities of those in the antebellum American South, and southerners cheered for the beating of Sumner despite the fact that he had a horrible act of violence committed towards him over a speech. And to the same, "GOD HATES FAGS" is such a super terrible thing that needs to be dealt with simply because it violates your own moral sensibilities. You're acting much like the slaveholding south- freedom of speech when it agrees with your ideals, and the advocacy of violence when it doesn't. Edit: Let's face it, everyone in this thread who's hating on the WBC is doing it because they simply disagree (and rightfully so) with what they have to say, and to a violent extent, and then try to justify their broken arguments for totalitarian standards about speech with a short line from a 100 year old american court case that got overturned 45 years ago.
[QUOTE=Explosions;44480701]Who cares about free speech right?[/QUOTE] Would you yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater?
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