• Donald Trump elected President of the United States - Deal with it, lmao
    1,893 replies, posted
[QUOTE=wystan;51342174]From what it seems that in most of these situations the fetus is doomed regardless, so yes the logical move is to abort in case there is a chance to safe a least one life and it isn't a total loss. Do they ever ask mothers if they're willing to deliver the baby at the risk of their own life? That sounds like some bullshit in a movie but I'd like to know.[/QUOTE] They try to outline chances and in most events they try to save both mother and child, but when it comes to a choice they usually try to save the mother's life generally
[QUOTE=Bugga12;51342154]It's not a shock hypothetical, it's an actual thing that happens an astounding number of times. Come on.[/QUOTE] There are plenty of other arguments that could and should be used. Resorting to shock is fucking lazy and does a disservice to actual efforts to bridge the gap on matters concerning reproductive rights. Federal or state interference between doctors and patients is far, far more compelling for a lot of these people. Actually educating people about human development is also important. Don't be fucking lazy and try to moralize if you don't actually know the subject matter involved.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51342182]They try to outline chances and in most events they try to save both mother and child, but when it comes to a choice they usually try to save the mother's life generally[/QUOTE] So what I'm gathering here is that usually the odds are stacked against the fetus when it comes to the complications listed, and from what I read that often the baby wouldn't live regardless. Is that accurate?
And, of course, setting aside the medical necessity of abortions for many cases, there is the simple fact that a woman should have the ability to decide when she is ready to bring a life into the world, and to properly for her child as a mother. Telling women that must be forced to submit to the tyranny of biology should they unexpectedly or accidentally become pregnant is just fucking ridiculous. A brighter tomorrow is not one with more babies, it's one with better parents. Allowing people to choose, on their own terms, when and how they bring life into the world is nothing but a good thing -- not only on an individual level, but for society as a whole.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;51342094]I love how every time I give a cohesive argument for why a fetus life doesn't matter prolifers ignore it. Nobody cares about human life on its own. A brain-dead person is as much a human life as a fetus. They are more complex than a fetus, they often have parts of the brain still functional, they have functioning organs, I'd argue that they're closer to a fully developed living human than a fetus. But we'll kill them without qualms. You know why that is? Because tissue that is technically living and technically human can still lack the things we actually value. Complex Intelligence, emotions, consciousness, the human experience. The fetus doesn't have any of it. So no, killing a fetus is not murder, because we don't value human lives, we value the lives of PEOPLE, and a fetus is not a person by any meaningful definition of the term.[/QUOTE] Still waiting on this, are you just going to ignore it or what?
[QUOTE=wystan;51342174]From what it seems that in most of these situations the fetus is doomed regardless, so yes the logical move is to abort in case there is a chance to safe a least one life and it isn't a total loss. Do they ever ask mothers if they're willing to deliver the baby at the risk of their own life? That sounds like some bullshit in a movie but I'd like to know.[/QUOTE] Do you not find it fucked up how you have opinions set in stone about things you're clearly ignorant about?
[QUOTE=Domokun;51342168]Is there a reason why he's doing this? LGBT people having rights doesn't seem harmful. MAGA doesn't start with removing rights from people in my opinion.[/QUOTE] Considering you live in the US I'd expect you to understand that we have a lot of evangelicals and assorted religious that dont think LGBT people should even be allowed to live Quoting Isak- [QUOTE]29% of self-identifying conservatives support gay marriage compared to 78% of liberals, according to Pew as of 2016. 71% of their voter base doesn't want it. They'll be re-elected. It's a critical part of the party platform. It's written into their 2016 party platform. Here's a direct quote from the 2016 platform: "In Obergefell, five unelected lawyers robbed 330 million Americans of their legitimate constitutional authority to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman."[/QUOTE] The Republican party profits off of the mass hate conservatives have for LGBT people
[QUOTE=wystan;51342174]From what it seems that in most of these situations the fetus is doomed regardless, so yes the logical move is to abort in case there is a chance to safe a least one life and it isn't a total loss. Do they ever ask mothers if they're willing to deliver the baby at the risk of their own life? That sounds like some bullshit in a movie but I'd like to know.[/QUOTE] Still waiting for your input on this bud. I'm genuinely curious to see how you worm yourself out of this if you stop ignoring the question. [QUOTE=Bugga12;51342105]I want to see your answer to this. You can't just stand by something and then ignore the good questions people ask you. What if she's raped and gets pregnant from it? [sp]Or was she just asking for it? According to your vision of shit[/sp][/QUOTE]
But hey, guys, at least Trump will "make America great again!" I mean, there's so many [I]"great"[/I] periods of America to look back on! Like, remember that time when treating other human beings like property because their skin was different? That was petty "great". Or how about the time the "American people" committed mass genocide against an established, indigenous people and wiped out several species of fauna and flora? That was pretty "great", too. Can't forget the time when America dropped a couple of nuclear warheads on two civilian cities, killing literal millions of noncombatants, injuring millions more and literally poisoning the very land itself for years following. That sure was "great", too. Can't forget the time America almost started a thermonuclear war with Russia on multiple occasions and manufactured enough weapons of mass destruction to literally destroy not just themselves, but every single populated capital in the world. I mean, they don't come more "great" than that. Or perhaps we're thinking of the time America invaded a once-allied country and killed millions of people to try and get more oil, all in the name of fighting against a terrorist organisation that America itself funded a few decades prior. "Great" stuff there. Some real highlights to go back to, I think. A real collage of "Great" American moments.
Let's be honest, we can't really judge what Trump is going to be like (despite his gross behaviour, morals and personality) until we see what he's like ACTUALLY as the President of the United States rather than a candidate, because at the end of the day, a campaign is a campaign - doesn't match up to the real deal, and doesn't guarantee anything that they said during campaign to be true. We all know how much bollocks politicians spout. Though the news is some what devastating, and very concerning, as Hillary Clinton stated; we must keep an open mind.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342195]So what I'm gathering here is that usually the odds are stacked against the fetus when it comes to the complications listed, and from what I read that often the baby wouldn't live regardless. Is that accurate?[/QUOTE] Pretty much, whenever dealing with a fetus that survives these events you have to be very careful to watch their continued development, after placing them in a neonatal care unit or NICU depending on their status. Preterm babies have issues with cerebral palsy, hearing and sight problems, developmental delays, etc. and so you have to hope that doesn't take place as a result regardless either.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51342201]Considering you live in the US I'd expect you to understand that we have a lot of evangelicals and assorted religious that dont think LGBT people should even be allowed to live Quoting Isak- The Republican party profits off of the mass hate conservatives have for LGBT people[/QUOTE] I just still don't get where the hate comes from. Like, why even bother? How in the hell is what I do with my life any of your business and why do other people get the goddamn authority to tell me I can't do something that defines part of who I am? Its literally just the republican party going for an easy topic to get votes and power, as far as I am concerned. Its the American version of Europe's "stop the gypsies!"
[QUOTE=hippowombat;51342180]I'm so fucking irritated. I post today about how worried I am for the future and suddenly a plethora of people are yelling at everyone to chill out about the results, totally dismissing anyone's concerns, insisting shit's not gonna change. Like literally 4 of my Facebook friends just ganged up on my status to mock my concerns and condescendingly tell me that everything is going to be business as usual and that I'm overreacting. Fuck me for having the same concerns they all had yesterday, today, I guess.[/QUOTE] If theres anything you should have learned from this election is that this country is completely bankrupt of empathy and responsibility
[QUOTE=wystan;51342195]So what I'm gathering here is that usually the odds are stacked against the fetus when it comes to the complications listed, and from what I read that often the baby wouldn't live regardless. Is that accurate?[/QUOTE] This is probably something you should've researched yourself.
[QUOTE=Ona;51342204]But hey, guys, at least Trump will "make America great again!" I mean, there's so many [I]"great"[/I] periods of America to look back on! Like, remember that time when treating other human beings like property because their skin was different? That was petty "great". Or how about the time the "American people" committed mass genocide against an established, indigenous people and wiped out several species of fauna and flora? That was pretty "great", too. Can't forget the time when America dropped a couple of nuclear warheads on two civilian cities, killing literal millions of noncombatants, injuring millions more and literally poisoning the very land itself for years following. That sure was "great", too. Can't forget the time America almost started a thermonuclear war with Russia on multiple occasions and manufactured enough weapons of mass destruction to literally destroy not just themselves, but every single populated capital in the world. I mean, they don't come more "great" than that. Or perhaps we're thinking of the time America invaded a once-allied country and killed millions of people to try and get more oil, all in the name of fighting against a terrorist organisation that America itself funded a few decades prior. "Great" stuff there. Some real highlights to go back to, I think. A real collage of "Great" American moments.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's honestly the biggest thing that I don't even get about Trump's ideas. "Make America great again" kinda says precisely jack shit. When was it great according to him and when did it stop being great?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342200]Do you not find it fucked up how you have opinions set in stone about things you're clearly ignorant about?[/QUOTE] Yea because everyone is expected to know about the gamut of pregnancy complications. So when I try to actually learn something you insult me? Way to contribute to the discussion pal
[QUOTE=Bucketboy;51342133]I read somewhere that Republicans don't even like Trump?[/QUOTE] They don't, but do you really think they're going to oppose him out of spite when he's promising to undo the Affordable Care Act, appoint conservative SC justices to fight women's healthcare and gay rights, and generally appeal to their religious zeal and passion projects? Trump is a fuckin' clown, and I doubt he will ever have the respect of the GOP, but you can be sure they'll utilize him when it comes to accomplishing their party platform.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51342209]Pretty much, whenever dealing with a fetus that survives these events you have to be very careful to watch their continued development, after placing them in a neonatal care unit or NICU depending on their status. Preterm babies have issues with cerebral palsy, hearing and sight problems, developmental delays, etc. and so you have to hope that doesn't take place as a result regardless either.[/QUOTE] Thanks for replying in a civil manner and answering my questions.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342220]Yea because everyone is expected to know about the gamut of pregnancy complications. So when I try to actually learn something you insult me? Way to contribute to the discussion pal[/QUOTE] Yes, you are expected to know enough about it so you can actually have an informed opinion.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342220]Yea because everyone is expected to know about the gamut of pregnancy complications. So when I try to actually learn something you insult me? Way to contribute to the discussion pal[/QUOTE] No you are asking questions in such a loaded manner I genuinely question it. You're for the torture of people, against contraception, sex education, abortion and the like with stern, solid stances you won't compromise over in the past but here you're displaying how much you don't know WHILE arguing for your opinions to be THE opinions
[QUOTE=Domokun;51342168]Is there a reason why he's doing this? LGBT people having rights doesn't seem harmful. MAGA doesn't start with removing rights from people in my opinion.[/QUOTE] Because ew gay people amirite lads!????????????
[QUOTE=paindoc;51342213]I just still don't get where the hate comes from. Like, why even bother? How in the hell is what I do with my life any of your business and why do other people get the goddamn authority to tell me I can't do something that defines part of who I am? Its literally just the republican party going for an easy topic to get votes and power, as far as I am concerned. Its the American version of Europe's "stop the gypsies!"[/QUOTE] This is what happens when a majority of people in this country build their lives and moral values around a piece of scripture that despises us
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51342209]Pretty much, whenever dealing with a fetus that survives these events you have to be very careful to watch their continued development, after placing them in a neonatal care unit or NICU depending on their status. Preterm babies have issues with cerebral palsy, hearing and sight problems, developmental delays, etc. and so you have to hope that doesn't take place as a result regardless either.[/QUOTE] And as the birth age of a fetus decreases, the risks and side effects increase: from the stuff you mentioned to death from a relatively minor infection ravaging the neonates undeveloped immune system. The NICU is a place where lots of neonates balance in between life and death. I dunno how my mother works in that unit: having any babies die under my watch would be way too sad for me to handle but she does it somehow. Pro-life folks tend to vastly oversimplify the argument, and it barely holds together then. Once you dig in though, Pro-life falls right apart. Pro-choice can be simplified and still work, but even if you dive into the details (like we have been) it still holds up.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342227]Thanks for replying in a civil manner and answering my questions.[/QUOTE] Check out [URL="http://webtv.un.org/watch/what-if-using-data-to-advance-sexual-and-reproductive-health-and-rights-csw59-side-event/4119853661001#full-text"]this debate[/URL] if you've got the time. The [URL="https://www.guttmacher.org"]Guttmacher[/URL] is [I]the[/I] place to go for information about abortion and reproductive issues.
You've already voted so you didn't take the time to learn when it mattered. You don't get to act like I'm the bad guy for pointing that out no matter how much you'd like to blame me
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342237]No you are asking questions in such a loaded manner I genuinely question it. You're for the torture of people, against contraception, sex education, abortion and the like with stern, solid stances you won't compromise over in the past but here you're displaying how much you don't know WHILE arguing for your opinions to be THE opinions[/QUOTE] Fucking knew a torture quip was coming. I'm not against contraception or sex education either.
[QUOTE=paindoc;51342213]I just still don't get where the hate comes from. Like, why even bother? How in the hell is what I do with my life any of your business and why do other people get the goddamn authority to tell me I can't do something that defines part of who I am? Its literally just the republican party going for an easy topic to get votes and power, as far as I am concerned. Its the American version of Europe's "stop the gypsies!"[/QUOTE] Because "religious liberty and freedom" apparently actually means "the freedom to enforce christian values on everyone and if they don't want to follow them then fuck them they can die and go to hell for all I care".
[QUOTE=Domokun;51342168]Is there a reason why he's doing this? LGBT people having rights doesn't seem harmful. MAGA doesn't start with removing rights from people in my opinion.[/QUOTE] He believes in an imaginary friend in the sky who told him the gays shouldn't have any rights because they are an unnatural blight on society and has made no secret about being anti-LGBT with the laws he's had passed in his home state.
[QUOTE=simkas;51342219]Yeah that's honestly the biggest thing that I don't even get about Trump's ideas. "Make America great again" kinda says precisely jack shit. When was it great according to him and when did it stop being great?[/QUOTE] I don't think most people on this forum who voted for him actually care about his policies or what he's actually going to do. I'm starting to think, from the lack of actual good argument and ignorance of some very pressing questions that their feels were hurt by people on the Internet and they voted trump in a self-validating tantrum.
People tend to forget that pro-choice does not mean "pro-abortion under all circumstances". Of course it doesn't. I'm not really a fan of abortion unless it's necessary for the benefit of the mother and the child, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna fight for a woman's right to choose that for herself and for her future.
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