• Donald Trump elected President of the United States - Deal with it, lmao
    1,893 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51342313]I don't get what you mean. Do you mean you spout controversial views just to start a discussion?[/QUOTE] Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342247]Fucking knew a torture quip was coming. I'm not against contraception or sex education either.[/QUOTE] any torture quips directed at you are completely and unabashedly justified you don't get away with ignoring facts and proper sources for a dozen pages then complaining about how people don't want to have a civil discussion with you
[QUOTE=wystan;51342322]Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.[/QUOTE] Spouting out uneducated opinions on shit you know nothing about and don't even care much about just to create arguments isn't a "discussion".
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342315]So if a non gun owner wrote legislation to ban guns you're good with that? Must be if you're okay with white men making the rules for literally everyone else[/QUOTE] old, rich, straight, christian, white men* I'm a white man myself, but being young, unemployed, agnostic, disabled and LGBT, I'm pretty sure if I was in America right now I literally wouldn't be alive anymore.
Fucking Christ. :suicide: [IMG]https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14925581_1745986462393945_222081139309182795_n.jpg?oh=4a82bc1dd99d78face52680fbfd59acd&oe=58C72641[/IMG] [IMG]https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14962761_1745988172393774_2356367211652942764_n.jpg?oh=942b16cc293af5648ab8417bdf120b9c&oe=58C6A576[/IMG] [IMG]https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14705777_1746002939058964_278656172676290098_n.jpg?oh=b271bf3eb06f13a41fcdb75f63edefdc&oe=58CC8238[/IMG]
[QUOTE=wystan;51342322]Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.[/QUOTE] I mean, yes, it would be boring if we all agreed, and yes, a forum is meant for a discussion, but that still doesn't explain WHY you had a strong stance on something you say you don't care a lot about. It doesn't add up to me. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and whatever, but I would hope and expect those opinions would be based on you doing your research and well, caring about the issue at hand.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342322]Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.[/QUOTE] Discussion is cool and all until there are actual people who are seriously affected by legislation. It's not just "discussion" to some people, dude. It's our livelihood. It's our well being. It's our rights as citizens and as people that are actively being called into question. It's the fact that half of America doesn't seem to give an actual shit about any of that. It's not just discussion to me.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51342321]Why wouldn't it be? It's indicative of your mindset. You believed fully that torture was for the greater good, because you reasoned that cruelty to America's enemies was worth it if it produced intelligence that could save American lives. You were surprised, however, when it was revealed that torture [B]doesn't[/B] produce actionable intelligence. You were ignorant about that, and even after having it indisputably proven to you, you acted as if this revelation were some kind of conspiracy -- that the CIA itself was lying about the effectivity of its own torture programs for browny points. By the time you finally, fully admitted that torture was pointless, you [I]still chose to support it[/I] based on nothing more than the gut feeling that people who are tortured [U]deserve[/U] to be tortured. Your opinion, originally rooted in misguided ignorance, didn't shift to something more enlightened and informed once you had discovered your mistake. Instead, you doubled down on your beliefs, pushed back against reason, and contradicted your own initial arguments that torture was only acceptable because it ultimately saved lives. You regressed into an even more extreme, willfully ignorant position. What once was an understandable, if misguided argument in favor of a "necessarily cruel" practice devolved into an argument in support of cruelty for cruelty's sake. So, forgive me if I'm a bit confused as to why you're now standing by the "sanctity of human life."[/QUOTE] Can I reexplain my views on torture without fear of getting banned for being off topic? I think you have my views slightly off and I'd like to clarify.
[QUOTE=FreyasFighter;51342335]Fucking Christ. :suicide: [IMG]https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14925581_1745986462393945_222081139309182795_n.jpg?oh=4a82bc1dd99d78face52680fbfd59acd&oe=58C72641[/IMG] [IMG]https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14962761_1745988172393774_2356367211652942764_n.jpg?oh=942b16cc293af5648ab8417bdf120b9c&oe=58C6A576[/IMG] [IMG]https://scontent.flhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14705777_1746002939058964_278656172676290098_n.jpg?oh=b271bf3eb06f13a41fcdb75f63edefdc&oe=58CC8238[/IMG][/QUOTE] at least one of these is a parody account, and the second one looks like either a parody account or someone making a stupid joke at Trump's expense
[QUOTE=wystan;51342322]Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.[/QUOTE] Listen the reason you hold an opposing viewpoint should be a justifiable one instead of falling back on memes and misinformation - there's a reason why I prefer to debate with folks who know what they're talking about even when it comes to controversial shit because they can defend their position - I'm not the best at debating myself but I know enough to realize when I'm wrong and I've admitted it myself on a number of occasions. Holding an opposing viewpoint for the sake of opposition has never been a good idea regardless of the circumstances if you don't understand why you're holding this viewpoint in the first place.
im in the uk. bye americans. nice knowing you.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342322]Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.[/QUOTE] This. This right here is what wystand, Tudd, and RIPBILLYMAYS actually think. This sums up what they see as "antagonism" and "dogpiling" and "aggression". It's simply the fact that people disagree with them when they post their opinions.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342343]Can I reexplain my views on torture without fear of getting banned for being off topic? I think you have my views slightly off and I'd like to clarify.[/QUOTE] if your explanation doesn't begin with you recognizing your willful ignorance in the past, there really is no point to it
[QUOTE=wystan;51342343]Can I reexplain my views on torture without fear of getting banned for being off topic? I think you have my views slightly off and I'd like to clarify.[/QUOTE] Considering that torture and warcrimes are official policies of the Trump administration, it's hardly off topic. By all means.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342322]Would be awfully boring if we were all in agreement all the time. It seems that I hold a lot of views that y'all disagree with, but isn't the point of a forum to be for discussion.[/QUOTE] Oh, yes, everybody getting along and not going for eachother's throats all the time? How horrible that would be. It must be terrible, I mean it's so bad we've never even [I]tried[/I] it as a species. Funny that, huh. Fuck it, I'm going to bed. I need to be up in 3 hours and the more I read this, the more I realise that we are all squabbling, hairless ape monsters on a rock hurtling through the vast expanses of space while we slowly destroy our own planet and attack eachother for literally no reason. How the fuck we've managed to get this far already, I can only speculate. I'm gonna go read about wizards.
Wystan, do you care that people will be harmed by many of the policies you've supported without being informed of m?
[QUOTE=Xubs;51342357]America has decided to stand over the minority of this country and exclaim as loudly as they can to them that their voices do not matter. America is not a country for LGBT or racial and religious minorities in 2016. When people voted for Trump, that was their statement to their fellow countrymen. I'm surprised people aren't even madder about it. So many people are dismissing these peoples' opinions as "scaremongering" but they have no real actual rebuttal to what these minorities are saying about Trump because the evidence is on their side.[/QUOTE] I would be more angry than I am if I wasn't so sure it might get me kicked out of my house lol. Idk I feel like there's not a whole lot I can do about it now besides trying to remain actively involved in politics under a pseudo-position that I have to present to everyone that I've known for years. Welcome to Texas I love it here.............
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342363]Wystan, do you care that people will be harmed by many of the policies you've supported without being informed of m?[/QUOTE] allow me to put the word he's desperately looking for in his mouth: no
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51342354]Considering that torture is an official policy of the Trump administration, it's hardly off topic. By all means.[/QUOTE] Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] If torturing YOUR family members was the prerogative of the government, would you ever under any reason support that government or forgive them down the line?
TBH I don't think Trump will last long at the presidency He will probably do something stupid and get the boot (Although I've been told that Pence would step in which could be worse)
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] the problem with this is that information extracted by torture is notoriously unreliable, which you should know. people confessed to being witches back in the day to make the suffering end. the same applies here
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51342316]Read a quote yesterday that sums up my experiences trying to engage with Trump supporters on FP On the one hand I don't see how I'm going to convince someone Trump is bad for x policy when subject matter experts in the tens or hundreds have made the same argument and are far more qualified than I. On the other hand, I can't let sleeping dogs lie and I hate it when people are blatantly attempting to misinform.[/QUOTE] It's incredibly frustrating. There's no way around that. Just because someone doesn't value evidence now doesn't mean they won't in the future. I've been fortunate in that I've been forced to teach fairly complex topics to all sorts of people over the years, and the best moments for me have always been when you manage to find something that actually sticks with someone. Sometimes shit just clicks and no one knows why. Beating your head into a wall using the same approach over and over again doesn't help anyone. I'm not condemning people for losing their tempers or using what might have been tried and true methods in the past. I'm trying to encourage different approaches because what we've been doing doesn't seem to be working. Last I checked a massive chunk of young women are pro-choice in the United States. Fucking Trump and the Republicans won yesterday. If we've got good information, we need to share it.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] But that means you don't value every human life equally. Information gleamed from torture is not necessarily accurate - the person being tortured is going to say ANYTHING to stop the torture. It's why you can't use torture in court, because the confessor is not of sound mind when giving that information. It is a very cruel and unusual thing to inflict on a person and a lot of the time it doesn't work. I find it morally reprehensible.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] i stand by my statement this post doesn't recognize what you've been told time and time again: torture is ineffective, inhumane, and can actually produce false information. i was hoping for a slight change here but you still have zero credibility
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342385]If torturing YOUR family members was the prerogative of the government, would you ever under any reason support that government or forgive them down the line?[/QUOTE] I don't quite understand the point of this hypothetical, but if my family turned out to be anti-American sleeper cell traitors or something and confirmed planning another 9/11, yes.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342403]I don't quite understand the point of this hypothetical, but if my family turned out to be anti-American sleeper cell traitors or something and confirmed planning another 9/11, yes.[/QUOTE] How about when the chances that your family has been wrongly identified as terrorists is greater than the chances that torture will produce actionable intelligence?
[QUOTE=wystan;51342403]I don't quite understand the point of this hypothetical, but if my family turned out to be anti-American sleeper cell traitors or something and confirmed planning another 9/11, yes.[/QUOTE] But what if they're not? What if they're actually innocent. Then you've tortured innocent people and might have gotten complete false information from them because they just tried to end the pain.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] You disgust me to my very core. The fact that Trump seems to have similiar stance on torture and yet people voted for him scares me deeply.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51342398][b]But that means you don't value every human life equally. [/b]Information gleamed from torture is not necessarily accurate - the person being tortured is going to say ANYTHING to stop the torture. It's why you can't use torture in court, because the confessor is not of sound mind when giving that information. It is a very cruel and unusual thing to inflict on a person and a lot of the time it doesn't work. I find it morally reprehensible.[/QUOTE] I won't deny this. [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51342400]i stand by my statement this post doesn't recognize what you've been told time and time again: torture is ineffective, inhumane, and can actually produce false information. i was hoping for a slight change here but you still have zero credibility[/QUOTE] But can y'all answer the moral aspect of what I said? Why shouldn't we try, if no other method was effective.
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