• Donald Trump elected President of the United States - Deal with it, lmao
    1,893 replies, posted
[QUOTE=wystan;51342403]I don't quite understand the point of this hypothetical, but if my family turned out to be anti-American sleeper cell traitors or something and confirmed planning another 9/11, yes.[/QUOTE] Imagine you had the misfortune of being born in the Middle East. Imagine your older brother is tortured for no reason(this DOES happen) by the US Government. What limit would you stop at to get payback?
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] And what if that person doesn't actually have that information and doesn't yield simply because they have nothing to tell? What if that person actually doesn't know that information and simply gives up and tells you something that might not even be true just so the torture would stop? There's no way to know whether the information that came out of torture is even true or accurate.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342420]Imagine you had the misfortune of being born in the Middle East. Imagine your older brother is tortured for no reason(this DOES happen) by the US Government. What limit would you stop at to get payback?[/QUOTE] I've said before those mishaps and mistakes are terrible and inexcusable, torturing innocent people. Torturing should be reserved for confirmed belligerents.
[QUOTE=simkas;51342424]And what if that person doesn't actually have that information and doesn't yield simply because they have nothing to tell? What if that person actually doesn't know that information and simply gives up and tells you something that might not even be true just so the torture would stop? There's no way to know whether the information that came out of torture is even true or accurate.[/QUOTE] You might get true information so that's justification enough for wystan's ilk.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342430]I've said before those mishaps and mistakes are terrible and inexcusable, torturing innocent people. Torturing should be reserved for confirmed belligerents.[/QUOTE] Mistakes happen. If torture is the policy it's going to be used. Trump isn't putting torture at the bottom of his list It's at the top
[QUOTE=simkas;51342424]And what if that person doesn't actually have that information and doesn't yield simply because they have nothing to tell? What if that person actually doesn't know that information and simply gives up and tells you something that might not even be true just so the torture would stop? There's no way to know whether the information that came out of torture is even true or accurate.[/QUOTE] Well then nothing was learned at they stay a POW I guess. But there is no reason not to try.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342430]I've said before those mishaps and mistakes are terrible and inexcusable, torturing innocent people. Torturing should be reserved for confirmed belligerents.[/QUOTE] There's no such thing as "confirmed belligerents". It is completely impossible to know whether the person you're torturing even has the information you're asking for.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342373]Thanks. I stand by torture because I think it's morally wrong to not try literally all possible options to extract information to potentially save innocent lives from those who wish to harm us. It shouldn't be the first option, nor the second, or third. But if they don't yield, I see nothing wrong with trying it, why value the feelings of the people who wish to kill us over our fellow citizens? I value human life, I'm not a sadist, but I'd take all steps against a hostile entity to potentially save lives. If one could prevent another 9/11 but they had to waterboard someone, I see no reason why they shouldn't.[/QUOTE] Okay, nevermind, I retract my previous statement regarding my appreciation of your attempt to become less ignorant on the subject, because you clearly are not making any legitimate effort towards a deeper understanding of the issues. You have [I]already admitted[/I] that you understand [B]as a well documented fact[/B] that torture [U]does not produce actionable intelligence.[/U] It is cruelty for cruelty's sake, and [I]nothing more.[/I] This is a discussion that we have gone through dozens of times. You've seen the evidence, you've read the reports, you've [I]personally admitted that you were wrong on this.[/I] And now, despite all of that, you've reverted back to your original, ignorant perspective. You are the worst kind of person, Wystan. You are the core of what is wrong and backwards and foolish about humanity. You are not only ignorant, you are [B]willfully[/B] ignorant. You are actively, purposefully foolish. Please, for the love of god, just [I]use a basic modicum of reason.[/I] I don't even need you to accept that torture is wrong, I'd just be happy to see you form an opinion on torture that isn't based on intentional delusion!
Why arent you in favor of universeal free healthcare if life is so important? its a proven way to save the most amount of life possible and save costs in the long run through preventative care. As said in this thread the reason most pro-lifers seem to have the stance they do is because of the religion they were born with rather than any consistent or rational world view.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342419]I won't deny this.[/QUOTE] Dude.....
[QUOTE=wystan;51342439]Well then nothing was learned at they stay a POW I guess. But there is no reason not to try.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that it's okay to torture someone just for the hell of it?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51342441]Okay, nevermind, I retract my previous statement regarding my appreciation of your attempt to become less ignorant on the subject, because you clearly are not making any legitimate effort towards a deeper understanding of the issues. You have [I]already admitted[/I] that you understand [B]as an indisputable fact[/B] that torture [U]does not produce actionable intelligence.[/U] It is cruelty for cruelty's sake, and [I]nothing more.[/I] This is a discussion that we have gone through dozens of times. You've seen the evidence, you've read the reports, you've [I]personally admitted that you were wrong on this.[/I] And now, despite all of that, you've reverted back to your original, ignorant perspective. You are the worst kind of person, Wystan. You are the core of what is wrong and backwards and foolish about humanity. You are not only ignorant, you are [B]willfully[/B] ignorant. You are actively, purposefully foolish. Please, for the love of god, just [I]use a basic modicum of reason.[/I] I don't even need you to accept that torture is wrong, I'd just be happy to see you form an opinion on torture that isn't based on intentional delusion![/QUOTE] Can you explain to me what I said isn't reasonable? Why wouldn't you take every necessary step to try and save innocent people?
[QUOTE=wystan;51342439]Well then nothing was learned at they stay a POW I guess. But there is no reason not to try.[/QUOTE] Except that it is unethical and has been proven to provide no useful information. That's kind of a good reason not to mangle any innocent people you suspect of lying.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342419]But can y'all answer the moral aspect of what I said? Why shouldn't we try, if no other method was effective.[/QUOTE] because torture won't be effective either this has been said by people who have worked with torture. people who have more knowledge of the field, in both practice and theory, than you, or any of us, will ever have so, if this is about the moral aspect of it, what's 'moral' about using an inhumane method that has pushed people [I]into[/I] terrorism, when it's proven to not do any better at gathering information than any other method?
[QUOTE=wystan;51342439]Well then nothing was learned at they stay a POW I guess. But there is no reason not to try.[/QUOTE] The reason not to try is that there are other belligerents and sources of information that are probably higher priorities, and torturing someone provides a moral justification for your enemies to continue fighting
[QUOTE=wystan;51342458]Can you explain to me what I said isn't reasonable? Why wouldn't you take every necessary step to try and save innocent people?[/QUOTE] because in the process you may hurt innocent people! and you will not save innocent people using unactionable information!
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51342460]because torture won't be effective either this has been said by people who have worked with torture. people who have more knowledge of the field, in both practice and theory, than you, or any of us, will ever have so, if this is about the moral aspect of it, what's 'moral' about using an inhumane method that has pushed people [I]into[/I] terrorism, when it's proven to not do any better at gathering information than any other method?[/QUOTE] Well the situation implies they are already terrorists, these are the confirmed bad people.
[QUOTE=Fox Powers;51342388]TBH I don't think Trump will last long at the presidency He will probably do something stupid and get the boot (Although I've been told that Pence would step in which could be worse)[/QUOTE] pence is almost a bulletproof vest for trump, everyone will be afraid to kick him out because pence will be much, much worse
[QUOTE=wystan;51342458]Can you explain to me what I said isn't reasonable? Why wouldn't you take every necessary step to try and save innocent people?[/QUOTE] Good people doing bad things wont stop other bad people from doing bad things scratch that, Good people doing bad things to other good or neutral people will make them into the bad people who'll do more bad things is this simplistic enough
[QUOTE=wystan;51342458]Can you explain to me what I said isn't reasonable? Why wouldn't you take every necessary step to try and save innocent people?[/QUOTE] Because your method does nothing effective ever and can't by definition
[QUOTE=wystan;51342439]Well then nothing was learned at they stay a POW I guess. But there is no reason not to try.[/QUOTE] yes there's plenty of reasons not to try. i've told you those reasons, i've sourced you on those reasons last time you tried telling me of reasons to support it, you mistakenly sourced a website that was speaking out AGAINST torture you're either obliviousness taken human form or in full denial mode
[QUOTE=wystan;51342469]Well the situation implies they are already terrorists, these are the confirmed bad people.[/QUOTE] But we don't live in a perfect world.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342469]Well the situation implies they are already terrorists, these are the confirmed bad people.[/QUOTE] No they're not. Military intelligence can be wrong
So what's going to be the next Presidential line of succession, after Trump and Pence?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51342475]Because your method does nothing effective ever and can't by definition[/QUOTE] I think it's quite a stretch to say torture has never worked ever.
[QUOTE=wystan;51342482]I think it's quite a stretch to say torture has never worked ever.[/QUOTE] Anyone tortured will tell you anything to get you to stop including lying and creating false information. It is a fact that happens more often than actionable intelligence [editline]9th November 2016[/editline] You need to stop watching movies for political advice
[QUOTE=Xubs;51342488]not another republican, I hope[/QUOTE] No libertarians either until they come up with somebody who isnt crazy
[QUOTE=wystan;51342458]Can you explain to me what I said isn't reasonable? Why wouldn't you take every necessary step to try and save innocent people?[/QUOTE] Because, again, as demonstrated countless times to you, torture is not a necessary step. Torture is pointless. We know as a fact that it does not work. Even if there is zero doubt whatsoever that the person you are torturing is guilty, thus potentially making the argument morally defensible should you have a "grey" perspective of morality, we [I]already know that torture does not save lives.[/I] You are arguing, still, as if torture is a cruel, but necessary venture in the quest to protect people. It is not. It is just as pointless and irrelevant as asking a magic eight ball, but with the added burden of committing a crime against humanity. In the quest for intelligence, torture is about as relevant and credible as your horoscope, or Tarot cards.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51342479]So what's going to be the next Presidential line of succession, after Trump and Pence?[/QUOTE] The speaker of the House, Paul Ryan
[QUOTE=wystan;51342482]I think it's quite a stretch to say torture has never worked ever.[/QUOTE] Is it worth the number of innocent people you'll fuck up in the process? That's the question you should be focused on. The CIA thinks not.
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