Donald Trump elected President of the United States - Deal with it, lmao
1,893 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343732]Okay, so how do you [B]feel[/B] about the actions you just voted for and how it affects those people?
Do you honestly believe that the people who are scared will face 0 effects in 4 years?[/QUOTE]
I don't see Trump as a bigot, so I don't see myself as a bigot for having voted for him. I realize that people will be affected by the policies that Trump will enact, and that some people will be more affected than others. It's not surprising that those that stand to be negatively affected may be scared. But I don't think most of the catastrophism being espoused here is from those people.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51343745]the fact that you see this like winning a competition like a game or sport suggests that it's probably you who needs to grow the fuck up[/QUOTE]
To be fair, the elections in America seem to be talked about in exactly this way by the American media.
[QUOTE=Pelf;51343737]So maybe we should vote for the horribly corrupt candidate who rigged their way into the general election? But that would mean we support corruption in politics, by your logic.
Theres far more to a candidate than their personal bigotries. I would take a bigot over a highly corrupt family-dynasty politician any day. they are everything thats wrong with politics in this country right now.[/QUOTE]
Okay, cool. So this is the reason you voted for Trump - fair enough, I get it. I don't disagree that the American political system has problems.
Are you willing to accept that in voting for Trump you also made a vote to support the proliferation of coal and have a climate changer denier as your energy minister? Are you willing to accept that in voting for Trump you made a vote to enable stop and frisk of black people? Are you willing to accept that in voting for Trump you made a vote to push humanitarian refugees out of your country? Are you willing to accept that you voted a man with a history of accusations of sexual abuse into a position of leadership in the country? And are you willing to accept that you voted in a president with an economic plan that most economists agree will course your country to economic disaster, much worse than it is now?
Most of all are you willing to accept that you voted for a man who actively encouraged violence against the media, and did not actively discourage violence against the disabled during the course of his campaign?
You can't cherry pick. You need to accept that these are things you actively voted for. At what point do you draw the line on what you're willing to support?
[QUOTE=wewt!;51343757]Competition/lost/teams etc is irrelevant, what's more important is how the left and right will communicate from now on to make sure that the right policies are put through. I'm sure even you don't want to limit peoples rights, so surely you agree that splitting the two sides down to two teams is counterproductive when we should be working towards the same goal? Hell, even Trump admitted to this in his victory speech.
He's oversimplifying it and you're overreacting.
The american liberal population is not excluded from the government's decision making just because a nonliberal candidate came into power.[/QUOTE]
It's a republican senate. The dems will be spineless and fail to oppose anything they enact in a meaningful way.
[editline]9th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343759]I don't see Trump as a bigot, so I don't see myself as a bigot for having voted for him. I realize that people will be affected by the policies that Trump will enact, and that some people will be more effected than others. It's not surprising that those that stand to be negatively affected may be scared. But I don't think most of the catastrophism being espoused here is from those people.[/QUOTE]
Everyone here crying about the rights of the LGBT are themselves LGBT
Myself included
Everybody love everybody damnit
This thread is the epitome of our current problem. People want to cry that their country is so divided yet take every single opportunity to fling shit at each other.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343646]I don't go for the "liberal tears" (or "Remainer tears" for Brexit) thing but you guys who are whining and complaining and saying how the country is ruined are annoying and it makes you look so petty. Stop embarrassing yourselves. Grow up, the other team won. Have you never lost a competition before?[/QUOTE]
i also think the melodrama is pretty embarrassing, but i pray you're smart enough to realize you can't just compare the people elected to shape the future of a country to any random competition (i mean, i guess you CAN, but it's a pretty embarrassing level of dishonesty as well)
I wish Dubya would come back.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343718]If you actively do something to further a bigoted action, are you yourself not a bigot?
This is the problem here, logically speaking it makes sense for many liberals think that Trump voters really are nazis/deplorables/bigots.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily, no. As disturbing as I find Donald Trump, and the forces that let him rise to power, he is a [I]set[/I] of beliefs. It is possible to subscribe to some of them without subscribing to them all. If you voted for him on the basis that you wanted to see a reduction of rights for homosexuals, then yeah, you're probably a bigot. If you voted for him on different terms, however, then your reasons are your own and it's not fair to assume otherwise.
It [B]is[/B] easy to make the argument that supporting a man with bigoted, xenophobic policies makes you a bigot and a xenophobe by extension, but I think that also serves to blur the lines and broaden the definition of the terms, making them increasingly meaningless. After all, if [I]everybody[/I] who supported Donald Trump is a bigot and a xenophobe, then surely the very [I]legimate[/I] bigots and xenophobes among his ilk are no worse then anybody else, right?
Painting all of Trump's supporters by that brush gives less weight to the charges when discussing Pence's repugnant views regarding gay conversion camps, and to those among the masses who might support even more regressive and horrifying measures.
I do wholeheartedly believe that Pence is a tried and true bigot. I believe that Donald Trump is a fuming xenophobe, and/or (at the very least) an unscrupulous demagogue who isn't above [I]using[/I] xenophobia to unite people in support of it for the sake of political expediency. However, I need to be more careful with using those terms against his supporters (as a general lot) for the reasons I outlined above.
Reposted from the other election thread. I'm interesting to hear you guys' thoughts:
[QUOTE=Zyler;51343434]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51343336]I thought about that and it's a fair question, but no, I don't think so. Pages back I paused and reviewed my interactions with people on here, elsewhere, and among people offline, I think Facepunch is a lot more disconnected with the actual reality of what goes on but in general? Nah, the Democrats on here are a lot like Democrats elsewhere.
Oh [I]absolutely[/I] it's possible, and it's true for a large chunk of both voters. Those people who absolutely disliked either candidate enough to feel entirely unrepresented but still detested the others likely went third party. I mean shit, I agree with Donald Trump's words on a few topics but I know he's a RINO so I don't trust him to actually commit to those policies.
What really concerns me, really, really concerns me, is the abortion discussion that took place. If we lose abortion you can full stop thank Clinton for that, out-right denying that partial birth abortion was [I]ever[/I] okay and then [I]telling a bold-faced lie on national television about when it was criminalized[/I] sealed the deal for that shit. Just so she could take credit for that herself, that's all it was. When people get curious, as they often do, they check up on these things and let me tell you even I was unaware that this shit was [I]ever[/I] okay. I really thought that abortion was the ending of this little sea monkey but [I]haha sometimes it is [U]not[/U] that at all.[/I] Finding more about the issue made me sympathize heavily with the pro-life side, I've seen some real shit over the years and a video of a partial birth abortion traumatized and disgusted me to my core.
Now imagine a housewife with two kids seeing that same video, instant pro-lifer, along with her husband.[/QUOTE]
It's a matter of priorities really. My first instinct was to respond to your post asking whether the abortion stuff is more important than LGBT rights and people being able afford the medication they need to live through obamacare, but that would be exactly the same as a trump supporter who responds to a list of reasonable arguments with "emails, corruption, LOCK HER UP".
When I said that the people who voted for Trump actually liked Trump and the people who liked Hillary actually liked Hillary, I actually should have said people liked their stances and not that they liked the candidates as people.
I think people despised both candidates equally, not disliked or disapproved of, but actual full-blown despised. The most effective rhetoric was this general notion that "they're both exactly the same", which I feel was completely false. It basically made it so nobody even tried to defend their chosen candidate. It was always about who was worse, yet it was basically assumed that no matter what Trump did, Clinton was secretly just as bad because [i]reasons[/i].
People choose what they want to believe and then find evidence to support it, not the other way around. If you want to believe something badly enough, you can always find something to support that belief.
The general meme of "they're just as bad as each other" was so compelling because it puts the believer above the entire political system. It essentially makes it so that you can look down on everybody else and say "Look at those silly people who believe things. Look at those Trump supporters. Look at those Hillary supporters. Everybody but me is mindlessly accepting things and arguing for one of two side of the same coin. Only I am clever enough to see through all the lies and delusion; how this election is a sham and the two sides are exactly the same."
Once you choose this belief, you start seeing 'evidence' for it everywhere. Just take any instance of anyone on any political 'side' doing something wrong and say "aha, see I knew everybody but me is stupid!"
With this premise, it makes sense to vote for Trump- because both candidates are exactly the same except one is the wildcard and might bluster his way into success somehow.
This is why nobody could defend Trump's policies or even his character, it was never about that to begin with.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343766]Everyone here crying about the rights of the LGBT are themselves LGBT
Myself included[/QUOTE]
I doubt that this is true.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51343729]I don't disagree, but (as you pointed out) the reason for the degeneration of substance is exactly what I'm referencing. The political entrenchment has fed into rift of perception rather than reality.
"BLM hates cops! People who don't support BLM are racists!"
It has become increasingly difficult for either side to admit that the apparent opposition ever [I]had[/I] any merit. Tather than being willing to see that this anger is actually fueled by legitimate problems, it becomes a matter of finding examples of the bad eggs that confirm your suspicions, and as this rift gets wider and wider, this gets easier and easier to do.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I agree with this. I dislike collectivist thinking in general, it makes the health of the collective more important than the troubles it tries to solve.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343782]I doubt that this is true.[/QUOTE]
what authority do you have to claim that they aren't? HumanAbyss has already said he is LGBT, are you just going to not believe him so you can win the argument? Even if they aren't, are you saying that people who aren't LGBT are not allowed to feel concern for people who are? I'm straight but I'm sure as shit scared for gay people in America right now.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343766]It's a republican senate. The dems will be spineless and fail to oppose anything they enact in a meaningful way.
[editline]9th November 2016[/editline]
Everyone here crying about the rights of the LGBT are themselves LGBT
Myself included[/QUOTE]
CIS scum reporting in, genuinely afraid for the future of my many LGBT friends and family.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343690]Sure it will. But enough Americans decided that this is a good thing for the country.[/QUOTE]
Trump's "movement" is fraud. He connected with people on an emotional level while running on flimsy policies that none of them bothered to scrutinize. Neither half of the country is going to get what they want.
[QUOTE=hippowombat;51343798]CIS scum reporting in, genuinely afraid for the future of my many LGBT friends and family.[/QUOTE]
Same. I'm not LGBT but I have plenty of friends who are, and health issues for straight women are just as in jeopardy. Are we not supposed to be concerned if we don't belong to either of those groups?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343766]
Everyone here crying about the rights of the LGBT are themselves LGBT
Myself included[/QUOTE]
I'm not.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51343778]Not necessarily, no. As disturbing as I find Donald Trump, and the forces that let him rise to power, he is a [I]set[/I] of beliefs. It is possible to subscribe to some of them without subscribing to them all. If you voted for him on the basis that you wanted to see a reduction of rights for homosexuals, then yeah, you're probably a bigot. If you voted for him on different terms, however, then your reasons are your own and it's not fair to assume otherwise.
It [B]is[/B] easy to make the argument that supporting a man with bigoted, xenophobic policies makes you a bigot and a xenophobe by extension, but I think that also serves to blur the lines and broaden the definition of the terms, making them increasingly meaningless. After all, if [I]everybody[/I] who supported Donald Trump is a bigot and a xenophobe, then surely the very [I]legimate[/I] bigots and xenophobes among his ilk are no worse then anybody else, right?
Painting all of Trump's supporters by that brush gives less weight to the charges when discussing Pence's repugnant views regarding gay conversion camps, and to those among the masses who might support even more regressive and horrifying measures.
I do wholeheartedly believe that Pence is a tried and true bigot. I believe that Donald Trump is a fuming xenophobe, or (at the very least) an unscrupulous demagogue who isn't above [I]using[/I] xenophobia to unite people in support of it for the sake of political expediency. However, I need to be more careful with using those terms against his supporters (as a general lot) for the reasons I outlined above.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. I also think it is important to realize that when you vote for a candidate, you weigh their policies on a curve. For example, immigration restriction can rate a 90/100 for somebody, while a potential reduction in LGBT rights only scores a 20/100. So this person may be willing to take the risk that LGBT people lose out because they think the overall result will be better. You also have to take into account what chance you think any specific policy has of actually being implemented. If you don't think Trump has any chance of building the wall, then you can weigh that policy accordingly, or ignore it.
It is a complicated mix of things, and labels are only of limited use here.
[QUOTE=wewt!;51343790]Yeah, I agree with this. I dislike collectivist thinking in general, it makes the health of the collective more important than the troubles it tries to solve.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that collectivist thinking is so [I]easy[/I]. It's the default state, and requires a deliberate effort to unlearn. I'll probably be struggling with it myself for quite some time, because I'm still highly tempted to lash out!
On my last post, my initial response is to say, "[I]yes,[/I] of course supporting a bigot makes you a bigot!" Gotta take a step back from this shit, learn how to properly engage again. It used to be easy for me, but like so many other people I've let myself slide into the "team" mentality and become entrenched and aggressive.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;51343771]Everybody love everybody damnit
This thread is the epitome of our current problem. People want to cry that their country is so divided yet take every single opportunity to fling shit at each other.[/QUOTE]
The country is divided because a moron that has no faith in proven science and won off of buffoons accepting his thinly-veiled lies has been voted into the most powerful office on the planet. I refuse to simply forgive and love and move on. You have caused very real pain in the future.
I will likely never accept this, because Trump will never live up to my standards for a president.
[QUOTE=killerteacup;51343795]what authority do you have to claim that they aren't? HumanAbyss has already said he is LGBT, are you just going to not believe him so you can win the argument? Even if they aren't, are you saying that people who aren't LGBT are not allowed to feel concern for people who are? I'm straight but I'm sure as shit scared for gay people in America right now.[/QUOTE]
I'm doubting that the majority of the catastrophism is coming solely from LGBT people. I of course believe that he is LGBT.
[QUOTE=killerteacup;51343795]what authority do you have to claim that they aren't? HumanAbyss has already said he is LGBT, are you just going to not believe him so you can win the argument? Even if they aren't, are you saying that people who aren't LGBT are not allowed to feel concern for people who are? I'm straight but I'm sure as shit scared for gay people in America right now.[/QUOTE]
I'm even more generally concerned with the idea that anyone who presents any concern about what might happen is automatically labeled as a whiny crybaby who is just crying crocodile tears because they're unhappy about losing, is it actually possible to dehumanize your perceived political adversaries that much?
I fucking love TRUMP!
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343816]I'm doubting that the majority of the catastrophism is coming solely from LGBT people. I of course believe that he is LGBT.[/QUOTE]
Do you believe that the people who are complaining are actually worried about the future? Or are they just doing the crocodile tear thing because their team lost the football match?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343766]Everyone here crying about the rights of the LGBT are themselves LGBT
Myself included[/QUOTE]
I'm a straight white male, but as it turns out my family consists of women and homos too and I think I should care for their well-being
I'm LGBT still in the closet and I'm not very comfortable with the idea that my parents backwards ideology is vindicated by our president-elect.
I'm too old to come out now though.
[QUOTE=Pascall;51343833]I'm LGBT still in the closet and I'm not very comfortable with the idea that my parents backwards ideology is vindicated by our president-elect.
I'm too old to come out now though.[/QUOTE]
It is never to late to come out. Trump is just making it harder for us for no reason.
[QUOTE=Zyler;51343826]Do you believe that the people who are complaining are actually worried about the future? Or are they just doing the crocodile tear thing because their team lost the football match?[/QUOTE]
Its a mix. I believe that millennials, for whom this is their first presidential election, are particularly prone to making extreme statements like "its all over! we're doomed!". But of course many people are not happy with what they think Trump will do once in power, and they are worried.
[QUOTE=Pascall;51343833]I'm LGBT still in the closet and I'm not very comfortable with the idea that my parents backwards ideology is vindicated by our president-elect.
I'm too old to come out now though.[/QUOTE]
Don't flame me because I legitimately don't understand - I thought 'coming out of the closet' was admitting it to yourself. Is it admitting it to other people?
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;51343843]It is never to late to come out. Trump is just making it harder for us for [B]no reason[/B].[/QUOTE]
wait you mean you arent the enemy the church seeks to destroy after all??? who woulda thought!
I'm not calling Trump voters bigots. I don't think voting for him itself makes you a bigot. They were bigots who did vote for him, that's undeniable at this point. But I don't think supporting him makes you a bigot on it's own. Supporting his bigoted views does though, if you're personally totally unconcerned with the rights of those people, then yeah, I'm not sure what else to say about that.
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