Donald Trump elected President of the United States - Deal with it, lmao
1,893 replies, posted
[QUOTE=FlandersNed;51343849]Don't flame me because I legitimately don't understand - I thought 'coming out of the closet' was admitting it to yourself. Is it admitting it to other people?[/QUOTE]
Coming out means people know you are gay
It's a bit amusing to see people on other sites that were vehemently against Obama for the last 8 years saying things like "guys he won fair and square why can't we just work together now ;_;"
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343766]
Everyone here crying about the rights of the LGBT are themselves LGBT
Myself included[/QUOTE]
And here you were talking about bigotry, oh the irony.
[QUOTE=killerteacup;51343765]Okay, cool. So this is the reason you voted for Trump - fair enough, I get it. I don't disagree that the American political system has problems.
Are you willing to accept that in voting for Trump you also made a vote to support the proliferation of coal and have a climate changer denier as your energy minister? Are you willing to accept that in voting for Trump you made a vote to enable stop and frisk of black people? Are you willing to accept that in voting for Trump you made a vote to push humanitarian refugees out of your country? Are you willing to accept that you voted a man with a history of accusations of sexual abuse into a position of leadership in the country? And are you willing to accept that you voted in a president with an economic plan that most economists agree will course your country to economic disaster, much worse than it is now?
Most of all are you willing to accept that you voted for a man who actively encouraged violence against the media, and did not actively discourage violence against the disabled during the course of his campaign?
You can't cherry pick. You need to accept that these are things you actively voted for. At what point do you draw the line on what you're willing to support?[/QUOTE]
People vote on what's important to them. In america, and any other representative democracy, you have to accept whatever candidate the majority chooses.
I hate the guy just as much as any one of you, but the most important thing to me was keeping corruption out.
Also this forum has an unusually high concentration of LGBT people so I take that into account as well.
[QUOTE=FlandersNed;51343849]Don't flame me because I legitimately don't understand - I thought 'coming out of the closet' was admitting it to yourself. Is it admitting it to other people?[/QUOTE]
It means letting others know, yeah.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343847]Its a mix. I believe that millennials, for whom this is their first presidential election, are particularly prone to making extreme statements like "its all over! we're doomed!". But of course many people are not happy with what they think Trump will do once in power, and they are worried.[/QUOTE]
That's obviously hyperbole. It's not over, we're not doomed (necessarily). But there is big potential for a lot of regressive bullshit in the next 4 years.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343809]Thanks for this. I also think it is important to realize that when you vote for a candidate, you weight their policies on a curve. For example, immigration restriction can rate a 90/100 for somebody, while a potential reduction in LGBT rights only scores a 20/100. So this person may be willing to take the risk that LGBT people lose out because they think the overall result will be better. You also have to take into account what chance you think any specific policy has of actually being implemented. If you don't think Trump has any chance of building the wall, then you can weigh that policy accordingly, or ignore it.
It is a complicated mix of things, and labels are only of limited use here.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, it's a matter of priorities. It's important to realize that, for many people, the stuff that they care about might be different from the stuff that you care about. People who disagree with you might be wrong, but they aren't willfully or knowingly insulting you, they probably don't even understand you and likewise you don't understand them.
It's important to work out what the baseline is, rather than spouting arguments at people based on what we assume their opinions are. We need to first ascertain what they know and how they've reached their opinions, because people hold a wide range of views for a wide range of different reasons.
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51343858]And here you were talking about bigotry, oh the irony.[/QUOTE]
I miss spoke. The majority are.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343860]Also this forum has an unusually high concentration of LGBT people so I take that into account as well.[/QUOTE]
Not really though? they're worried about their future, and damn right they should
if anything there aren't enough to be any more relevant than they should be
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343851]I'm not calling Trump voters bigots. I don't think voting for him itself makes you a bigot. They were bigots who did vote for him, that's undeniable at this point. But I don't think supporting him makes you a bigot on it's own. Supporting his bigoted views does though, if you're personally totally unconcerned with the rights of those people, then yeah, I'm not sure what else to say about that.[/QUOTE]
Supporting a bigot doesn't necessarily make you a bigot (unless you support the bigoted views specifically), but not caring enough about someone's bigotry who you've put in power because it doesn't affect you is still terrible.
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;51343850]wait you mean you arent the enemy the church seeks to destroy after all??? who woulda thought![/QUOTE]
But its OK. Trump is going to cure us of our LGBT feelings and make us productive members of society again following the true god loving Republican american dream.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;51343811]The problem is that collectivist thinking is so [I]easy[/I]. It's the default state, and requires a deliberate effort to unlearn. I'll probably be struggling with it myself for quite some time, because I'm still highly tempted to lash out!
On my last post, my initial response is to say, "[I]yes,[/I] of course supporting a bigot makes you a bigot!" Gotta take a step back from this shit, learn how to properly engage again. It used to be easy for me, but like so many other people I've let myself slide into the "team" mentality and become entrenched and aggressive.[/QUOTE]
Not specifically aimed at you, but it is important to let skeptical thought back into the liberal movement, and I think that your self reflection will probably help you notice just how little skepticism is aimed at the left today (by other members of the left). That of course also means listening to the dissenting opinion and being self critical/doubting, which is in itself difficult but it is important.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343759]I don't see Trump as a bigot, so I don't see myself as a bigot for having voted for him. [B]I realize that people will be affected by the policies that Trump will enact, and that some people will be more affected than others. It's not surprising that those that stand to be negatively affected may be scared. [/b] But I don't think most of the catastrophism being espoused here is from those people.[/QUOTE]
That's a euphemism if I ever saw one. If you by "People will be affected" mean "Some people will no longer be allowed to marry each other" or "Trump doesn't believe in climate change, and he's in charge of the 2nd largest exporter of CO2, basically spelling out four years of inaction in a critical time" or "People will preexisting conditions may now be financially ruined and die because they may no longer get insurance to cover their condition", then yeah, some people will be more affected by others, and "they may be scared".
Stop talking about this like "people may be affected" and "they may be scared", unless you actually decide to add "....by the fact that I don't want/care about them to be able to marry each" to the first or "...that I don't care that climate change might cause much suffering in the future" to the second. This isn't about "winning" like it's some grade school election, it's about the direction the world's only super power will take on a number of important issues the next four years. That isn't trivial.
[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;51343828]I'm a straight white male, but as it turns out my family consists of women and homos too and I think I should care for their well-being[/QUOTE]
Same. Most of my friends are women, a big swathe of them are gay, one is a devout Muslim, etc. We're not concerned over getting the wrong mascot; a Trump presidency is personally threatening to many of us. Even for those of us who [I]don't[/I] have personal stakes in this, it can be a matter of simple empathy. Not having gay friends doesn't mean you can't be concerned over the consequences of having Mike "conversion camps" Pence as our Vice President, because conversion camps are a horrifying concept. They're nothing short of psychological torture.
Please try to understand, Pantz, that just because you (or anyone else) may not place the same level of personal importance on the policies and subjects that we do that they aren't valid or relevant concerns, and that we aren't somewhat justified in our fears. As you only just explained, what may be a 20/100 topic for you is very easily a 100/100 topic for somebody else. A Trump presidency, a double red congress, and triple-nomination of conservative supreme court justices spells [I]potentially catastrophic[/I] damage for progressive social policy, and that is the basis of many people entire lifestyle.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51343851]I'm not calling Trump voters bigots. I don't think voting for him itself makes you a bigot. They were bigots who did vote for him, that's undeniable at this point. But I don't think supporting him makes you a bigot on it's own. Supporting his bigoted views does though, if you're personally totally unconcerned with the rights of those people, then yeah, I'm not sure what else to say about that.[/QUOTE]
What do you say to me if I care so much about Trump's policies on trade, that I'm willing to accept a reduction in LGBT rights to see him win? What if I understand that my vote will reduce LGBT rights, but I am willing to see that happen because of some other thing that I want to get done?
[QUOTE=wewt!;51343879]Not specifically aimed at you, but it is important to let skeptical thought back into the liberal movement, and I think that your self reflection will probably help you notice just how little skepticism is aimed at the left today (by other members of the left). That of course also means listening to the dissenting opinion and being self critical/doubting, which is in itself difficult but it is important.[/QUOTE]
And here we return to one of our previous points
I've seen how being in any way critical of the leftist agenda (like quotas, for example) gets all the diehard anti-right (because calling them left wouldn't be correct) to call you a bigot
it's time to keep an eye out on both sides of the political spectrum, as of today we know it's a horseshoe
[QUOTE=wewt!;51343879]Not specifically aimed at you, but it is important to let skeptical thought back into the liberal movement, and I think that your self reflection will probably help you notice just how little skepticism is aimed at the left today (by other members of the left). That of course also means listening to the dissenting opinion and being self critical/doubting, which is in itself difficult but it is important.[/QUOTE]
The main problem as I see it is that you have two 'sides' of people who are supposed to keep each other in check by criticizing each other, i.e. the democrats keep the republicans in check and the republicans keep the democrats in check. When this works you have a healthy discourse because any perspective idea within a political space needs to be designed so as to survive the trial-by-fire of scathing criticism.
The problem is that, from the point of view of left-wing people, the republicans and conservatives across the world have become bat shit insane. I don't know whether it's because the right have moved further right or the left have moved further left, or both. Either way, it means that the trial-by-fire process no longer exists and any idea that sounds good enough gets through the checking process because it doesn't need to be falsified and hardened against criticism.
The joke went too far
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343891]What do you say to me if I care so much about Trump's policies on trade, that I'm willing to accept a reduction in LGBT rights to see him win? What if I understand that my vote will reduce LGBT rights, but I am willing to see that happen because of some other thing that I want to get done?[/QUOTE]
I'd argue you have the wrong priorities.
I think that's the only real baseline argument we can have about this stuff.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51343883]That's a euphemism if I ever saw one. If you by "People will be affected" mean "Some people will no longer be allowed to marry each other" or "Trump doesn't believe in climate change, and he's in charge of the 2nd largest exporter of CO2, basically spelling out four years of inaction in a critical time" or "People will preexisting conditions may now be financially ruined and die because they may no longer get insurance to cover their condition", then yeah, some people will be more affected by others, and "they may be scared".
[B]Stop talking about this like "people may be affected" and "they may be scared", unless you actually decide to add "....by the fact that I don't want/care about them to be able to marry each" to the first or "...that I don't care that climate change might cause much suffering in the future" to the second.[/B] This isn't about "winning" like it's some grade school election, it's about the direction the world's only super power will take on a number of important issues the next four years. That isn't trivial.[/QUOTE]
This is a useless appeal to emotion. You're basically saying that any vote for Trump is unacceptable. That is fine, but realize that I don't see things that way. Read my other post about weighing policies on a curve.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O13kaQAg5KE[/media]
just a tennis match haha right guys chill out
[QUOTE=wewt!;51343879]Not specifically aimed at you, but it is important to let skeptical thought back into the liberal movement, and I think that your self reflection will probably help you notice just how little skepticism is aimed at the left today (by other members of the left). That of course also means listening to the dissenting opinion and being self critical/doubting, which is in itself difficult but it is important.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you're probably right on that, and it ties into exactly what I'm talking about.
I think best case scenario he goes back to not caring about much and no progressive stuff gets overturned for fear of retribution. Trump talked shit the whole campaign and got elected for it, now he doesn't have to hyperbolize anymore
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343809]Thanks for this. I also think it is important to realize that when you vote for a candidate, you weight their policies on a curve. For example, immigration restriction can rate a 90/100 for somebody, while a potential reduction in LGBT rights only scores a 20/100. So this person may be willing to take the risk that LGBT people lose out because they think the overall result will be better. You also have to take into account what chance you think any specific policy has of actually being implemented. If you don't think Trump has any chance of building the wall, then you can weigh that policy accordingly, or ignore it.
It is a complicated mix of things, and labels are only of limited use here.[/QUOTE]
Look, I want to respect your views, but I simply do not see why Trump would be the better candidate. I simply cannot understand.
His whole platform was built on discriminating rhetoric, vague promises about plans to fix the economy (which were disproved by experts, multiple times), and slinging mud at the other candidate. What other policies are left?!
Trump's rhetoric reflects on those who voted for him.
All I see is a con artist, promising everyone he'll make everything better if you just put all your trust in him, without explaining how. I see a cold-hearted, ruthless capitalist that chases short-term profit, disregarding consequences. I see an opportunist preying on people's fears and latent racist sentiments.
If the majority of the country stands by his viewpoints, that's disconcerting.
So please, help me understand. Give me one redeeming quality about this man, and how he could improve the free world as its leader.
[QUOTE=Zyler;51343908]I'd argue you have the wrong priorities.[/QUOTE]
My point here is simply to illustrate the mindset behind voting for a certain candidate.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343891]What do you say to me if I care so much about Trump's policies on trade, that I'm willing to accept a reduction in LGBT rights to see him win? What if I understand that my vote will reduce LGBT rights, but I am willing to see that happen because of some other thing that I want to get done?[/QUOTE]
Personally I'd say you should think about how much you yourself would sacrifice for that policy. Would you suffer the right to get married? Would you sacrifice being able to buy health insurance to pay for your expensive condition?
Of course you have to weigh everything, but you should put yourself in that spot and decide whether you'd be okay with someone else making that prioritization for you.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343891]What do you say to me if I care so much about Trump's policies on trade, that I'm willing to accept a reduction in LGBT rights to see him win? What if I understand that my vote will reduce LGBT rights, but I am willing to see that happen because of some other thing that I want to get done?[/QUOTE]
Then I would argue that you need to be willing to accept that you've prioritized trade over human rights, and that this decision is going to come with a certain level of justified criticism.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343718]If you actively do something to further a bigoted action, are you yourself not a bigot?
This is the problem here, logically speaking it makes sense for many liberals think that Trump voters really are nazis/deplorables/bigots.[/QUOTE]
I think it's too much of a generalization to immediately jump to that viewpoint. My irl best friend voted Trump because he was totally ignorant of a lot of the downsides of what voting for Trump entailed. He's totally pro-LGBT, for example, and while he says way too much racist shit simply for shock value he's also not a racist person at all. So voting Trump actually didn't support his views at all.
I'm far less disappointed in him for not voting the same as me than I am disappointed in him for not even looking into the policies his candidate supported and falling for vapid rhetoric instead. (Him voting Republican doesn't surprise me because he and his family are socially liberal Republicans.)
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343782]I doubt that this is true.[/QUOTE]
From what I've seen most of the people complaining about LGBT rights since last night have been LGBT themselves or are quite close to someone who is LGBT. Definitely not all for sure but it does look to be the majority at the very least. Though it is important to keep in mind that most of the communities I frequent have fairly large LGBT groups to begin with. It could be totally different in general, though I think that LGBT people and their close friends and family are going to be the loudest complainers here.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51343919]My point here is simply to illustrate the mindset behind voting for a certain candidate.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree with you.
In the future, I think we should try to focus on having arguments based on priorities rather than trying to shame people in order to make them understand stuff (which I honestly think is more of a result of people here trying to understand why other people disagreed with them rather than an actual attempt to persuade based on a common understanding).
Essentially, we can move on from saying "I don't understand why people support Trump" or "Why are you doing this?" because we now know why people supported Trump, differences in priorities. We should start from that baseline instead of being incredulous at other people's choices, even if that incredulity is genuine.
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