Colorado passes bill granting $5000 tax incentive that can be immediately realized
64 replies, posted
Sweden should Legalize marijuana so we can afford this PC immigration :v:
[QUOTE=Morgen;50338442]Don't most states have a "use" tax that covers buying things out of state? I'm sure it's possible to abuse but that goes for just about any tax differences between the states.
I don't think the way Colorado have implemented this state tax incentive is bad since it allows you to assign it to your car dealer, so they can discount that for you. I would think low income groups would prefer $5k now over $5k over several years? It would be nice if the federal tax incentive was done in a similar way so that poorer people didn't get less of an incentive than rich people.[/QUOTE]
The way Colorodo did it isn't terrible, but I thought there were some wording hiccups making it a bit more complicated for third party financing (non dealer). Maybe not.
As for the use tax, yeah many (most?) states have that, but the rules are typically very lax, and more importantly, are very difficult to properly enforce. Why yes, this car that my family member/buisness bought and registered out of state is now being moved here and will soon be transferred to my name. Coincidences abound! :smug:
At it's core it's plain old tax evasion, but the rules can't be very draconian, and can't be enforced very well because the value of a used car isn't exactly easy to quantify, so neither can the sales tax, whereas taxable income is very easy to track. Gifts between family, and 'family' frequently have exemptions, and plenty of places let you register a car there after a few months or a year and ignore sales taxes entirely. In some states that don't let you avoid those taxes, you can make it a multi step process instead. Move it to a state that has taxes that you can avoid, then move it to where you want it, and use that as proof that you paid sales tax, even though you actually didn't. This works because most places have rules made to prevent double dipping on the tax, sort of like interstate income taxes.
Doesn't always work, but there's nothing inherently illegal about owning a car registered in another state. It's only illegal in certain contexts. Of course this is at best legally light grey, and in some cases is outright illegal, but as long as you avoid tripping any alarms, you can get away with it. My family did almost exactly this accidentally when we moved across country when I was in preschool. There was a bit of extra paperwork, and my parents had to show continuous ownership of the car over the preceding 3 or 6 or whatever months, but they paid no additional sales tax.
The amount of money you have to make to qualify for these means you don't need help owning a $30,000 car. It's nice they're giving an incentive to buy them, but not much use for people who have to be picky with what they buy
The incentive isn't to make it easier to afford the car. It's to encourage people to buy cars that don't destroy the environment.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50336248]Twice the average American income is most definitely rich.[/QUOTE]
Wealthy, yes. Rich, not so much.
[QUOTE=Coyoteze;50339655]Wealthy, yes. Rich, not so much.[/QUOTE]
Wealthy is literally a synonym for "rich". I think you're looking for "well off".
[QUOTE=Coyoteze;50339655]Wealthy, yes. Rich, not so much.[/QUOTE]
Relative, yes. Objective, no.
[QUOTE=geel9;50339650]The incentive isn't to make it easier to afford the car. It's to encourage people to buy cars that don't destroy the environment.[/QUOTE]
By making them more affordable, relative to their counterparts.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50336248]Twice the average American income is most definitely rich.[/QUOTE]
It's all relative to where you live. 100k a year will go a lot farther in some places than in others. It's not fair to call someone that makes 100k a year rich, if the houses in their area average 600-800k for a crappy house. (Look at silicon valley) basing it off the average national income isn't fair because it doesn't consider how each locality is different.
I generally don't consider someone rich until at least 500k to a million per year. It's much better to just not be salty about other people's income and worry about yourself.
[editline]17th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=geel9;50339660]Wealthy is literally a synonym for "rich". I think you're looking for "well off".[/QUOTE]
100k might not even be well off in some areas if you have to live there for your career. New York, San Francisco, etc have astronomical prices.
2 bd, 1.0 ba, 1,260 sqft home in San Jose, California, $385,000:[url]http://u.zillow.com/p1K6jj[/url]
4 bd, 4.0 ba, 3,465 sqft home in Austin, Texas, $400,000: [url]http://u.zillow.com/p4nsOx[/url]
These houses are in the same price range, but one is clearly better than the other. I doubt you'd be feeling very rich in a 2 bed 1 bath shack when you visit you buddy in Austin that got almost 3 times the house for 15 grand more.
If you're able to get around the exorbitant prices of living (eg as you said not living in NY/SanFran) then yeah it is rich.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;50340039]If you're able to get around the exorbitant prices of living (eg as you said not living in NY/SanFran) then yeah it is rich.[/QUOTE]
Again, I'll ask: what can someone who is "rich" to you do?
So basically, they give you money for buying EV car but make that back with your raised power bill each month lol
[QUOTE=Amplar;50340502]So basically, they give you money for buying EV car but make that back with your raised power bill each month lol[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's the motivation behind it, it's going to be cheaper than buying fuel.
[QUOTE=Amplar;50340502]So basically, they give you money for buying EV car but make that back with your raised power bill each month lol[/QUOTE]
I'd much rather pay the $0.11/kWh for my EV car daily than $2.25/Gal for the ICE every week
[QUOTE=Amplar;50340502]So basically, they give you money for buying EV car but make that back with your raised power bill each month lol[/QUOTE]
You say that like gas isn't taxed.
[QUOTE=Amplar;50340502]So basically, they give you money for buying EV car but make that back with your raised power bill each month lol[/QUOTE]
scales of economies, electricity is way cheaper than gasoline to generate and distribute
i mean a tesla is what an 85 kWh battery, so on the face of it, without getting into the confusing math behind kwh and kw and charging, you're going to use at most, 85 more kwh at your house per day (but you're probably not because draining your battery completely every day would be stupid), which maybe 10-20 dollars added to your electricity bill at the end of the month, as opposed to the 30-40$ a week you'd shell out for a gas car
[editline]17th May 2016[/editline]
hillariously if i had an electric car [I]and[/I] didn't mind the wait time, i could charge up for free because my appartment has free electricity due to it being split between 2 utility room pannels and the lazy management not wanting to pay an electrician to wire in a separate pannel and meter, though they'd probably say something about running an extension cord out my window and into the parking lot
i'm not joking, when they had to change out an outlet, i found out half my appartment is on the utility room to the right of me with the building's water heaters, and the other half is on the utility room on the other side of my building with the washer and dryers
just a funny thought on the matter
[QUOTE=Sableye;50341962]which maybe 10-20 dollars added to your electricity bill at the end of the month, as opposed to the 30-40$ a week you'd shell out for a gas car[/QUOTE]
This is [b]wildly[/b] optimistic unless you daily drive this.
[img]http://image.trucktrend.com/f/news/9104552+w799+h499+cr1+ar0/0705dp_04_z+nasa_diesel_shuttle_crawler+shuttle.jpg[/img]
Average range per kw/h seems to float just under 3 miles. Call it an even 3 miles if you aren't driving aggressively. Call a kw/h 10-15 cents. Call gas $2.00 - $2.50. That is going to get you an average equivalent mpg in the 60 range. If you are in an area that gives you special off-hour rates, or in places like Texas, it might be much better. Someone paying 5 cents per kw/h actually winds up paying more for tires than they pay in electricity. That isn't typical though. Some parts of the country can charge 20 cents, and that pushes the fuel economy down into the 40s quite easily. As gas prices eventually go up, this equivalent will get better, naturally, but Tesla's really aren't as "fuel" efficient as they are commonly made out to be, at least not in America where gas is cheap as hell.
The theoretical savings on EVs doesn't come from the fuel, it comes from the drive train maintenance, or more specifically the near complete lack thereof. Tesla still has work to do on that front, though their new drive units are apparently doing decently (finally). Stuff like fluid changes add up, as do more comprehensive engine repairs, pennies and nickels at a time to be sure, but they are a very significant cost in the long run.
40mpg is still really good though. 60mpg is amazing for a car as powerful as the model s.
The ICE equivalent to the Model S is I guess a Mercedes E63 amg? Which claims 28 mpg, while still being slower. It sounds like the Model 3 is going to use about 255 Wh/mile, or less in ideal conditions. In the UK I'd save so much on fuel even with the Model S that it's the equivalent of more than 100 mpg right now. Fuel savings are less of a thing in the US though, and electric seems to be slightly more expensive than in Europe.
[QUOTE=geel9;50342540]40mpg is still really good though. 60mpg is amazing for a car as powerful as the model s.[/QUOTE]
Definitely, but it's simply not a 16x improvement, which is what Sableye was suggesting.
An S runs you around a nickel a mile on fuel in the US. Most other cars run in the dime range. That's an improvement, but it's not enough to sell the car without other stuff. For most of Europe it's a lot better because gas is so much more expensive. Then again, most of Europe is paying a bit more for electricity too.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50344021]Definitely, but it's simply not a 16x improvement, which is what Sableye was suggesting.
An S runs you around a nickel a mile on fuel in the US. Most other cars run in the dime range. That's an improvement, but it's not enough to sell the car without other stuff. For most of Europe it's a lot better because gas is so much more expensive. Then again, most of Europe is paying a bit more for electricity too.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure about all of Europe's electric costs but in the UK at night I only pay 5 pence per kWh, 10 during the day. If I use 300 Wh/Mile and exclusively charge at night, compared to a car that gets 51 MPG and with current diesel prices at £4.12 a gallon if I do 15k miles a year I'll save £986 a year. At current fuel prices I would need a car that gets 274 MPG to match that. If the Model 3 can get 255 Wh/Mile then I'm looking at the equivalent of 323 MPG and a saving of £1020 a year. Over ten years with a Model S I would be saving almost £10k!
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50344021]Definitely, but it's simply not a 16x improvement, which is what Sableye was suggesting.
An S runs you around a nickel a mile on fuel in the US. Most other cars run in the dime range. That's an improvement, but it's not enough to sell the car without other stuff. For most of Europe it's a lot better because gas is so much more expensive. Then again, most of Europe is paying a bit more for electricity too.[/QUOTE]
I never said 16x improvement, I was pointing out that you won't pay nearly as much in electricity as you do in gas monthly, you're the one that dragged out the NASA crawlers and then went off on a tangent about added costs to ICE cars
You forget though that Tesla may eat those charges through service plans but their cars still have coolant and tires and brakes and other parts that wear out over time. Tesla's have great reputation because like Mercedes, the company takes really good care of them on a service plan but when we have 10-15 year old Tesla's some day they will break and have other added maintenance expenses just like normal cars
[QUOTE=Sableye;50344359]I never said 16x improvement, I was pointing out that you won't pay nearly as much in electricity as you do in gas monthly, you're the one that dragged out the NASA crawlers and then went off on a tangent about added costs to ICE cars[/QUOTE]
You said this.
[quote]which maybe 10-20 dollars added to your electricity bill at the end of the month, as opposed to the 30-40$ a week you'd shell out for a gas car[/quote]
4+ weeks in a month = 120-160+ dollars, vs 10-20 dollars. 16x. You said it could be 16x. I showed the math saying otherwise.
[QUOTE=Sableye;50344359]You forget though that Tesla may eat those charges through service plans but their cars still have coolant and tires and brakes and other parts that wear out over time. Tesla's have great reputation because like Mercedes, the company takes really good care of them on a service plan but when we have 10-15 year old Tesla's some day they will break and have other added maintenance expenses just like normal cars[/QUOTE]
Actually I've been one of the few on FP who has consistently ripped into tesla for their inescapably shitty engineering. In particular, their drive unit failure rates have been utterly unacceptable. That doesn't change the fact that the routine maintenance on a pure EV should be significantly less routine than on a gas car. Things like the coolant needing to be changed far less often, and things like regenerative braking leading to less break wear, mean many of the consumables on the car are consumed far more slowly, and the cars simply do not even use some consumables like motor oil. The savings on the non fuel consumables should easily wind up being more than the fuel savings (in the US). The only thing I'm aware of that costs more over time is the 12v battery because of the high vamp loads leading to it being constantly deep cycled.
Tesla's problem right now are how ungodly expensive things like body work are, and the frequency of seriously debilitating equipment failures they have. Alleviate those, and the cars can easily push into the 15-20 cents per mile range. That's cheap enough that fair mileage rates make it so the tax savings for driving the car exceed the operational costs, which is [i]insane.[/i] You literally make money driving for business purposes if you get down to those levels.
Ford's F150 is going aluminium which is pretty popular iirc, so aluminium body work costs will probably drop quite a bit.
Some of the cost comes from how vehemently anti home wrench slinging tesla is. You cannot order many parts without being a certified shop. That's one of the reasons why I think tesla is overall a pretty scummy company.
Someone is going to get majorly pissed off and rip them apart in court over it eventually, just like what has happened to nearly every other major auto manufacturer.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50346272]Some of the cost comes from how vehemently anti home wrench slinging tesla is. You cannot order many parts without being a certified shop. That's one of the reasons why I think tesla is overall a pretty scummy company.
Someone is going to get majorly pissed off and rip them apart in court over it eventually, just like what has happened to nearly every other major auto manufacturer.[/QUOTE]
Tesla's are not exactly vehicles you can work on at home. Theres no bolt-on (replacement) parts, theres no fluids to change.
You're paying for a luxury vehicle. You expect the company to take care of you, which they do.
[url]http://skie.net/skynet/projects/tesla/view_post/14_Autopilot+Retrofit+on+Classic+P85[/url]
Just because an ICE gearhead doesn't know how to wrench on an EV, doesn't mean it's not doable. It requires a different set of skills.
[editline]18th May 2016[/editline]
(However, it's true that Teslas are not designed for this, and that guy is an expert Tesla hacker, known for finding all sorts of secrets and hints in the software)
[QUOTE=Code3Response;50346292]Tesla's are not exactly vehicles you can work on at home. Theres no bolt-on (replacement) parts, theres no fluids to change.
You're paying for a luxury vehicle. You expect the company to take care of you, which they do.[/QUOTE]
Luxury car or not, when the warranty expires, you have to pay for things, and an open market radically reduces costs, even if you personally aren't personally doing the work. Abundant parts available without restrictions are important to the long term success and value retention of a vehicle.
I could order a replacement door panel for a higher end mercedes and have it delivered to my house within a week. In fact, I've more or less done exactly that. A long time friend of the family got love tapped in a parking lot, we had the tools, and it was a fun weekend project that saved him a grand in labor that he just pocketed after the insurance settlement. You flat out cannot do that with a tesla currently. It must go through a handful of specific shops, which have insane markups.
There's been a few cases of people getting tagged by people who have minimal insurance polices that couldn't cover replacing a single quarter panel. If they didn't have comprehensive coverage, they wound up eating whatever that persons insurance didn't cover. In either case, that makes the car more expensive. Yeah, sure, you can sue someone, but good luck collecting that settlement. People with really shitty insurance tend not to be the same people as the ones who have money you can take.
[editline]18th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=OvB;50346321][url]http://skie.net/skynet/projects/tesla/view_post/14_Autopilot+Retrofit+on+Classic+P85[/url]
Just because an ICE gearhead doesn't know how to wrench on an EV, doesn't mean it's not doable. It requires a different set of skills.[/QUOTE]
That's actually quite impressive.
Technical stuff like this certainly is something I wouldn't want done by someone who isn't certified, but a swapping out a body panel is pretty straightforward.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;50346376]Luxury car or not, when the warranty expires, you have to pay for things, and an open market radically reduces costs, even if you personally aren't personally doing the work. Abundant parts available without restrictions are important to the long term success and value retention of a vehicle.
I could order a replacement door panel for a higher end mercedes and have it delivered to my house within a week. In fact, I've more or less done exactly that. A long time friend of the family got love tapped in a parking lot, we had the tools, and it was a fun weekend project that saved him a grand in labor that he just pocketed after the insurance settlement. You flat out cannot do that with a tesla currently. It must go through a handful of specific shops, which have insane markups.
There's been a few cases of people getting tagged by people who have minimal insurance polices that couldn't cover replacing a single quarter panel. If they didn't have comprehensive coverage, they wound up eating whatever that persons insurance didn't cover. In either case, that makes the car more expensive. Yeah, sure, you can sue someone, but good luck collecting that settlement. People with really shitty insurance tend not to be the same people as the ones who have money you can take.[/QUOTE]
You're preaching to the choir. I dont need to hear stories about getting replacement parts from mainstream luxury vehicles.
Give it time and you'll have your parts. The Tesla market is insanely small currently hence the no parts. If you want to work on your vehicle buy a mainstream vehicle. Dont buy a Tesla (yet).
This is just like people bitching about Windows 10 and how things "dont work" on it last year. Of course shit isnt going to work on it right away. Its new. Give it time, such as today, and things will work on it since everyone has time to develop their products.
I feel like scarcity of parts is due to how young the company is. I don't know how many spare body panels they make it of the stamping center and every vehicle is made to order. You have to go to a Tesla service center to get repairs so they can order the parts from the factory if needed, and also document issues for production QC. Once they ramp up to the desired 500k cars a year with the Model 3, I bet parts will be a lot easier to come by after they start saturating the market more. As of right now you can get a fair amount of parts off eBay or other sites/forums.
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